http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/ Fri, 30 Jul 2010 03:48:14 -0400 MyBB http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6571 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:24:07 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6571 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6570 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:26:34 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6570
When God created Adam, how old would he look, using modern scientific methods?

I fully realize this is hypothetical, because we can neither take our scientific knowledge and break into the garden of Eden, or pop him out of his grave and stick him in a test tube.

But indulge my riddle ... if we COULD take our scientific knowledge back to the Garden of Eden...

... and hook up Adam to our scientific equipment...

How old would our scientific equipment tells us Adam was, immediately after God created him?

I am going to call this Adam's Paradox, in advance. I look forward to an eye-opening discussion (that will inevitably end in name-calling and a big stand-off ... but we can always enjoy the ride in the meantime :P )]]>
When God created Adam, how old would he look, using modern scientific methods?

I fully realize this is hypothetical, because we can neither take our scientific knowledge and break into the garden of Eden, or pop him out of his grave and stick him in a test tube.

But indulge my riddle ... if we COULD take our scientific knowledge back to the Garden of Eden...

... and hook up Adam to our scientific equipment...

How old would our scientific equipment tells us Adam was, immediately after God created him?

I am going to call this Adam's Paradox, in advance. I look forward to an eye-opening discussion (that will inevitably end in name-calling and a big stand-off ... but we can always enjoy the ride in the meantime :P )]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6569 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:30:38 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6569
Psalm 32
Blessedness of Forgiveness and of Trust in God.
A Psalm of David.
1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away, Through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah.
5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
6Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.
7 You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go; I will counsel you with My eye upon you.
9 Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding, Whose trappings include bit and bridle to hold them in check, Otherwise they will not come near to you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked, But he who trusts in the LORD, lovingkindness shall surround him.
11 Be glad in the LORD and rejoice, you righteous ones; And shout for joy, all you who are upright in heart.[NASB]

:heartbeat: Our heavenly Father takes a special interest in His people and is personally involved in instructing us in 'the Way' ---

Psalm 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD;
Therefore He instructs sinners in the way.

Psalm 33:18
Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him,
On those who hope for His lovingkindness,

Psalm 34:15
The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous
And His ears are open to their cry.

Psalm 147:11
The LORD favors those who fear Him,
Those who wait for His lovingkindness.

One especially effective way God teaches us is through His Son's words and teachings ---

Mark 9:7
Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"

Another way God instructs us is through His Holy Spirit...

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

... and we also learn from each other ---

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


God bless you ALL! :grouphug:
With love from
Your sister in Christ, Willa :heartbeat:]]>
Psalm 32
Blessedness of Forgiveness and of Trust in God.
A Psalm of David.
1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away, Through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah.
5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
6Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.
7 You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble; You surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way which you should go; I will counsel you with My eye upon you.
9 Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding, Whose trappings include bit and bridle to hold them in check, Otherwise they will not come near to you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked, But he who trusts in the LORD, lovingkindness shall surround him.
11 Be glad in the LORD and rejoice, you righteous ones; And shout for joy, all you who are upright in heart.[NASB]

:heartbeat: Our heavenly Father takes a special interest in His people and is personally involved in instructing us in 'the Way' ---

Psalm 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD;
Therefore He instructs sinners in the way.

Psalm 33:18
Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him,
On those who hope for His lovingkindness,

Psalm 34:15
The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous
And His ears are open to their cry.

Psalm 147:11
The LORD favors those who fear Him,
Those who wait for His lovingkindness.

One especially effective way God teaches us is through His Son's words and teachings ---

Mark 9:7
Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"

Another way God instructs us is through His Holy Spirit...

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

... and we also learn from each other ---

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


God bless you ALL! :grouphug:
With love from
Your sister in Christ, Willa :heartbeat:]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6568 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:42:28 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6568
To illustrate, think of a piece of dynamite with a long fuse. What we presently see is a burning wick progressing toward its ultimate object—a blasting cap wrapped within the contents of an explosive. While some might guess the end result—until we see where the dynamite has been placed, we will never quite understand why it was necessary to light the fuse in the first place.

So as you begin to read Revelation, look for hints of a burning wick leading to a stick of dynamite in the ancient imperfect Hebrew tense—words such as chapter 1:17 where John was instructed to write “things that are—and the things that will take place after these.”

In this manner, the answer to Armageddon’s location and purpose is only hinted at along the way until chapter 11:18 where it is fully understood to resolve the issues of wrathful nations with God’s own wrath. It is to the end that the appointed time for the dead to be judged, reward his slaves the prophets and holy ones and all fearing his name, the small and great—he must first “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

And who are they that are ruining the earth? While it may seem to be us humans, it really goes much deeper, since chapter 12:9 states quite clearly they are those being hurled down to earth—Satan and his angels—they who are “misleading the entire inhabited earth.”

Does Armageddon rid the earth entirely? Well, is dynamite the end of a project? Only if the project is to destroy. But if it is merely to change landscape and clear out what stands in the way—then dynamite is only a means to the end.

To know the true length and present location of the burning Revelation Fuse, we need to continue reading—i.e. what Satan’s past and ongoing “misleading” of nations has resulted in as revealed through chapters13 and14 until chapter 15 says—until “the anger of God is brought to a finish.”

While some think it important to know where the dynamite is located, or that Armageddon is an actual location, chapter 16:14-16 seems to indicate it is of greater importance to know that demon spirits (“inspired expressions” as per NWT) are actually gathering the visible rulers of the entire earth to this great war. In other words, since the entire earth is involved, does it matter where it will be fought? Is it not suffice to know that Armageddon is the dynamite at the end of a long fuse—bringing to ruin “those ruining the earth?”

And while chapters 17 through 19 give in greater detail that which leads up to this world’s explosive end, it is not really until chapter 20 that we see—when the dust settles—the devil incapacitated beneath the rubble (called the abyss.) It is not until the end of a thousand years (the yet-to-be-disclosed period of reparation) do all of the devil’s contentious issues get sorted out and all are tested upon his release. Only then will the words of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 be completely fulfilled:

“But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. When Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life, and then the end will come. At that time Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers, and he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. Christ must rule until he puts all enemies under his control. The last enemy to be destroyed will be death. The Scripture says that God put all things under his control. When it says "all things" are under him, it is clear this does not include God himself. God is the One who put everything under his control. After everything has been put under the Son, then he will put himself under God, who had put all things under him. Then God will be the complete ruler over everything.” (New Century Version)]]>
To illustrate, think of a piece of dynamite with a long fuse. What we presently see is a burning wick progressing toward its ultimate object—a blasting cap wrapped within the contents of an explosive. While some might guess the end result—until we see where the dynamite has been placed, we will never quite understand why it was necessary to light the fuse in the first place.

So as you begin to read Revelation, look for hints of a burning wick leading to a stick of dynamite in the ancient imperfect Hebrew tense—words such as chapter 1:17 where John was instructed to write “things that are—and the things that will take place after these.”

In this manner, the answer to Armageddon’s location and purpose is only hinted at along the way until chapter 11:18 where it is fully understood to resolve the issues of wrathful nations with God’s own wrath. It is to the end that the appointed time for the dead to be judged, reward his slaves the prophets and holy ones and all fearing his name, the small and great—he must first “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

And who are they that are ruining the earth? While it may seem to be us humans, it really goes much deeper, since chapter 12:9 states quite clearly they are those being hurled down to earth—Satan and his angels—they who are “misleading the entire inhabited earth.”

Does Armageddon rid the earth entirely? Well, is dynamite the end of a project? Only if the project is to destroy. But if it is merely to change landscape and clear out what stands in the way—then dynamite is only a means to the end.

To know the true length and present location of the burning Revelation Fuse, we need to continue reading—i.e. what Satan’s past and ongoing “misleading” of nations has resulted in as revealed through chapters13 and14 until chapter 15 says—until “the anger of God is brought to a finish.”

While some think it important to know where the dynamite is located, or that Armageddon is an actual location, chapter 16:14-16 seems to indicate it is of greater importance to know that demon spirits (“inspired expressions” as per NWT) are actually gathering the visible rulers of the entire earth to this great war. In other words, since the entire earth is involved, does it matter where it will be fought? Is it not suffice to know that Armageddon is the dynamite at the end of a long fuse—bringing to ruin “those ruining the earth?”

