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Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...
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Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

"Although kept out of the news for several years, bankruptcy has been the Sword of Damocles hanging over the head of the Watch Tower Society of NY. In early January, its board of directors agreed to sever all ties with its governing body of spiritual advisors and consider options for the future of the church.

"In May of this year, Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code to reorganize its business was rejected by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission necessitating Chapter 7 to be deployed wherein the company will stop all operations and go completely out of business.

"Due to this unusual motion of the Federal Agency, a trustee has yet appointed since no liquidation of an internationally run U.S. religious institution has thus far been processed ..."


:thumbsup:Okay, it was just an old "War of the Worlds" radio play. We're all still safe.

But what if? And what if after such an event an internet blog appeared announcing the "reorganization of the faithful." It might read something like:

"We, the once oppressed members of the governing body, writing committees, service committees, etc., are now making a plea for the reorganization of the brotherhood without any legal incorporation ... but as Christ's flock.

"We have long recognized the error of incorporation along with the insidious indoctrination of sincere worshippers of our great God Jehovah who seek mediation through His Son and only redeemer, Christ.

"We further renounce the main doctrine of error, to wit: that there is no faithful slave standing as intercessor since 1919 and will not exist until Christ returns in his glory and appoints such in what manner He sees fit.

"So until this time, we will be forming an alliance with other Bible Students so that we can more unitedly, and with God's spirit, be moved ahead as true brothers and sisters in Christ. May our heavenly Father, Jehovah bless this new arrangement through his Son and only Lord over us, Jesus."


Just one of those "What if?" thoughts running through my head.:headbang:

Love,

sw


"What cannot be understood is no object of belief.” Isaac Newton.
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08-11-2008 01:55 PM
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spiceant
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

i think your what if is as a fantasy as the idea to turn this entire board membership into bhuddists hindus and mystiks. I do not think that is going to happen in our lifetimes.

08-11-2008 03:47 PM
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AlienResident
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Hi SW, :hibye:


The three most vicious lies are told on the following occassions.

1) before election,

2) during war,

3) after hunting.

The Watchtower has no need to be elected, nor to go to war, nor to hunt. Yet, it has committed the most vicious lie I ever heard.

The people inside the Watchtower need to understand one fact. Cowards may stand up after the war is concluded. But patriots are born while it is being fought.

:heartbeat:

AR


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.- MLK

08-11-2008 04:15 PM
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

AlienResident Wrote:
Hi SW, :hibye:


The three most vicious lies are told on the following occassions.

1) before election,

2) during war,

3) after hunting.

The Watchtower has no need to be elected, nor to go to war, nor to hunt. Yet, it has committed the most vicious lie I ever heard.

The people inside the Watchtower need to understand one fact. Cowards may stand up after the war is concluded. But patriots are born while it is being fought.

:heartbeat:

AR

And all the patriots were traitors (i.e. martyred) before the war was won? :giverose: sw


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08-11-2008 10:34 PM
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Dear AlienResident:

Clarification. When the internal battles of a civil war rage, the ones struggling for reform are called traitors. Only when the traitors have won and the rulers have changed do they become patriots.

My point in raising this thread is to discuss whether we are as loving as we profess to be. To be loving is to be forgiving. Christ died not only to save sinners but left a legacy of the same sacrifical compassion, just as he said, "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another."

Maybe I struggle with this commandment while searching for it in myself and others because when Jesus said "one another" he meant those who collectively struggle to be loving toward each other just as he was. In fact he said this love would take on such remarkable proportions that "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:34, 35)

Spirituality is a very personal thing. But for it to be truly Christian it must seek a brotherhood that includes an observable number willing to die for itself. But if it doesn't know itself, how will it die for itself?

Just thinking :thinking:,

sw


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08-12-2008 01:05 PM
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e-magine
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Don't, stop SW! thinking that is........:friends:


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Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
08-12-2008 02:49 PM
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gogh
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Howdy SW

Since the first century, have all footstep followers of our Master been recognized by all men as such?

Is this happening, or even possible, in our time/today?

