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The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Artcritic - 01-04-2010 07:31 AM


A History of Watchtower Cowardliness and Witness perseverance
Watchtower Society's photos of the 1933 Berlin Convention.
Awake!, July 8, 1998, p. 13.

A historical analysis of the Jehovah's Witnesses' during World War II concluded that they experienced extreme conflicts with Nazi Germany and probably withstood the attacks against them better than most groups. Their experience has been analyzed by a number of researchers including camp inmates and administrators who have concluded that their strong religious faith, community and social pressure to conform were all critical in helping Witnesses to withstand the Nazi assault against them. A major reason Witnesses endured was because to capitulate to the Nazis meant disfellowshipping and cutting off from what was often their only social support, their fellow Witnesses. Often the Witnesses as people showed exemplary behavior, but the Watchtower administration not uncommonly displayed immoral or deceitful behavior and even denigrated the Jews in an effort to save the German Watchtower branch. Although partly to blame for the tragedy, the Watchtower unscrupulously exploits it today to try to prove their claim of being God's only representatives on earth today.

Link below
http://www.seanet.com/~raines/conflicts.html


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Wibble - 01-04-2010 09:18 AM

Artcritic Wrote:

A History of Watchtower Cowardliness and Witness perseverance
Watchtower Society's photos of the 1933 Berlin Convention.
Awake!, July 8, 1998, p. 13.

A historical analysis of the Jehovah's Witnesses' during World War II concluded that they experienced extreme conflicts with Nazi Germany and probably withstood the attacks against them better than most groups. Their experience has been analyzed by a number of researchers including camp inmates and administrators who have concluded that their strong religious faith, community and social pressure to conform were all critical in helping Witnesses to withstand the Nazi assault against them. A major reason Witnesses endured was because to capitulate to the Nazis meant disfellowshipping and cutting off from what was often their only social support, their fellow Witnesses. Often the Witnesses as people showed exemplary behavior, but the Watchtower administration not uncommonly displayed immoral or deceitful behavior and even denigrated the Jews in an effort to save the German Watchtower branch. Although partly to blame for the tragedy, the Watchtower unscrupulously exploits it today to try to prove their claim of being God's only representatives on earth today.

Link below
http://www.seanet.com/~raines/conflicts.html


More lies coming out of Christendom who are trying to cover up their own SHAMEFUL behaviour.

They would rather attack decent Christians who chose to go to the concentration camps alongside the Jews rather than to obey Hitler like all the other Churches were doing.

What a disgusting and cowardly thing to do Artcritic.

You are a disgusting coward to use lies in this way to feed your sick hatred of Jehovah's people.

According to an independent report:

== Quote: Journal of Church & State 1999 Baylor University ==

When the entire text of the Declaration of 25 June 1933 and the letter to Hitler are seen today in the context of the history of Jehovah's Witnesses during the period of National Socialism in Germany and the history of their religious resistance and their stand during the Holocaust, then the text does not present itself as an "antisemitic statement" or an attempt at "currying the favor" of Hitler. These accusations, stemming from present-day church circles, are deliberate manipulations and falsifications of history, seemingly motivated by guilt over the churches' own involvement or lack or involvement in the persecutions.

== By Yonan, Gabriele ==

Gabriele Yonan (B.A., Humboldt University, Berlin; M.A., University of Osnabruck; Ph.D., University of Haifa) is currently reader and counselor at the Institute of the Max Planck Society for Promoting Science and Education, Berlin, Germany.


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Bangalore - 01-04-2010 10:25 AM

Entire text of the "Declaration Of Facts" at the thread can be seen in this post.

http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/showthread.php?tid=3033

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Artcritic - 01-04-2010 12:10 PM



WIBBLE Dr. Bergman can be contacted at the following address if you have any questions or comments about his papers

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D
Northwest State College
22-600 State Rt. 34
Archbold, OH. 43502-9542
USA


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Beau Wetini - 01-04-2010 05:55 PM

Wibble Wrote:
More lies coming out of Christendom who are trying to cover up their own SHAMEFUL behaviour.

They would rather attack decent Christians who chose to go to the concentration camps alongside the Jews rather than to obey Hitler like all the other Churches were doing.

What a disgusting and cowardly thing to do Artcritic.

You are a disgusting coward to use lies in this way to feed your sick hatred of Jehovah's people.



Oh settle down, Wooo-bull. First post in a long time, and you come out guns blazing for the Watchtower (not surprising...). If you take off your Watchtower blinders, you will see that Artcritic is not defaming those who actually DID take a stand...but rather, those who DIDNT, but take the glory!


Artcritics posting doesnt negate the experiences of the "rank and file" who were persecuted, and did stand for their faith in Jehovah -- rather, it is talking about the REAL disgusting cowards....the buggers in charge! You know, the man-inspired goobers who write vomit while passing it off for spiritual truth from Jehovahs mouth.

Of course, in the minds of the "faithful", the buggers in charge are free of all blame and all reproach! As usual, Watchtower defenders, particularly those of YOUR calibre, will stop at nothing to keep "God's Organisation" free from any wrongdoing.