And while chapters 17 through 19 give in greater detail that which leads up to this world’s explosive end, it is not really until chapter 20 that we see—when the dust settles—the devil incapacitated beneath the rubble (called the abyss.) It is not until the end of a thousand years (the yet-to-be-disclosed period of reparation) do all of the devil’s contentious issues get sorted out and all are tested upon his release. Only then will the words of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 be completely fulfilled:

“But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. When Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life, and then the end will come. At that time Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers, and he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. Christ must rule until he puts all enemies under his control. The last enemy to be destroyed will be death. The Scripture says that God put all things under his control. When it says "all things" are under him, it is clear this does not include God himself. God is the One who put everything under his control. After everything has been put under the Son, then he will put himself under God, who had put all things under him. Then God will be the complete ruler over everything.” (New Century Version)]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6567 Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:35:38 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6567
''You have heard it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,'' and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.' (21) :rose:

''But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!'' will be in danger of the fire of hell. (22) :rose:

''Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your
gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your borther, then come and offer your gift.'' (23-24) :rose:

These scriptures are under the heading of ''Murder'' and to me reads as a lesson in the more complete understanding of what constitutes murder--Jesus wanted his followers to understand that hatred is a form of murder and not to allow that to settle in one's heart. There should be no underestimating the importance of peace--and how that is a part of the foundation for love--which is the essence of our spirituality and relationships with God and Christ:heartbeat:
It is of the divine :heartbeat: just my opinion of course :heartbeat:

''Dear friends, we should love each other, because love comes
from God. Everyone who loves has become God's child and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love to us; He sent his one and only Son into the world so that we could have life through him. This is what real love is: It is not our love for God; it is GOd's love for us in sending his Son to be the way to take away our sins. Dear friends, if God loved us that much we should also love each other. No one has ever seen God, but if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is made perfect in us.'' 1 John 4: 7-12... :heartbeat:

I think this passage is life- altering. Once you understand and appreciate the love from God in sending Jesus how can one deny love for others. :heartbeat:

''And so we know the love that God has for us, and we trust that love.
God is love. Those who live in love live in God and God lives in them. We love because God first loved us.'' 1 John 4: 16, 19 :heartbeat:

''I pray that Christ will love in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love. And I pray that you and all God's holy people will have the power to understand the greatness of Christ's love---how wide and how long and how high and how deep that love is. Christ's love is greater than anyone can ever know, but I pray that you will be able to know that love. Then you can be filled with the fullness of God.'' Ephesians 3: 17-19 .... :rose:

It occurs to me :thinking: that being at peace --true Godly peace--lays the groundwork for Love--true Godly love :heartbeat: and that is a pretty special thing :heartbeat: :rose:

''So these three things continue forever: faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love.'' 1 Corinthians 13:13 :heartbeat::rose:



and finally :heartbeat:

''I leave you my peace; my peace I give you. I do not give it to you as the world does. So don't let your hearts be troubled or afraid.'' John 14:27 :rose:

''Do not worry about anything, put pray and ask God for everything you need, always giving thanks. And God's peace, which is so great we cannot understand it, will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.'' Philippians 4: 6-7 :rose: :rose:

Have a wonderful day today friends--love you all xxxxx]]>
''You have heard it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,'' and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.' (21) :rose:

''But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!'' will be in danger of the fire of hell. (22) :rose:

''Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your
gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your borther, then come and offer your gift.'' (23-24) :rose:

These scriptures are under the heading of ''Murder'' and to me reads as a lesson in the more complete understanding of what constitutes murder--Jesus wanted his followers to understand that hatred is a form of murder and not to allow that to settle in one's heart. There should be no underestimating the importance of peace--and how that is a part of the foundation for love--which is the essence of our spirituality and relationships with God and Christ:heartbeat:
It is of the divine :heartbeat: just my opinion of course :heartbeat:

''Dear friends, we should love each other, because love comes
from God. Everyone who loves has become God's child and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love to us; He sent his one and only Son into the world so that we could have life through him. This is what real love is: It is not our love for God; it is GOd's love for us in sending his Son to be the way to take away our sins. Dear friends, if God loved us that much we should also love each other. No one has ever seen God, but if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is made perfect in us.'' 1 John 4: 7-12... :heartbeat:

I think this passage is life- altering. Once you understand and appreciate the love from God in sending Jesus how can one deny love for others. :heartbeat:

''And so we know the love that God has for us, and we trust that love.
God is love. Those who live in love live in God and God lives in them. We love because God first loved us.'' 1 John 4: 16, 19 :heartbeat:

''I pray that Christ will love in your hearts by faith and that your life will be strong in love and be built on love. And I pray that you and all God's holy people will have the power to understand the greatness of Christ's love---how wide and how long and how high and how deep that love is. Christ's love is greater than anyone can ever know, but I pray that you will be able to know that love. Then you can be filled with the fullness of God.'' Ephesians 3: 17-19 .... :rose:

It occurs to me :thinking: that being at peace --true Godly peace--lays the groundwork for Love--true Godly love :heartbeat: and that is a pretty special thing :heartbeat: :rose:

''So these three things continue forever: faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love.'' 1 Corinthians 13:13 :heartbeat::rose:



and finally :heartbeat:

''I leave you my peace; my peace I give you. I do not give it to you as the world does. So don't let your hearts be troubled or afraid.'' John 14:27 :rose:

''Do not worry about anything, put pray and ask God for everything you need, always giving thanks. And God's peace, which is so great we cannot understand it, will keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.'' Philippians 4: 6-7 :rose: :rose:

Have a wonderful day today friends--love you all xxxxx]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6565 Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:38:40 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6565
"with 'eye for an eye' rule"

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/201...-uncovered


p.s. pleeze pray before clicking on any other links in this article for your own peace of mind, coz i did not read anything besides the main link.
Thank you!!!:grouphug::heartbeat:
sis]]>
"with 'eye for an eye' rule"

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/201...-uncovered


p.s. pleeze pray before clicking on any other links in this article for your own peace of mind, coz i did not read anything besides the main link.
Thank you!!!:grouphug::heartbeat:
sis]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6564 Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:37:46 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6564


Hows it going mates? :hug:


My wife and I went to see this movie last night -- and boy was it AWESOME!!! Now, I am a HUGE Sci-fi fan, and while this isnt a full on Sci-fi, it was just incredible!! I rate >> Inception ]]>


Hows it going mates? :hug:


My wife and I went to see this movie last night -- and boy was it AWESOME!!! Now, I am a HUGE Sci-fi fan, and while this isnt a full on Sci-fi, it was just incredible!! I rate >> Inception ]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6563 Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:29:47 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6563
Source : Black SheepJWN



Warm Christian Love
Bangalore]]>
Source : Black SheepJWN



Warm Christian Love
Bangalore]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6562 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:27:51 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6562

Soooooooo- those condeming us, please Enlighten us- what IS the 'Gospel'?]]>

Soooooooo- those condeming us, please Enlighten us- what IS the 'Gospel'?]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6561 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:35:17 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6561
It was a revelation to me when I discovered that Jesus referred to Jehovah as Dada, like a child does, and encouraged others to do likewise. It started me to think that perhaps God is not some permanently angry patriarchal figure in heaven who is remote and disinterested in us until or unless he is going to strike someone down for some apparently trivial reason. Leaning more about the personality of Jesus away from the WTs `works only might get one into life` mentality was also a welcome change to the stereotypical view of God. It was good to get away from the old testament story's of a God who seemed vengeful, petty and jealous. I was getting away from the type of fear that if I had tried to stop the ark of the covenant from falling over, I might get stuck down for it, with no possibility of grace, repentance, or a second chance to be good, as the old testament testifies happened.

The disparity between the personality of God in Jesus in the new testament and the many old testament story's of Gods personality became one of those topics people rarely discuss in an open and frank way. Certain questions hardly if ever get asked along these lines, and if they do, the answer almost always falls short of being convincing. For example, why is God calling in the old testament an abomination clothing made up of two different types of thread, when in the new testament Jesus says to not judge by the outward appearance? Such questions are hard to answer in any kind of simple way and many don`t even want to talk about it, which is of course understandable.

Of course one of the implications of what Jesus said in the new testament is that we need to pray honestly even about our doubts and most secret fears and issues. Apparently according to Jesus, God our Dada in heaven is even more concerned about our intellectual integrity that we are ourselves. This being the case important question needs to be confronted about such issues. Many cannot bring themselves to accept any kind of Christian God who does the kind of things seen in the old testament. The same goes for the Muslim or Jewish God. Christianity as a faith, is in fact unique of all the other faiths in one specific aspect. That of grace! Grace being a huge and wonderful concept encapsulating many things, least of all things like mercy and undeserved kindness. Certainly it doesn't include the death penalty for miner offenses. Even in the old testament, amid the other more disturbing story's, are in fact examples of reasonableness and proportional justice, along with examples of grace as well. Whats going on?

Of course if the new testament is focused on grace and mercy such questions can seem to become less relevant until they are almost forgotten. Even the book of Revelation can be safely dealt with and softened by assigning to it symbolic status. Then though we come to the story in the book of Acts of Ananias and Sapphira, and we feel as though we have just been transported back into old testament times.

From a surface reading of this passage found in Acts 5:1-11 it seems as though Gods spirit has executed a husband and wife for merely not giving all their own money to the early church
fund. Money that apparently they didn't have to give anyway and that they sold their house for. They gave some money away, apparently out of the generously of their hearts but kept some of their own money back. For this they die?

Then when one looks at the text closer, it seems that perhaps their sin was not the keeping of what was theirs anyway, and what they had worked hard for, but for telling a lie. Can we relax now with this bible passage as that as the explanation? I don`t think so because all of us including me have told lies. What was their lie anyway? The lie wasn't apparently even an outright one, but more of a case of not telling the whole truth. Ananias had sold his property and given this, his own money, to Peter, but not told Peter that it wasn't all of the money he had got for selling his own property. That doesn't seem like much of a sin. Would that not be like me deciding to give some money to some disaster fund, and so i go out and sell my watch because I haven't got enough money in my back account, but then decide to keep half of the money I got for the watch while giving the other half to the fund? I don`t know about anybody else, but if I did that, I would be really pleased with myself for being so generous.