Or, have/do these ones (disciples of Jesus),.....led/lead inconspicuous lives, humbly endeavoring to worship YHVH in spirit and in truth...never in the "limelight"...never being noted/recognized/ as ones to follow because of special insight or charisma. The love among such ones would only be discernible by all those that were motivated to observe...possibly at a certain time? (....not "all men" in the sense of everyone, everywhere...at all times.)

(Re: ""By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:34, 35)" Might "all" (also/as well),be referencing those that are looking for other like minded/hearted individuals...therefore followers of our Lord recognize...each other?)

Maybe it is not such a matter of "remarkable proportions"...YET?

Will there come a time when the love among Jesus brothers becomes unmistakably observable!?! (Scripture says.."will know" or "will recognize"...not "be known" or "be recognized")...indicating possibly a time when all will know?

Might this scripture in some way support clarification on the topic?...

1Peter 2:11...

" Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

(There seems to be a reference as to the timing of being recognized as Jesus followers having love among themselves...."day of visitation"/ inspection)

(....Just thinking :dontknow:...as well....grin)

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
08-12-2008 03:14 PM
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AlienResident
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Dear SW,

Please don´t take my reply as a personal attack on you. It was not meant to be that. I consider you neither a traitor nor a coward, because I know that you are someone who know what he is doing, to which traitors and cowards aren´t capable of.

The way I see it, the brotherly love we so fondly talk of should not be restricted to those with whom we parochialistically attach ourselves, but must encompass all those who call on the name of our Lord and savior. We need to humble ourselves and accept the fact that we are just not above others, but only one of the multitude. I acknowledge such a fight within ourselves.

Having said that, I´m of the opinion that the "civil war" you mentioned is non existent. The scriptures talk of a different kind of war that is being waged in another realm, with us as combatants, whether we realize it or not. Ephesians 6:12 comes to mind.

:heartbeat:

AR


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.- MLK

08-12-2008 04:28 PM
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

gogh Wrote:
Is this happening, or even possible, in our time/today?

1Peter 2:11...

" Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

(There seems to be a reference as to the timing of being recognized as Jesus followers having love among themselves...."day of visitation"/ inspection)

Hi gogh and e-magine! Yes, perhaps this 'God's day of visitation.' may be linked to Jesus words in Matthew 24:30-31, "And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

Thinking further on this, it would seem to precede Matthew 25:31-33, “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."

But it still raises the question when Jesus concludes with each group, "To the extent that you did (or did not) do it to one of these least ones (of these my brothers), you did not do it to me."

How are we to know for a certainty who Jesus' brothers are? Now I know all the televangelical answers, but these are obscurely political, commercial and pleasingly all-inclusive as is everything televangelists say.

So deep within myself gnaws away this community search that all must share some sort of brotherhood with Jesus. But who? And how is it that neither sheep nor goat knew that they had or hadn't done the things that brought either reward or sentence upon themselves?

My biggest problem is that of those I meet who are too ready to profess their faith are also too ready to obscure the candor and honesty contained in the inspired word. This also goes with Paul's words, in Galatians 6:10, "So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. Are we part of this "household of the faith?"

Yes, e-m, I will go on thinking :thinking: It's a curse.
:heartbeat:
sw


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08-12-2008 05:15 PM
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

AlienResident Wrote:
Having said that, I´m of the opinion that the "civil war" you mentioned is non existent.

In a spiritual sense, yes. Unless the mind is the magistrate and the heart is the people and the traitor is sin ... well that's another struggle isn't it? May the good side win! :thumbup: Come Lord Jesus! :thumbsup:
:heartbeat:
sw


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08-12-2008 05:27 PM
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gogh
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Hi SW

Re: "And how is it that neither sheep nor goat knew that they had or hadn't done the things that brought either reward or sentence upon themselves?"

Might the sheep not be aware of help they render because of having good motive (endeavouring to worship in spirit and truth)...in contrast to the goats not being aware of the need?

Would it not be reasonable to conclude that the declared sheep had a like attitude/motive as Paul...