Oh....and welcome back mate! Havent seen you in a long time! Where have you been? :friends::friends::friends:



RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Interpretum - 01-04-2010 06:22 PM

It's funny, but reading their declaration, while sounding a bit anti-Jewish (equating them to big business and bankers), is only really saying what a lot of people who believe in the New World Order are themselves saying today :D


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Resolute - 01-05-2010 12:05 PM

Hey Wibble:hibye:

You've been away for awhile and perhaps have forgotten that, unlike some forums, we at the paradise cafe do not insult one another. Calling a member a disgusting coward is not the way to express our objection to their view. Besides...it does nothing for your argument.

I've looked in on some boards where the insults fly like snow. But please, not here!

:siskiss:Rez


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - BruisedReed - 01-05-2010 02:00 PM

Hi all ... :hibye:

Thanks for the link to the complete declaration Bangalore ... I just read through it and made side notes of some of the comments made in it that I wondered about ...

One thing I did notice was that they WERE seeking to 'distance' themselves, IMHO from the Jewish people ... but why ...? :dontknow:

Should there concern not be for the injustice of EVERYONE who was suffering no matter the reason? Would not our innate humanity and our supposed Christianity kick in so as to seek to say that they shouldn't be doing such horrendous things to ANYONE?

Anyway ... here are some quotes that I made note of and made some comments to ... if I have misread or misapplied someone can of course bring it to my attention ... yes even you wibble dear brother ... :friends:

“By the term ‘clergy’, as used in our literature, reference is made to the class of professed religious teachers, priests and Jesuits who employ improper political means to accomplish their ends and pin forces even with those who deny God and the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the same class to whom Jesus referred as his persecutors. We have no criticism of any honest religious teacher.

Would not their later involvement in various political means, especially their close involvement with the ‘wild beast’, NGO, being ‘emplying IMPROPER POLICTICAL MEANS to ‘accomplish their ends?

“When Jesus went to the Jews to tell them of the truth, it was the Jewish clergy, that is to say, the Pharisees and priests, that violently opposed him and persecuted him and caused him to be charged with all manner of crimes and offenses. They refused to hear the truth, and addressing them Jesus said: “Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.’ (John 8: 43-45) Although the Pharisees and priests then claimed to represent Jehovah God Jesus told them that they were in fact the representatives of Satan the Devil.

Why bring out this particular scripture at this time and in reference to their being persecuted? Is it because they are saying that since their ‘father is the devil’ that they ‘deserved’ to be persecuted? Or are they insinuating in some way that the Jews were behind the persecution of our brothers and and sisters back then? Not sure what the 'real meaning' is behind these words ... and I guess only the writer knows for for sure.

As true followers of Christ Jesus we are to expect such opposition, and we mention it here in explanation of why we have been misrepresented before the rulers of this nation. To his faithful followers Jesus said: ‘Remember the word I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they [the false religious teachers] have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.’ (John 15: 20) Furthermore, Jesus said that this same class of men would cause his true followers to be wrongfully charged before the ruling powers, his language being: ‘But take heed to yourselves: for they [false religious teachers] shall deliver you up to councils [police power]; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.’ (Mark 13: 9)

“It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ Jesus and believe upon Him as the Savior of the world, whereas the Jews entirely reject Jesus Christ and emphatically deny that he is the Savior of the world sent of God for man’s good. This of itself should be sufficient proof to show that we receive no support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy.


So is the society saying here that there were absolutely no Jewish people that had come to learn about Christ Jesus coming and him being the source of our salvation, being converted to ‘Christianity’ from the late 1800’s to 1933? And if they were now brothers and sister who were now Christians that they had never contributed to the preaching work through various voluntary donations?

“Our organization is not political in any sense.

NGO involvement anyone?


“Our organization seeks neither money nor members, but we are a company or organized body of Christian people engaged solely in the benevolent work of teaching the Word of God to the people at the least possible cost to them.

Hmmm if it doesn’t ‘seek money’, then why over the years has it continued to ask for donations for various things from its member … albeit ‘voluntary’ ones … ?

Hmmm if doesn’t ‘seek member’, then why would we even bother to go from door to door, or telephone witness, or letter write hoping that people would ‘leave their evil way’ to come ‘into the truth’?


Instead of collecting money from the people and using the same to erect great buildings and to support men in luxury, we print the gospel message of God’s kingdom and carry it to the homes of the people that they may, at the least inconvenience to themselves, gain a knowledge of God’s purposes concerning them.

Hmmm is this quite true? Does not the ‘money that is collected’ go to building various facilities, bethels, home, printing places, convention centers, kingdom halls, etc. Now as to their ‘great’ … well they may not be like the huge churches, but the ones I have seen most certainly contain all the ‘best’ that money can buy. And indeed our brother may not ‘live in luxury’ in their one room apartments, however they ARE ‘surrounded’ in luxurious things that most of our brothers who are not so fortunate to ‘live’ and ‘work’ in the various ‘printing’ facilities all over the world.

For many years our organization has put forth an unselfish and persistent effort to do good to the people. Our American brethren have greatly assisted in the work in Germany, and with money freely contributed, and that at a time when all Germany was in dire distress.