Then after an even deeper reading of the text, it seems as though the sin was not just a deception, but perhaps some kind of attempt to get favor with the congregation on false pretenses. However the text says the deception was apparently to God and the holy spirit first and foremost. Unfortunately the text doest give much in the way of details, and we are left feeling like all those who heard what happened to both he and also his wife who were both struck down by God:

Act 5:11 And great fear seized the whole church and everyone else who heard about this.

It all harks back to the old testament God, who one can not easily feel at peace with, because we might catch him on bad day and get whacked for seemingly small sins we all commit from time to time. The text in Acts doesn't tell us the motive for their crime, or why it deserved the death penalty. It seems as though the holy spirit, rather than Peter executed the sentence. Perhaps the first time Peter is surprised when Ananias falls down dead. The second time he seems to anticipate the same fate for the wife when she walks in. Peter seems to give her a chance, by asking her if the property was sold for the amount given to the church? Peter perhaps is unsure of her guilt, but she confirms her husbands version of events, thus proving she was in on the deception. He predicts her death perhaps based on what had just happened to her husband three hours before, and she drops down dead.

I have always been troubled by this scripture. Some have chastised me for such a feeling, thinking that I am trying to turn God into some wuvy soft teddy bear God, quoting old testament examples of Gods ruthlessness as proof. To me though that doesn't seem quite right. Surly there must be some consistency with Gods personality?

A few night ago I had a bit of a realization, as I was drifting off to sleep, as to the motive and reason for the seriousness of the crime that Ananias and Sapphira apparently committed. Here are my thoughts:

Unlike today most first century women could not support themselves financially unless they had a man in their lives. It would be either a husband or father. Also orphans would not have been housed by social security. So if Christianity as a disapproved minority sect was ever to gain any kind of foothold, it would need a way of supporting all those who might need help. It seems reasonable that given the Jewish propensity to expel wives for any kind of ground, a wife found to have turned to Christianity would likely find her self out on the street, with no options other than to beg, or become a prostitute to survive. So a communal fund within the early Christian community would have been an essentiality. All the first Christians were Jewish, so this makes sense, and James says:

Jas 1:27 A religion that is pure and stainless in the sight of God the Father is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

We know that such a charitable fund did exist as Acts chapter 4 and 2 testifies as well as other places in the new testament:

Act 4:34 For none of them needed anything, because all who had land or houses would sell them and bring the money received for the things sold
Act 4:35 and lay it at the apostles' feet. Then it was distributed to anyone who needed it.
Act 4:36 Now Joseph, a Levite and a native of Cyprus, who was named Barnabas by the apostles (the name means "a son of encouragement"),
Act 4:37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 and they sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, according as any man had need.

So there is excellent evidence that the early Christians shared much into a community pot, so that all who were in need, such as orphans and widows, or women without a man for financial support could survive. It also helped spread Christianity, because who would want to join a faith that didn't care for its own.

With this background, it provides a few clues as to the possible real sin of Ananias and Sapphira and why it was so serious. I think they were con-artists. I believe that what they wanted to do was sell some of their property, and give a small enough amount from the proceeds that they felt they could get away with for no questions to be asked, to Peter, while keeping the rest, so that they could get charitable help from the communal pot themselves. So with the kudos they would have achieved for their generosity, they would have later claimed that they needed help while actually having loads in the bank as it were, and probably more besides.

If this was the case, they were literally robbing those most in need for their own greed, just like those pastors we hear about on the news, who swindle old lady's out of their life savings, but even worse than that because of the cultural norms of the time concerning women and orphans.

There is a little clue in the text that this might be the case:

Act 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold some property.
Act 5:2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back some of the money for himself and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 Peter asked, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back some of the money you got for the land?

In verse 1 the word property is used which is ktēma in Greek and strongs says this:

ktēma
ktay'-mah
From G2932; an acquirement, that is, estate: - possession.

In verse 3 the word land is used which is chōrion in Greek:

chōrion
kho-ree'-on
Diminutive of G5561; a spot or plot of ground: - field, land, parcel of ground, place, possession.

This is interesting because it could be that Peter is calling what they sold a spot. So perhaps this indicates that a much smaller amount was sold of their total property or estate than perhaps they had let on. If so it would be as if I were trying to con a communal religious group by joining them, and then selling one of a hundred houses that I owned of which they knew nothing about, and then only giving a small amount as possible for the one house they did know about so that no one suspects in order to make out I gave almost everything, and then asking for their charity for myself from the communal religious group, and living off that, while I secretly build my estate empire on their money, to support my day to day living expenses, while at the same time getting praised by them for my generosity allowing me to fleece them even more. A typical con artists scam.

This is partly speculation on my part, along with a night time insight, which seems to have some circumstantial support from the scriptures. The account in Acts chapter 5 doesn't itself seem to give a complete explanation on their motives anyway, so perhaps my speculation is correct. It is logical! It certainly helps to restore Gods mercy and reasonableness to me to the new testament at least, because if they were guilty to that degree, they would have in fact been guilty of killing the weak and vulnerable had they been able to get away with it. Not to mention slowing down the expansion of Christ message of mercy and grace to other people.

I wonder if some of the old testament stories that often seem so unreasonable and unloving have similar details left out or missed that would explain them better. Perhaps the disparity between the God of the old and new testaments can be dealt with and spoken about frankly with full understanding someday?

By the way I spent my evening writing this, so I hope I get some comments! :D]]>
It was a revelation to me when I discovered that Jesus referred to Jehovah as Dada, like a child does, and encouraged others to do likewise. It started me to think that perhaps God is not some permanently angry patriarchal figure in heaven who is remote and disinterested in us until or unless he is going to strike someone down for some apparently trivial reason. Leaning more about the personality of Jesus away from the WTs `works only might get one into life` mentality was also a welcome change to the stereotypical view of God. It was good to get away from the old testament story's of a God who seemed vengeful, petty and jealous. I was getting away from the type of fear that if I had tried to stop the ark of the covenant from falling over, I might get stuck down for it, with no possibility of grace, repentance, or a second chance to be good, as the old testament testifies happened.

The disparity between the personality of God in Jesus in the new testament and the many old testament story's of Gods personality became one of those topics people rarely discuss in an open and frank way. Certain questions hardly if ever get asked along these lines, and if they do, the answer almost always falls short of being convincing. For example, why is God calling in the old testament an abomination clothing made up of two different types of thread, when in the new testament Jesus says to not judge by the outward appearance? Such questions are hard to answer in any kind of simple way and many don`t even want to talk about it, which is of course understandable.

Of course one of the implications of what Jesus said in the new testament is that we need to pray honestly even about our doubts and most secret fears and issues. Apparently according to Jesus, God our Dada in heaven is even more concerned about our intellectual integrity that we are ourselves. This being the case important question needs to be confronted about such issues. Many cannot bring themselves to accept any kind of Christian God who does the kind of things seen in the old testament. The same goes for the Muslim or Jewish God. Christianity as a faith, is in fact unique of all the other faiths in one specific aspect. That of grace! Grace being a huge and wonderful concept encapsulating many things, least of all things like mercy and undeserved kindness. Certainly it doesn't include the death penalty for miner offenses. Even in the old testament, amid the other more disturbing story's, are in fact examples of reasonableness and proportional justice, along with examples of grace as well. Whats going on?

Of course if the new testament is focused on grace and mercy such questions can seem to become less relevant until they are almost forgotten. Even the book of Revelation can be safely dealt with and softened by assigning to it symbolic status. Then though we come to the story in the book of Acts of Ananias and Sapphira, and we feel as though we have just been transported back into old testament times.

From a surface reading of this passage found in Acts 5:1-11 it seems as though Gods spirit has executed a husband and wife for merely not giving all their own money to the early church
fund. Money that apparently they didn't have to give anyway and that they sold their house for. They gave some money away, apparently out of the generously of their hearts but kept some of their own money back. For this they die?

Then when one looks at the text closer, it seems that perhaps their sin was not the keeping of what was theirs anyway, and what they had worked hard for, but for telling a lie. Can we relax now with this bible passage as that as the explanation? I don`t think so because all of us including me have told lies. What was their lie anyway? The lie wasn't apparently even an outright one, but more of a case of not telling the whole truth. Ananias had sold his property and given this, his own money, to Peter, but not told Peter that it wasn't all of the money he had got for selling his own property. That doesn't seem like much of a sin. Would that not be like me deciding to give some money to some disaster fund, and so i go out and sell my watch because I haven't got enough money in my back account, but then decide to keep half of the money I got for the watch while giving the other half to the fund? I don`t know about anybody else, but if I did that, I would be really pleased with myself for being so generous.

Then after an even deeper reading of the text, it seems as though the sin was not just a deception, but perhaps some kind of attempt to get favor with the congregation on false pretenses. However the text says the deception was apparently to God and the holy spirit first and foremost. Unfortunately the text doest give much in the way of details, and we are left feeling like all those who heard what happened to both he and also his wife who were both struck down by God:

Act 5:11 And great fear seized the whole church and everyone else who heard about this.