2 Corinthians 12:21...

"I am afraid that when I come my God may again humble me before you and that I may have to grieve over many who formerly lived in sin and have not repented of their impurity, sexual immorality, and promiscuity that they once practiced."

...unlike/dissimilar to the declared goats who did not "grieve over many" and did not "sigh and groan"..."over all the detestable things that are being done..." (Ezekial 9: 4 - 6 )

Matthew 7:21...

"Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"

Motive is the determining factor.....only YHVH through our Leader, our Lord Jesus read motive...

.02,

Christian love,

gogh


"......."This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Keep listening to him!" Luke 9:35
08-12-2008 07:54 PM
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freyd
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

This is a great thread. :drinking:


Is 58:13,14 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day....then you will find your joy in Yahweh...." bibletoday.com, yrm.org, beholdthebeast.com, thereligionofpeace.com, http://www.v-a.com, eliyah.com,messianic-torah-truth-seeker.org,
08-13-2008 10:02 AM
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brendan
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Hi All,

When I first wondered why the Christian love I had hoped for wasn’t to be seen, I got the explanation that this was due to the fact that we were living in the last days, and so we were at the lowest point in human imperfection, being about as far away as we could get from the perfection at the beginning of human history.

So time has nullified Jesus’ prophesy, and if He had been more insightful, He might have realised that it was just asking too much.

So there was good reason to be less than loving in the congregations, and if we were particular nasty in any way, we could always fall back on the activities of the congregation in Corinth to show that the love Jesus spoke about wasn’t being practised even then.

Regards,
Brendan

08-15-2008 10:46 AM
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

brendan Wrote:
So there was good reason to be less than loving in the congregations, and if we were particular nasty in any way, we could always fall back on the activities of the congregation in Corinth to show that the love Jesus spoke about wasn’t being practised even then.

Hi Brendan, and I was thinking along the same lines and Paul's words to Corinth that if the gifts of the spirit were incomplete back then, and seem even less complete today, we who seem less inspired have little to show for our claim to Christianity.

And how many times were we reminded that the prophets of old didn't get the fulfillment of the promises and yet remained faithful to the death? How much more should we, the less inspired ones, but who have the inspired writings, endure? But my faith is waining since the end didn't come as the first century epistles proclaimed. All true Christians died or went into hiding when falsehood raised its ugly head and turned to persecute the humble.

Maybe I'm too pragmatic for wanting to see something in action today. Really though, how am I to love my brother if so few are around to be loved? ... unless love is all about giving and waiting for a response? for which I have so little to show and still so few friends that I can call real friends (not that I wanted that many), and yet Jesus said "you my friends if you do what I am commanding you," and "I have called you friends, because all the things I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." So I look around and wonder, Do I know for a certainty? And in what way have I been appointed "to go on and keep bearing fruit" so that no matter what I ask the Father in his name he might give it to me? (John 15:14-16)

So when Jesus said if you love those loving you, what reward do you have since the sinners (tax collectors are doing the same)? Then I read Paul's first letter to the Corinthians a little closer and ask, Why are we so much further away from unity, and the lack of which he bemoaned while the end still never came?

It is now becoming my greatest doubt ... this end that seems endlessly away, indeed a test to us all who once believed in things that shortly must take place!

Oh but patience! :thinking:

:heartbeat:sw


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08-15-2008 06:18 PM
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brendan
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RE: Watch Tower Society declares bankruptcy ...