Hmmm I wonder to which ‘good to the people’ they are referring to when Germany was in ‘dire distress’? To me this is rather ‘misleading’ as the ones reading this would ‘assume’ (at least to my way of thinking) that they would mean help in material ways and such. ‘We’ know that they are referring to ‘preaching’ and ‘saving lives’ as they say this is the most important thing we can do for mankind … but what about the practical ways of helping as well? To me this a kind of playing with words that causes one to believe one thing when in actuality they are possibly saying something quite different.

Well, these are just some of the thoughts I had on this declaration ... :blush:

Either way you put it ... what the Nazis were guilty of was unconscionable to ANYONE ... be they 'witnesses' or not ... and to try to 'pacify' them when they should have been REJOICING TO BE SUFFERING and then seek to put them over the suffering of others is rather not nice to my way of thinking anyway ... :giverose:

Luv to ALL ... whether 'witness', 'exwitness' or not ... :happyheart::friends::grouphug:

BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Interpretum - 01-05-2010 02:19 PM

Hi Ms Reed :D

I like your analysis. Bear in mind, we're talking 1933 here, so it's not always the best idea to compare JWs of today with JWs of the 1930's (i.e. the NGO affair).

Also, Hitler had only just come to power in 1933, so there weren't such a thing as concentration camps or any of the later monstrosities. Jews were persecuted (Hitler had already made clear his racial intentions in his book), but I'm not sure they were rounded off to concentration camps yet. There were Jewish ghettos before the concentration camps. This is perhaps why the Society perhaps felt at the time it was better to distance themselves from the Jews.

That being said, I still feel there is a certain feeling of compromise in the tone of the Society, which seemed to be pandering to Hitler's racial ideology.

Anyway, I guess it didn't work... :shocked:


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Interpretum - 01-05-2010 02:23 PM

Another thing... when did the Society change their view about the Jews? Russell was a Zionist, and believed strongly that the Jews would be restored back to their homeland.

As far as I can tell, this viewpoint continued after Russell's death... but was it the 1930's that this changed?

If so, I wonder if Hitler's activities had anything to do with Rutherford changing his mind about the Jews?

I'd like to think not (personally, I believe Russell was far more accurate than Rutherford), but the timing of WTS reversal of belief about the Jews would be interesting to compare with this episode of pandering to Hitler's views on the Jews.


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - smoldering wick - 01-05-2010 02:29 PM

Quote:
A major reason Witnesses endured was because to capitulate to the Nazis meant disfellowshipping and cutting off from what was often their only social support, their fellow Witnesses.

The dynamics between Rutherford's political issues with Hitler and those forced into the trenches to suffer were quite different.

Hitler brought it to a head when he said: Renounce your association with the Bible Students and put on a uniform. Otherwise, you will be imprisioned, tortured, and executed. I doubt the rank and file were sufficiently informed regarding Rutherford's communications with Hitler. Disfellowshipping would've been the furthest thing from their minds.

Historical writers always put their own spin on history. It's the way they interpret it. The writer had to actually be there to know it.

My opinion,

sw


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Bangalore - 01-06-2010 06:46 AM

Scans Of The Declaration Of Facts. In German.




Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Bangalore - 01-06-2010 06:47 AM




Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Bangalore - 01-06-2010 06:48 AM





Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Bangalore - 01-06-2010 06:48 AM



Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Wibble - 06-27-2010 12:04 PM

Quote:
Dr. Gabriele Yonan, Religious Scientist, Free University, Berlin:
"When the entire text of the June 25, 1933 'Declaration of Facts,' along with the letter to Hitler is, in retrospect, put into the context of the history of Jehovah's Witnesses during the Nazi regime, their resistance, and the Holocaust, it consequently has nothing to do with 'antisemitic statements and currying favor with Hitler.' These accusations made by today's church circles are deliberate manipulations and historical misrepresentations, and their obvious motivation is the discomfort of a moral inferiority. At the time of the convention [of Jehovah's Witnesses in Berlin, on June 25, 1933], as well as later, governments, statesmen, and diplomats from all countries negotiated with Hitler and demonstrated their respect and reverence for him. In 1936, even when thousands had already been imprisoned in concentration camps-among the first of whom were Jehovah's Witnesses-the international Olympic Games took place in Berlin under the swastika." - "Am mutigsten waren immer wieder die Zeugen Jehovas." Verfolgung und Widerstand der Zeugen Jehovas im Nationalsozialismus, published by historian Hans Hesse, Bremen, 1998, page 395




RE: The Watchtower's Nazis Conflicts - Willa - 06-27-2010 08:35 PM

Wibble Wrote:
At the time of the convention [of Jehovah's Witnesses in Berlin, on June 25, 1933], as well as later, governments, statesmen, and diplomats from all countries negotiated with Hitler and demonstrated their respect and reverence for him.


Well, since everyone else was doing it, I guess it was OK! Especially the "respect and reverence" part... and remember - this letter was sent before anyone was interred in the concentration camps, so currying political favor from the up-and-coming new German leader was, again - more than OK!

:scratchhead::thinking:

Luke 12:29 "And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying. 30 For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things. 31 But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

John 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.