It all harks back to the old testament God, who one can not easily feel at peace with, because we might catch him on bad day and get whacked for seemingly small sins we all commit from time to time. The text in Acts doesn't tell us the motive for their crime, or why it deserved the death penalty. It seems as though the holy spirit, rather than Peter executed the sentence. Perhaps the first time Peter is surprised when Ananias falls down dead. The second time he seems to anticipate the same fate for the wife when she walks in. Peter seems to give her a chance, by asking her if the property was sold for the amount given to the church? Peter perhaps is unsure of her guilt, but she confirms her husbands version of events, thus proving she was in on the deception. He predicts her death perhaps based on what had just happened to her husband three hours before, and she drops down dead.

I have always been troubled by this scripture. Some have chastised me for such a feeling, thinking that I am trying to turn God into some wuvy soft teddy bear God, quoting old testament examples of Gods ruthlessness as proof. To me though that doesn't seem quite right. Surly there must be some consistency with Gods personality?

A few night ago I had a bit of a realization, as I was drifting off to sleep, as to the motive and reason for the seriousness of the crime that Ananias and Sapphira apparently committed. Here are my thoughts:

Unlike today most first century women could not support themselves financially unless they had a man in their lives. It would be either a husband or father. Also orphans would not have been housed by social security. So if Christianity as a disapproved minority sect was ever to gain any kind of foothold, it would need a way of supporting all those who might need help. It seems reasonable that given the Jewish propensity to expel wives for any kind of ground, a wife found to have turned to Christianity would likely find her self out on the street, with no options other than to beg, or become a prostitute to survive. So a communal fund within the early Christian community would have been an essentiality. All the first Christians were Jewish, so this makes sense, and James says:

Jas 1:27 A religion that is pure and stainless in the sight of God the Father is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

We know that such a charitable fund did exist as Acts chapter 4 and 2 testifies as well as other places in the new testament:

Act 4:34 For none of them needed anything, because all who had land or houses would sell them and bring the money received for the things sold
Act 4:35 and lay it at the apostles' feet. Then it was distributed to anyone who needed it.
Act 4:36 Now Joseph, a Levite and a native of Cyprus, who was named Barnabas by the apostles (the name means "a son of encouragement"),
Act 4:37 sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 and they sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, according as any man had need.

So there is excellent evidence that the early Christians shared much into a community pot, so that all who were in need, such as orphans and widows, or women without a man for financial support could survive. It also helped spread Christianity, because who would want to join a faith that didn't care for its own.

With this background, it provides a few clues as to the possible real sin of Ananias and Sapphira and why it was so serious. I think they were con-artists. I believe that what they wanted to do was sell some of their property, and give a small enough amount from the proceeds that they felt they could get away with for no questions to be asked, to Peter, while keeping the rest, so that they could get charitable help from the communal pot themselves. So with the kudos they would have achieved for their generosity, they would have later claimed that they needed help while actually having loads in the bank as it were, and probably more besides.

If this was the case, they were literally robbing those most in need for their own greed, just like those pastors we hear about on the news, who swindle old lady's out of their life savings, but even worse than that because of the cultural norms of the time concerning women and orphans.

There is a little clue in the text that this might be the case:

Act 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold some property.
Act 5:2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back some of the money for himself and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Act 5:3 Peter asked, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back some of the money you got for the land?

In verse 1 the word property is used which is ktēma in Greek and strongs says this:

ktēma
ktay'-mah
From G2932; an acquirement, that is, estate: - possession.

In verse 3 the word land is used which is chōrion in Greek:

chōrion
kho-ree'-on
Diminutive of G5561; a spot or plot of ground: - field, land, parcel of ground, place, possession.

This is interesting because it could be that Peter is calling what they sold a spot. So perhaps this indicates that a much smaller amount was sold of their total property or estate than perhaps they had let on. If so it would be as if I were trying to con a communal religious group by joining them, and then selling one of a hundred houses that I owned of which they knew nothing about, and then only giving a small amount as possible for the one house they did know about so that no one suspects in order to make out I gave almost everything, and then asking for their charity for myself from the communal religious group, and living off that, while I secretly build my estate empire on their money, to support my day to day living expenses, while at the same time getting praised by them for my generosity allowing me to fleece them even more. A typical con artists scam.

This is partly speculation on my part, along with a night time insight, which seems to have some circumstantial support from the scriptures. The account in Acts chapter 5 doesn't itself seem to give a complete explanation on their motives anyway, so perhaps my speculation is correct. It is logical! It certainly helps to restore Gods mercy and reasonableness to me to the new testament at least, because if they were guilty to that degree, they would have in fact been guilty of killing the weak and vulnerable had they been able to get away with it. Not to mention slowing down the expansion of Christ message of mercy and grace to other people.

I wonder if some of the old testament stories that often seem so unreasonable and unloving have similar details left out or missed that would explain them better. Perhaps the disparity between the God of the old and new testaments can be dealt with and spoken about frankly with full understanding someday?

By the way I spent my evening writing this, so I hope I get some comments! :D]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6560 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:29:32 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6560
Philippians 2
Be Like Christ
1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
[...] work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life,

To be like Christ, our moral model - what a challenge! But with the help of God's spirit, His Son's invaluable examples and teachings, and our nurtured love for each other, it is, as are all things with God, possible!

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.

:heartbeat: John 13:13-17
"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them."

:heartbeat: Matthew 20:25-28
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;

Ephesians 5:21
and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

Romans 15:1-8
Self-denial on Behalf of Others
Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, "THE REPROACHES OF THOSE WHO REPROACHED YOU FELL ON ME." For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

:heartbeat: From me to you all, with love - Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

Your sister in faith, Willa :heartbeat:]]>
Philippians 2
Be Like Christ
1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
[...] work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life,

To be like Christ, our moral model - what a challenge! But with the help of God's spirit, His Son's invaluable examples and teachings, and our nurtured love for each other, it is, as are all things with God, possible!

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.

:heartbeat: John 13:13-17
"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them."

:heartbeat: Matthew 20:25-28
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;

Ephesians 5:21
and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

Romans 15:1-8
Self-denial on Behalf of Others
Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, "THE REPROACHES OF THOSE WHO REPROACHED YOU FELL ON ME." For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

:heartbeat: From me to you all, with love - Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13

Your sister in faith, Willa :heartbeat:]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6559 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 11:51:06 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6559 Quote:Collecting rainwater now illegal in many states as Big Government claims ownership over our water

Monday, July 26, 2010
by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
Editor of NaturalNews.com

Many of the freedoms we enjoy here in the U.S. are quickly eroding as the nation transforms from the land of the free into the land of the enslaved, but what I'm about to share with you takes the assault on our freedoms to a whole new level. You may not be aware of this, but many Western states, including Utah, Washington and Colorado, have long outlawed individuals from collecting rainwater on their own properties because, according to officials, that rain belongs to someone else.

As bizarre as it sounds, laws restricting property owners from "diverting" water that falls on their own homes and land have been on the books for quite some time in many Western states. Only recently, as droughts and renewed interest in water conservation methods have become more common, have individuals and business owners started butting heads with law enforcement over the practice of collecting rainwater for personal use.

Check out this YouTube video of a news report out of Salt Lake City, Utah, about the issue. It's illegal in Utah to divert rainwater without a valid water right, and Mark Miller of Mark Miller Toyota, found this out the hard way.



After constructing a large rainwater collection system at his new dealership to use for washing new cars, Miller found out that the project was actually an "unlawful diversion of rainwater." Even though it makes logical conservation sense to collect rainwater for this type of use since rain is scarce in Utah, it's still considered a violation of water rights which apparently belong exclusively to Utah's various government bodies.

"Utah's the second driest state in the nation. Our laws probably ought to catch up with that," explained Miller in response to the state's ridiculous rainwater collection ban.

Salt Lake City officials worked out a compromise with Miller and are now permitting him to use "their" rainwater, but the fact that individuals like Miller don't actually own the rainwater that falls on their property is a true indicator of what little freedom we actually have here in the U.S. (Access to the rainwater that falls on your own property seems to be a basic right, wouldn't you agree?)

Outlawing rainwater collection in other states
Utah isn't the only state with rainwater collection bans, either. Colorado and Washington also have rainwater collection restrictions that limit the free use of rainwater, but these restrictions vary among different areas of the states and legislators have passed some laws to help ease the restrictions.

In Colorado, two new laws were recently passed that exempt certain small-scale rainwater collection systems, like the kind people might install on their homes, from collection restrictions.

Prior to the passage of these laws, Douglas County, Colorado, conducted a study on how rainwater collection affects aquifer and groundwater supplies. The study revealed that letting people collect rainwater on their properties actually reduces demand from water facilities and improves conservation.

Personally, I don't think a study was even necessary to come to this obvious conclusion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that using rainwater instead of tap water is a smart and useful way to conserve this valuable resource, especially in areas like the West where drought is a major concern.