Hi sw,

It seems that we are truly caught between a rock and a hard place, with all the certainties whipped out from under us, mostly by our own doing. Life in the wilderness is not comfortable. Neither is living in a religion but having an independent mind on the doctrines. The JWs and the first-century Christians had one thing in common, I think. I’m saying ‘had’ because many of the JWS must be thinking more long-term now. But the motivation to leave their worldly desires behind and reach out for a prize that was soon to come was a beautiful concept. Nobody wanted to think in terms of drudgery, repetition, boredom, uncertainty etc. The Christian faith has dragged on for 2000 years and the Watchtower religion almost 100 years longer than was originally expected, longer if you back to their expectations about 1874. Some of us bemoaned the lack of love in the congregation; now we also bemoan the lack of a congregation to moan in. Things sure look bleak, but who knows, they may be falling into place in a wonderful way. We might be the sheep scattered by the callousness of the spiritual shepherds in mainstream Christianity, and our Lord will come for us in His time. Perhaps there is a concern that when they said “Will He really find the faith on the earth” at his return, we think in terms of loving congregations waiting with open arms for their Master. Maybe it will be a bit more like the first time, when anyone committed to the Lord was a ‘stranger in his own backyard’.

For me, we have two choices that would be genuine:

Dig deeper
Give it up as a bad investment, despite the work put in over the years

The Eastern religions (with their New Age off-shoot in the West) and Islam understand spiritual completeness as submission. We view this as doctrinally wrong and fanatical.”Come under my yoke” says Jesus. “I will Lord, I say “but let me take my constitutional rights along with me!” ”Leave the world behind and follow me” says Jesus, and millions have taken Jesus up on His offer, but only nominally.

The mystics always encouraged people to lose their ‘selves’ to see themselves as part of the whole creation. Jesus said” He who loses his life in this world will gain it”.

Now that’s commitment! But the WS, while seemingly a harsh taskmaster, running us ragged with meetings and service and study, took a huge body of work from our shoulders – they were the only ones who needed to follow Jesus to the death – we would be fine if we just supported their commitment to Jesus. So we never knew anything at all about being ‘baptised into His death’. To be fair to the WS, I was raised a Roman Catholic and never heard a word about it there either.

This is the clincher - dead to the things behind, walking in His spirit. There is a good article relating to the lack of love in congregations and the corresponding lack of spirit on the Christian Millenial website .( http://www.cmfellowship.org/docs/editors...vingby.htm). It’s probably too Trinitarian in its view of the spirit, but I think the points raised are quite interesting. This article is mostly about letting go too, in this case of law-works and placing full reliance on spirit instead.

If we ran due to persecution in our day, we would not be alone. But the spirit rises up in people in these circumstances, spirit-fuelled adrenalin to find the courage to stay faithful. I think the reason for the success of genuine Christianity under persecution is that it makes the word of God more pertinent and makes the spirit of man very apparent in all its nastiness.

Paul reckoned that the nastiness in the congregation of Corinth could at least serve one purpose – it would allow the good guys the opportunity to go through a time of test and come out with strong characters because of it. So I think we must only leave God and his Christ if we are 100% positive that the relationship we had with them is over or never really existed at all. Paul knew we all have to deal with this, a life of communion with the invisible, ups and downs, exhaustion….

I think we can only work with what we have – whether some brothers and sisters in the real world, online Christians, and the world of unbelievers who can be amazed at the difference real Christianity makes. I think it is harder to measure our fruit these days now that the structures are gone for many of us. But we were never comfortable with meeting attendance and study hours as the measure of a Christian. I trust it is our lives as a whole that are measured and not just outward appearance. I remember thinking that real friendship, for me, went out in the 80s. Without a doubt, real conversation among my friends did, as caution and political correctness began to work their way into the meetings of friends that had been very animated and genuine before.

But we have to die to our selves and what we feel are our needs, go under that yoke completely, and come out with the spirit to see for ourselves what it can do. To be fair to the spirit, it isn’t given a fair chance to show its power.

If, after we dig deep into our Christian consciousness and no joy comes from it, and there is no certainty that God is deeply involved with us in this world, I say we should chuck it in as a losing proposition and carve out whatever might be left for us in this rapidly deteriorating world. It is just too hard to continue on without joy, but we are told it is a gift that is there for the asking.

I’ll bet you’re in it for the long term! I’ll also bet that I’ve probably superimposed my concerns on to you and misunderstood a lot of what you wrote. I hope some of it is helpful, even if only to say “I think about these things too”.

Regards,
Brendan.

08-15-2008 09:10 PM
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