Additionally, the study revealed that only about three percent of Douglas County's precipitation ended up in the streams and rivers that are supposedly being robbed from by rainwater collectors. The other 97 percent either evaporated or seeped into the ground to be used by plants.

This hints at why bureaucrats can't really use the argument that collecting rainwater prevents that water from getting to where it was intended to go. So little of it actually makes it to the final destination that virtually every household could collect many rain barrels worth of rainwater and it would have practically no effect on the amount that ends up in streams and rivers.

It's all about control, really
As long as people remain unaware and uninformed about important issues, the government will continue to chip away at the freedoms we enjoy. The only reason these water restrictions are finally starting to change for the better is because people started to notice and they worked to do something to reverse the law.

Even though these laws restricting water collection have been on the books for more than 100 years in some cases, they're slowly being reversed thanks to efforts by citizens who have decided that enough is enough.

Because if we can't even freely collect the rain that falls all around us, then what, exactly, can we freely do? The rainwater issue highlights a serious overall problem in America today: diminishing freedom and increased government control.

Today, we've basically been reprogrammed to think that we need permission from the government to exercise our inalienable rights, when in fact the government is supposed to derive its power from us. The American Republic was designed so that government would serve the People to protect and uphold freedom and liberty. But increasingly, our own government is restricting people from their rights to engage in commonsense, fundamental actions such as collecting rainwater or buying raw milk from the farmer next door.

Today, we are living under a government that has slowly siphoned off our freedoms, only to occasionally grant us back a few limited ones under the pretense that they're doing us a benevolent favor.

Fight back against enslavement
As long as people believe their rights stem from the government (and not the other way around), they will always be enslaved. And whatever rights and freedoms we think we still have will be quickly eroded by a system of bureaucratic power that seeks only to expand its control.

Because the same argument that's now being used to restrict rainwater collection could, of course, be used to declare that you have no right to the air you breathe, either. After all, governments could declare that air to be somebody else's air, and then they could charge you an "air tax" or an "air royalty" and demand you pay money for every breath that keeps you alive.

Think it couldn't happen? Just give it time. The government already claims it owns your land and house, effectively. If you really think you own your home, just stop paying property taxes and see how long you still "own" it. Your county or city will seize it and then sell it to pay off your "tax debt." That proves who really owns it in the first place... and it's not you!

How about the question of who owns your body? According to the U.S. Patent & Trademark office, U.S. corporations and universities already own 20% of your genetic code. Your own body, they claim, is partially the property of someone else.

So if they own your land, your water and your body, how long before they claim to own your air, your mind and even your soul?

Unless we stand up against this tyranny, it will creep upon us, day after day, until we find ourselves totally enslaved by a world of corporate-government collusion where everything of value is owned by powerful corporations -- all enforced at gunpoint by local law enforcement.

]]> Quote:Collecting rainwater now illegal in many states as Big Government claims ownership over our water

Monday, July 26, 2010
by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger
Editor of NaturalNews.com

Many of the freedoms we enjoy here in the U.S. are quickly eroding as the nation transforms from the land of the free into the land of the enslaved, but what I'm about to share with you takes the assault on our freedoms to a whole new level. You may not be aware of this, but many Western states, including Utah, Washington and Colorado, have long outlawed individuals from collecting rainwater on their own properties because, according to officials, that rain belongs to someone else.

As bizarre as it sounds, laws restricting property owners from "diverting" water that falls on their own homes and land have been on the books for quite some time in many Western states. Only recently, as droughts and renewed interest in water conservation methods have become more common, have individuals and business owners started butting heads with law enforcement over the practice of collecting rainwater for personal use.

Check out this YouTube video of a news report out of Salt Lake City, Utah, about the issue. It's illegal in Utah to divert rainwater without a valid water right, and Mark Miller of Mark Miller Toyota, found this out the hard way.



After constructing a large rainwater collection system at his new dealership to use for washing new cars, Miller found out that the project was actually an "unlawful diversion of rainwater." Even though it makes logical conservation sense to collect rainwater for this type of use since rain is scarce in Utah, it's still considered a violation of water rights which apparently belong exclusively to Utah's various government bodies.

"Utah's the second driest state in the nation. Our laws probably ought to catch up with that," explained Miller in response to the state's ridiculous rainwater collection ban.

Salt Lake City officials worked out a compromise with Miller and are now permitting him to use "their" rainwater, but the fact that individuals like Miller don't actually own the rainwater that falls on their property is a true indicator of what little freedom we actually have here in the U.S. (Access to the rainwater that falls on your own property seems to be a basic right, wouldn't you agree?)

Outlawing rainwater collection in other states
Utah isn't the only state with rainwater collection bans, either. Colorado and Washington also have rainwater collection restrictions that limit the free use of rainwater, but these restrictions vary among different areas of the states and legislators have passed some laws to help ease the restrictions.

In Colorado, two new laws were recently passed that exempt certain small-scale rainwater collection systems, like the kind people might install on their homes, from collection restrictions.

Prior to the passage of these laws, Douglas County, Colorado, conducted a study on how rainwater collection affects aquifer and groundwater supplies. The study revealed that letting people collect rainwater on their properties actually reduces demand from water facilities and improves conservation.

Personally, I don't think a study was even necessary to come to this obvious conclusion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that using rainwater instead of tap water is a smart and useful way to conserve this valuable resource, especially in areas like the West where drought is a major concern.

Additionally, the study revealed that only about three percent of Douglas County's precipitation ended up in the streams and rivers that are supposedly being robbed from by rainwater collectors. The other 97 percent either evaporated or seeped into the ground to be used by plants.

This hints at why bureaucrats can't really use the argument that collecting rainwater prevents that water from getting to where it was intended to go. So little of it actually makes it to the final destination that virtually every household could collect many rain barrels worth of rainwater and it would have practically no effect on the amount that ends up in streams and rivers.

It's all about control, really
As long as people remain unaware and uninformed about important issues, the government will continue to chip away at the freedoms we enjoy. The only reason these water restrictions are finally starting to change for the better is because people started to notice and they worked to do something to reverse the law.

Even though these laws restricting water collection have been on the books for more than 100 years in some cases, they're slowly being reversed thanks to efforts by citizens who have decided that enough is enough.

Because if we can't even freely collect the rain that falls all around us, then what, exactly, can we freely do? The rainwater issue highlights a serious overall problem in America today: diminishing freedom and increased government control.

Today, we've basically been reprogrammed to think that we need permission from the government to exercise our inalienable rights, when in fact the government is supposed to derive its power from us. The American Republic was designed so that government would serve the People to protect and uphold freedom and liberty. But increasingly, our own government is restricting people from their rights to engage in commonsense, fundamental actions such as collecting rainwater or buying raw milk from the farmer next door.

Today, we are living under a government that has slowly siphoned off our freedoms, only to occasionally grant us back a few limited ones under the pretense that they're doing us a benevolent favor.

Fight back against enslavement
As long as people believe their rights stem from the government (and not the other way around), they will always be enslaved. And whatever rights and freedoms we think we still have will be quickly eroded by a system of bureaucratic power that seeks only to expand its control.

Because the same argument that's now being used to restrict rainwater collection could, of course, be used to declare that you have no right to the air you breathe, either. After all, governments could declare that air to be somebody else's air, and then they could charge you an "air tax" or an "air royalty" and demand you pay money for every breath that keeps you alive.

Think it couldn't happen? Just give it time. The government already claims it owns your land and house, effectively. If you really think you own your home, just stop paying property taxes and see how long you still "own" it. Your county or city will seize it and then sell it to pay off your "tax debt." That proves who really owns it in the first place... and it's not you!

How about the question of who owns your body? According to the U.S. Patent & Trademark office, U.S. corporations and universities already own 20% of your genetic code. Your own body, they claim, is partially the property of someone else.

So if they own your land, your water and your body, how long before they claim to own your air, your mind and even your soul?

Unless we stand up against this tyranny, it will creep upon us, day after day, until we find ourselves totally enslaved by a world of corporate-government collusion where everything of value is owned by powerful corporations -- all enforced at gunpoint by local law enforcement.

]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6558 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 06:57:00 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6558
Anja says : I was thinking if there is a link between those 2 names and the beginning of the barley harvest?
And i was thinking if the Book of Ruth can hide some prophecy?

All of us know that the name of Ruth and Naomi, however the name Boaz is known much less ,how come?

Although Boaz is the name of a protagonist in the book Ruth and also the name of one of the two major copper pillars in Salomon temple.
The left column was called Boaz, Jachin is the right column.
(1Kings 7:15-22, 3:15-17 2Chronicles).

The first time that Boaz is mentioned in the Bible he is related to the beginning of the barley harvest.
The beginning of the barley harvest coincides with the day of the Wave Sheaf.
It was on this day that Christ rose from the dead ... symbolized the first of the resurrection (Rom6:5,1Cor 15:20,John11:25,26)!
The name Boaz means in him is strength.
Indeed in Yeshua is strenght , power and resurrection.
(Ruth1:21(compare to 1Sam2:7) , Lev 23:9-15, 1 Corinthians 3:22,23 ).

It is tooled that Boaz came from Bethlehem.
Bethlehem means the house of bread were David came from, and of course the Son of David is the Living (barley) Bread was born in Bethlehem. (Ruth 2:4, John 6:9 compare to John 6:51, Micah 5:2,Math2:6)

Boaz was "a very rich man."
He was someone who is able to pay a big price.
Boaz is a type of Him who paid the ransom for ALL.
All humanity is bought and paid for and therefore the property of Christ.
Incidentally, Boaz did enter into the Book of Ruth as a type who paid a high price,it is a type of the great Redeemer.(Ruth 2:1,1Timotheüs 2:6)

The history of the prophetic book of Ruth refers to the fate of the Jewish people. From the Diaspora is the destitute and impoverished in the back country of the fathers . There you will find favor in the eyes of the Man of Bethlehem and this leads to an encounter on the threshing floor.

Eventually the Man of Bethlehem enters and payed off the lost so the original family can still returns to the land.
(Micah 4:10-13; 2Chronicles 3:1).

The name Jachin means "founder".
If a founder is known in the Bible, then it is God Himself.
Many times he says that He is the foundations of the earth,
(Zechariah 12:1, Genesis 1:1,10).
God is the foundation and Jerusalem would be made to a praise on earth.

Until today,it seems that the nations Israel is bound to this city Jeruzalem.And it has become the essence of the whole issue of the Middle East problem.....until ... they would say :
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."
( Isaiah 62:7, Zechariah 12:3, Matthew 11:39)

In Isaiah 9:7 we can read about the Messiah that He will sit on the throne of David. And great will be his power and endless peace is in that Kingdom because he invested the ground.

The zeal of the Lord will do this.
The promised Kingdom is not caused by a human hand.
Nor can it be prevented by a human hand,(Romans 4:24,25).

The two huge copper pillars in Solomon's temple were actually stylized pomegranate trees together with no less than four hundred fruits.
Emblems of fertility, of generating new life.
In the spring flowering trees such as one of the first.
Boaz and Jachin representing together a monumental reference to the new life (from the beginning of the barley harvest ...,1Kings 7:15-22, 3:15-17 2Chronicles)

Same which Solomon copper pomegranate trees put down in the Temple writes in "Song of Songs" that he will give his love, where the (red!) Grenades bloom.
Again, the association of shells (love) and community thus generating to new life.
The word for "grenade" in Hebrew (Rimmon) also means 'high'.
( Song of Songs 7:12,13)

Boaz and Jachin stand literally and figuratively for the entry and exit of the sanctuary.(Rev 11:3 compare to John 8:18 and 15-19,John7:36-40).

The priest in the house of God went passed these two columns.
In this image the two columns speak of Yeshua ever entered into the heavenly sanctuary and there in the near future He will come out again.
(is this what the diciples sow for the futere ? (Math17:2-9,10,11)

Boaz is the name of the left column and the name Jachin on the right column. Left and right are in the Bible (stand for humiliation and increase).

Think of the known distribution of the goats and sheep left right.(Math25:33)
Sitting on one's right is the highest honor one can receive.(Act7:56)
When we ignore someone means that we ignore such a person.
In English the word for "left" (left) the same word as 'leave'.

Right has priority (Matthew 25:33, Psalm 110:1).

The left column was to the south, while the right column to the north.
The symbolism and south are left more or less synonymous.
Like right and north are too.
Are south and north respectively for humiliation and increase.
We say: downstairs in the south and up is north.
On the night sky, we know both the Southern and the Northern Crown.
(compare 2Chronicles 4:10).

Boaz, the left column to the south, who speak from the humiliation of Christ rose from the dead (at the beginning of the barley harvest) and then entered into the heavenly sanctuary.

Jachin, the right column north, speaks of the exalted Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, which soon will come to His Kingdom .(Rev22:12-14)

The copper columns were cast in the West.
More specifically to the place where the water once stood still when the Israelites went through it .
They proceed through the (death) Jordan ,traditionally a symbol of death and resurrection and thus the emergence of new life.(John 3:5)
The crossing of the Jordan also took place(how can it be otherwise) ,at the beginning of the barley harvest!
( 1Kings 7:46, Joshua 3:16, Joshua 5:10-12).]]>
Anja says : I was thinking if there is a link between those 2 names and the beginning of the barley harvest?
And i was thinking if the Book of Ruth can hide some prophecy?

All of us know that the name of Ruth and Naomi, however the name Boaz is known much less ,how come?

Although Boaz is the name of a protagonist in the book Ruth and also the name of one of the two major copper pillars in Salomon temple.
The left column was called Boaz, Jachin is the right column.
(1Kings 7:15-22, 3:15-17 2Chronicles).

The first time that Boaz is mentioned in the Bible he is related to the beginning of the barley harvest.
The beginning of the barley harvest coincides with the day of the Wave Sheaf.
It was on this day that Christ rose from the dead ... symbolized the first of the resurrection (Rom6:5,1Cor 15:20,John11:25,26)!
The name Boaz means in him is strength.
Indeed in Yeshua is strenght , power and resurrection.
(Ruth1:21(compare to 1Sam2:7) , Lev 23:9-15, 1 Corinthians 3:22,23 ).

It is tooled that Boaz came from Bethlehem.
Bethlehem means the house of bread were David came from, and of course the Son of David is the Living (barley) Bread was born in Bethlehem. (Ruth 2:4, John 6:9 compare to John 6:51, Micah 5:2,Math2:6)

Boaz was "a very rich man."
He was someone who is able to pay a big price.
Boaz is a type of Him who paid the ransom for ALL.
All humanity is bought and paid for and therefore the property of Christ.
Incidentally, Boaz did enter into the Book of Ruth as a type who paid a high price,it is a type of the great Redeemer.(Ruth 2:1,1Timotheüs 2:6)

The history of the prophetic book of Ruth refers to the fate of the Jewish people. From the Diaspora is the destitute and impoverished in the back country of the fathers . There you will find favor in the eyes of the Man of Bethlehem and this leads to an encounter on the threshing floor.

Eventually the Man of Bethlehem enters and payed off the lost so the original family can still returns to the land.
(Micah 4:10-13; 2Chronicles 3:1).

The name Jachin means "founder".
If a founder is known in the Bible, then it is God Himself.
Many times he says that He is the foundations of the earth,
(Zechariah 12:1, Genesis 1:1,10).
God is the foundation and Jerusalem would be made to a praise on earth.

Until today,it seems that the nations Israel is bound to this city Jeruzalem.And it has become the essence of the whole issue of the Middle East problem.....until ... they would say :
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."
( Isaiah 62:7, Zechariah 12:3, Matthew 11:39)

In Isaiah 9:7 we can read about the Messiah that He will sit on the throne of David. And great will be his power and endless peace is in that Kingdom because he invested the ground.

The zeal of the Lord will do this.
The promised Kingdom is not caused by a human hand.
Nor can it be prevented by a human hand,(Romans 4:24,25).

The two huge copper pillars in Solomon's temple were actually stylized pomegranate trees together with no less than four hundred fruits.
Emblems of fertility, of generating new life.
In the spring flowering trees such as one of the first.
Boaz and Jachin representing together a monumental reference to the new life (from the beginning of the barley harvest ...,1Kings 7:15-22, 3:15-17 2Chronicles)

Same which Solomon copper pomegranate trees put down in the Temple writes in "Song of Songs" that he will give his love, where the (red!) Grenades bloom.
Again, the association of shells (love) and community thus generating to new life.
The word for "grenade" in Hebrew (Rimmon) also means 'high'.
( Song of Songs 7:12,13)

Boaz and Jachin stand literally and figuratively for the entry and exit of the sanctuary.(Rev 11:3 compare to John 8:18 and 15-19,John7:36-40).

The priest in the house of God went passed these two columns.
In this image the two columns speak of Yeshua ever entered into the heavenly sanctuary and there in the near future He will come out again.
(is this what the diciples sow for the futere ? (Math17:2-9,10,11)

Boaz is the name of the left column and the name Jachin on the right column. Left and right are in the Bible (stand for humiliation and increase).

Think of the known distribution of the goats and sheep left right.(Math25:33)
Sitting on one's right is the highest honor one can receive.(Act7:56)
When we ignore someone means that we ignore such a person.
In English the word for "left" (left) the same word as 'leave'.

Right has priority (Matthew 25:33, Psalm 110:1).

The left column was to the south, while the right column to the north.
The symbolism and south are left more or less synonymous.
Like right and north are too.
Are south and north respectively for humiliation and increase.
We say: downstairs in the south and up is north.
On the night sky, we know both the Southern and the Northern Crown.
(compare 2Chronicles 4:10).

Boaz, the left column to the south, who speak from the humiliation of Christ rose from the dead (at the beginning of the barley harvest) and then entered into the heavenly sanctuary.

Jachin, the right column north, speaks of the exalted Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, which soon will come to His Kingdom .(Rev22:12-14)

The copper columns were cast in the West.
More specifically to the place where the water once stood still when the Israelites went through it .
They proceed through the (death) Jordan ,traditionally a symbol of death and resurrection and thus the emergence of new life.(John 3:5)
The crossing of the Jordan also took place(how can it be otherwise) ,at the beginning of the barley harvest!
( 1Kings 7:46, Joshua 3:16, Joshua 5:10-12).]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6556 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 18:25:04 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6556
What a comforting thought in this scripture. God doesn't change
in his love--his mercy--his forgiveness and in his tender compassion.
As He was so is He now. To me this is a further expression of the Grace of God. :heartbeat: .... :rose:

''Then the LORD said to Moses, ''I will do what you ask, because I know you very well, and I am pleased with you.'' Then Moses said,
''Now, please show me your glory.'' The LORD answered, ''I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will announce my name, the LORD, so you can hear it. I will show kindness to anyone to whom I want to show kindness, and I will show mercy to anyone to whom
I want to show mercy.'' Exodus 33: 17-19 :rose:

''You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your care you watched over my life.'' Job 10:12
:rose:
''Lord, in your kindness you made my mountain safe. But when you turned away, I was frightened. I called to you, LORD, and asked you to have mercy on me.'' Psalm 30: 7-8
:rose:

''Because of his love, God had already decided to make us his own children through Christ Jesus. That was what he wanted and what pleased him, and it brings praise to God because of his wonderful grace. God gave that grace to us freely, in Christ, the One he loves. In Christ we are set free by the blood of his death, and so we have forgiveness of sins. How rich is God's grace.'' Ephesians 1: 5-7 :rose:
:rose: :rose: :rose:

''For whoever finds me (wisdom) finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.'' Proverbs 8:35 :rose:

''All these things are for you. And so the grace of God
that is being given to more and more people will bring
increasing thanks to God for his glory.''
2 Corinthians 4:15 :rose::rose:

''Let us, then, feel very sure that we can come before God's
throne where there is grace. There we can receive mercy and grace to help us when we need it.'' Hebrews 4:16 :rose:

Have a wonderful mid-summer evening friends--and remember :love:
God is Good :heartbeat: :rose: :rose:]]>
What a comforting thought in this scripture. God doesn't change
in his love--his mercy--his forgiveness and in his tender compassion.
As He was so is He now. To me this is a further expression of the Grace of God. :heartbeat: .... :rose:

''Then the LORD said to Moses, ''I will do what you ask, because I know you very well, and I am pleased with you.'' Then Moses said,
''Now, please show me your glory.'' The LORD answered, ''I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will announce my name, the LORD, so you can hear it. I will show kindness to anyone to whom I want to show kindness, and I will show mercy to anyone to whom
I want to show mercy.'' Exodus 33: 17-19 :rose:

''You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your care you watched over my life.'' Job 10:12
:rose:
''Lord, in your kindness you made my mountain safe. But when you turned away, I was frightened. I called to you, LORD, and asked you to have mercy on me.'' Psalm 30: 7-8
:rose:

''Because of his love, God had already decided to make us his own children through Christ Jesus. That was what he wanted and what pleased him, and it brings praise to God because of his wonderful grace. God gave that grace to us freely, in Christ, the One he loves. In Christ we are set free by the blood of his death, and so we have forgiveness of sins. How rich is God's grace.'' Ephesians 1: 5-7 :rose:
:rose: :rose: :rose:

''For whoever finds me (wisdom) finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.'' Proverbs 8:35 :rose:

''All these things are for you. And so the grace of God
that is being given to more and more people will bring
increasing thanks to God for his glory.''
2 Corinthians 4:15 :rose::rose:

''Let us, then, feel very sure that we can come before God's
throne where there is grace. There we can receive mercy and grace to help us when we need it.'' Hebrews 4:16 :rose:

Have a wonderful mid-summer evening friends--and remember :love:
God is Good :heartbeat: :rose: :rose:]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6557 Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:53:09 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6557 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6555 Sun, 25 Jul 2010 14:55:50 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6555
NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- Gaffe-prone BP Chief Executive Tony Hayward, under fire for his handling of the Gulf oil spill, is being replaced, a senior U.S. government official said Sunday.

An official announcement could come as early as Monday. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the announcement had not yet been made, was briefed on the decision by a senior BP official late last week.

The official did not know who would replace Hayward or when it would happen. One of the most likely successors is BP PLC Managing Director Bob Dudley, who is currently overseeing the British company's spill response.

BP's board would have to approve a change in company leadership.

Earlier Sunday, BP spokesman Toby Odone seemed to downplay media speculation about Hayward's departure, saying he "remains BP's chief executive, and he has the confidence of the board and senior management."

The news comes more than three months after an offshore drilling rig operated by the company exploded off Louisiana on April 20, killing 11 workers and setting off the spill. A temporary plug has stopped oil from spewing for more than a week now, but before that BP's busted well had spilled anywhere from 94 million to 184 million gallons into the Gulf.

BP has already spent roughly $4 billion on its response to the crisis. The final tally could be in the tens of billions of dollars.

Hayward became a lightning rod for public criticism as oil washed ashore and he made several gaffes that put him out of touch with the calamity unfolding in the Gulf. He initially downplayed the amount of crude gushing from the deep-sea well.

Later, as cleanup crews struggled to corral the massive spill, Hayward said he would "like my life back." Most recently, he was spotted attending a yacht race in England while Gulf fishermen kept their boats at the dock because of the oil in their waters.

Hayward, 53, has spent 28 years with the British oil giant. He took over the top spot in 2007 after a series of events including a fatal explosion at a Texas refinery and an oil spill off the Alaska coast, as well as accusations of misusing company resources, led to the ouster of John Browne.

Upon replacing Browne, Hayward promised to focus "like a laser" on safety. In June, members of Congress repeatedly reminded Hayward how empty that promise sounded with 11 workers dead, BP seemingly unprepared to contain the spill and a Congressional investigation indicating that officials put cost-savings ahead of safety in the days and hours before the rig explosion. BP hasn't completed its own investigation into the cause.]]>
NEW ORLEANS (AP) -- Gaffe-prone BP Chief Executive Tony Hayward, under fire for his handling of the Gulf oil spill, is being replaced, a senior U.S. government official said Sunday.

An official announcement could come as early as Monday. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the announcement had not yet been made, was briefed on the decision by a senior BP official late last week.

The official did not know who would replace Hayward or when it would happen. One of the most likely successors is BP PLC Managing Director Bob Dudley, who is currently overseeing the British company's spill response.

BP's board would have to approve a change in company leadership.

Earlier Sunday, BP spokesman Toby Odone seemed to downplay media speculation about Hayward's departure, saying he "remains BP's chief executive, and he has the confidence of the board and senior management."

The news comes more than three months after an offshore drilling rig operated by the company exploded off Louisiana on April 20, killing 11 workers and setting off the spill. A temporary plug has stopped oil from spewing for more than a week now, but before that BP's busted well had spilled anywhere from 94 million to 184 million gallons into the Gulf.

BP has already spent roughly $4 billion on its response to the crisis. The final tally could be in the tens of billions of dollars.

Hayward became a lightning rod for public criticism as oil washed ashore and he made several gaffes that put him out of touch with the calamity unfolding in the Gulf. He initially downplayed the amount of crude gushing from the deep-sea well.

Later, as cleanup crews struggled to corral the massive spill, Hayward said he would "like my life back." Most recently, he was spotted attending a yacht race in England while Gulf fishermen kept their boats at the dock because of the oil in their waters.

Hayward, 53, has spent 28 years with the British oil giant. He took over the top spot in 2007 after a series of events including a fatal explosion at a Texas refinery and an oil spill off the Alaska coast, as well as accusations of misusing company resources, led to the ouster of John Browne.

Upon replacing Browne, Hayward promised to focus "like a laser" on safety. In June, members of Congress repeatedly reminded Hayward how empty that promise sounded with 11 workers dead, BP seemingly unprepared to contain the spill and a Congressional investigation indicating that officials put cost-savings ahead of safety in the days and hours before the rig explosion. BP hasn't completed its own investigation into the cause.]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6554 Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:21:10 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6554
my name is Angelo. I am swiss/italian, and live in brazil. I am a born again, evangelical christian. I have a virtual library , which has the goal to organize and unite information and compelling evidence for the existence of the God of the bible

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/forum.htm

where i find quick responses to many relevant issues , which i use in diverse forums where i evangelize. Maibe some of you would like to use it as well, or even start some debate.

Angelo]]>
my name is Angelo. I am swiss/italian, and live in brazil. I am a born again, evangelical christian. I have a virtual library , which has the goal to organize and unite information and compelling evidence for the existence of the God of the bible

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/forum.htm

where i find quick responses to many relevant issues , which i use in diverse forums where i evangelize. Maibe some of you would like to use it as well, or even start some debate.

Angelo]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6553 Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:31:22 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6553
I have been talking to JW's in different areas, and one thing that seems to be pretty common is a lot of superstitious beliefs especially when it comes to demons and satan.

So I just wanted to ask why this is? All the talk about paganism and the power of demons is way out of proportion, so what's going on? :dontknow:

Thanks ahead of time.]]>
I have been talking to JW's in different areas, and one thing that seems to be pretty common is a lot of superstitious beliefs especially when it comes to demons and satan.

So I just wanted to ask why this is? All the talk about paganism and the power of demons is way out of proportion, so what's going on? :dontknow:

Thanks ahead of time.]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6552 Sun, 25 Jul 2010 09:45:17 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6552 8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Deuteronomy 10:20
"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name."

Lately I've been thinking deeply on the truth in these words of Jesus:

John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

John 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

Jesus is amazing in his teachings by emphasizing the characteristics of his Father in so many ways. He truly wants us to understand that our Father's works are all based on love. It's not about politics in the slightest, as he demonstrated in today's text by his words to the adversary. What God has said stands to time indefinite and no one is going to change it - His Plan is set and it's a Good one. Rather, Jesus glorified, exemplified, fulfilled and completed God's word!

:heartbeat: Matthew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Hosea 6:6
For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

:heartbeat: John 12:37-50
But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"(Isaiah 53:1) For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."(Isaiah 6:10) These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."


Love to you ALL from
Your sister in faith, Willa :heartbeat:]]> 8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
9 and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."
10 Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"
11 Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.

Deuteronomy 10:20
"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him, and you shall swear by His name."

Lately I've been thinking deeply on the truth in these words of Jesus:

John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

John 14:24
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."

Jesus is amazing in his teachings by emphasizing the characteristics of his Father in so many ways. He truly wants us to understand that our Father's works are all based on love. It's not about politics in the slightest, as he demonstrated in today's text by his words to the adversary. What God has said stands to time indefinite and no one is going to change it - His Plan is set and it's a Good one. Rather, Jesus glorified, exemplified, fulfilled and completed God's word!

:heartbeat: Matthew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Hosea 6:6
For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

:heartbeat: John 12:37-50
But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"(Isaiah 53:1) For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."(Isaiah 6:10) These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."


Love to you ALL from
Your sister in faith, Willa :heartbeat:]]> http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6551 Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:33:43 -0400 http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=6551
http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.c...dship.html

Jehovah’s Witnesses are indoctrinated through talks and publications of the Watchtower Society to recruit members. Their primary focus towards anyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness is to convert them. Although they will not out rightly say so, and will use such phrases as ‘encourage people to look into the Bible’, what they are really attempting is to ‘encourage people to interpret and understand the Bible according to the Watchtower Society’.

The sincerity and kindness they seemingly show can even be questioned when the true motives of such actions become apparent. Take for instance the teachings seen by Jehovah’s Witnesses as spiritual food in the November 15, 2009, Watchtower article with the theme, ‘Displaying Good Manners As A Minister Of God’. It covers pages 24-29 of the journal. Notice the admonition and what should be the true motive in making friends with those who are not members as noted in paragraph 10:

"Consider the case of a Christian couple named Tom and Carol, who live in a large North American city. They have made pleasant conversation with their neighbors a part of their ministry. How do they do it? Referring to James 3:18, Tom says: "We try to be friendly and peaceable with people. We approach those we see outside their homes and those who work in the area. We smile and greet them. We talk about what interests them--their children, their dogs, their homes, their jobs. In time, they view us as their friends." Carol adds: "On a later visit, we give them our names and ask for theirs. We let them know what we are doing in the neighborhood but keep the conversations brief. Eventually, we can give them a witness." Tom and Carol have won the confidence of many of their neighbors. A good number have accepted Bible-based publications, and a few have shown greater interest in learning the truth.”

The Jehovah’s Witnesses indoctrinated objective is not to be a sincere friend to those who are outside of the organization, but rather to give the appearance of one, so as to be able to preach to a person the Watchtower Society’s 'truth' - “give them a witness”. There may be a Jehovah's Witness you know that is a true friend despite this teaching of their leaders (Referred to by Jehovah’s Witnesses as 'The Governing Body'). Nonetheless, this is the message, the practice, and the so-called love Jehovah’s Witnesses are trained to show to those whom they label as ‘worldly people’.

Furthermore, remember the “Bible-based publications” mentioned in the quoted paragraph are more magazines, books and the like, that are published by the Watchtower Society. It is their interpretation and their twist on matters, which when accepted by an outsider, is seen as taking an interest in “the truth”. This so called 'truth' is the current or present truth as taught by the Watchtower Society. Remember though, that 'truth' can often change, this includes returning to an older belief they once had, as seen in the Watchtower Society’s teachings of ‘generation’ or the resurrection of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are in the bait and switch game, whether conscience of the fact or not. They bait or lure individuals under a false premise or pretense in order to ultimately make more converts under an organization in which they are programmed to perceive as 'the truth'. That victim is love bombed and praised by members for taking the bait. Once indoctrinated enough, a switch occurs ever so subtly and the person must be a loyal member to the organization, or else suffer at the very least mental and emotional anguish.

Fact of the matter is a game has been played on them by the Watchtower Society. It continues to be played now, as it has been played throughout the organization’s history. That same quoted paragraph appropriately stated the Jehovah’s Witnesses “won the confidence” of those around them. In the Watchtower Society’s game, they are trying to ‘win’ everybody’s confidence.

The Watchtower Society convinces individual members to believe they have choice, they have freedom, but the reality is the members are taught severe consequence; including the ingrained notion and belief that they will die eternally and fall out of God’s favor should they not follow the organization. The bait of choice and freedom is switched to a trap of the mind and heart.

The bait of a facade love and friendship is switched (realized or not), with a real guilt and fear. The consequence of either a literal or believed losing of everything and everyone, should you even attempt to no longer be a member of the organization. It is the ultimate bait and switch, encompassing the kind of friendship no one should be interested in having as part of their life.


Warm Christian Love
Bangalore]]>
http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.c...dship.html

Jehovah’s Witnesses are indoctrinated through talks and publications of the Watchtower Society to recruit members. Their primary focus towards anyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness is to convert them. Although they will not out rightly say so, and will use such phrases as ‘encourage people to look into the Bible’, what they are really attempting is to ‘encourage people to interpret and understand the Bible according to the Watchtower Society’.

The sincerity and kindness they seemingly show can even be questioned when the true motives of such actions become apparent. Take for instance the teachings seen by Jehovah’s Witnesses as spiritual food in the November 15, 2009, Watchtower article with the theme, ‘Displaying Good Manners As A Minister Of God’. It covers pages 24-29 of the journal. Notice the admonition and what should be the true motive in making friends with those who are not members as noted in paragraph 10:

"Consider the case of a Christian couple named Tom and Carol, who live in a large North American city. They have made pleasant conversation with their neighbors a part of their ministry. How do they do it? Referring to James 3:18, Tom says: "We try to be friendly and peaceable with people. We approach those we see outside their homes and those who work in the area. We smile and greet them. We talk about what interests them--their children, their dogs, their homes, their jobs. In time, they view us as their friends." Carol adds: "On a later visit, we give them our names and ask for theirs. We let them know what we are doing in the neighborhood but keep the conversations brief. Eventually, we can give them a witness." Tom and Carol have won the confidence of many of their neighbors. A good number have accepted Bible-based publications, and a few have shown greater interest in learning the truth.”

The Jehovah’s Witnesses indoctrinated objective is not to be a sincere friend to those who are outside of the organization, but rather to give the appearance of one, so as to be able to preach to a person the Watchtower Society’s 'truth' - “give them a witness”. There may be a Jehovah's Witness you know that is a true friend despite this teaching of their leaders (Referred to by Jehovah’s Witnesses as 'The Governing Body'). Nonetheless, this is the message, the practice, and the so-called love Jehovah’s Witnesses are trained to show to those whom they label as ‘worldly people’.

Furthermore, remember the “Bible-based publications” mentioned in the quoted paragraph are more magazines, books and the like, that are published by the Watchtower Society. It is their interpretation and their twist on matters, which when accepted by an outsider, is seen as taking an interest in “the truth”. This so called 'truth' is the current or present truth as taught by the Watchtower Society. Remember though, that 'truth' can often change, this includes returning to an older belief they once had, as seen in the Watchtower Society’s teachings of ‘generation’ or the resurrection of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are in the bait and switch game, whether conscience of the fact or not. They bait or lure individuals under a false premise or pretense in order to ultimately make more converts under an organization in which they are programmed to perceive as 'the truth'. That victim is love bombed and praised by members for taking the bait. Once indoctrinated enough, a switch occurs ever so subtly and the person must be a loyal member to the organization, or else suffer at the very least mental and emotional anguish.

Fact of the matter is a game has been played on them by the Watchtower Society. It continues to be played now, as it has been played throughout the organization’s history. That same quoted paragraph appropriately stated the Jehovah’s Witnesses “won the confidence” of those around them. In the Watchtower Society’s game, they are trying to ‘win’ everybody’s confidence.

The Watchtower Society convinces individual members to believe they have choice, they have freedom, but the reality is the members are taught severe consequence; including the ingrained notion and belief that they will die eternally and fall out of God’s favor should they not follow the organization. The bait of choice and freedom is switched to a trap of the mind and heart.

The bait of a facade love and friendship is switched (realized or not), with a real guilt and fear. The consequence of either a literal or believed losing of everything and everyone, should you even attempt to no longer be a member of the organization. It is the ultimate bait and switch, encompassing the kind of friendship no one should be interested in having as part of their life.


Warm Christian Love
Bangalore]]>