Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Everyone,

I've been reading all your discussions with interest.

This is something I've been thinking about for a while.

Take any square mile in a jungle and its an absolute war zone, looking at the creation it's full of barbaric cruelty. My questions to myself about this are: -

If I were a God of love and were to sit down and design animals, would I make them as they are now, knowing the suffering and cruelty I was designing in to them?

Why does the bible prophesy about peace in the animal kingdom as well as in the human realm?

Why were Adam and eve in a protective realm of paradise and outside was different, why not make it all like that?

Why test Adam and Eve with the tree, what was happening before for it to come to that. Are we to suppose that the Angels had previously had their own test before the creation of man?

I can’t help but think that the rebellion didn't start at the inception of man; I think there was a lot more going on before hand.

What do you folks think?

Hello there chuffdaddy ...:D:hibye: hope you have been well ...

Interesting questions ... wish I had the answers ...:giverose:

I would like though to say a wee bit something though ...

WERE the animals outside the park cruel and meat eater BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned I would have to ponder ...

For if they were to EXTEND to park ... to encompass the globe ... then they WOULD have to go outside ... and it wouldn't make sense to me that Jehovah would be putting them in DANGER for doing what he had commanded them ...

Gen. 1:28 ...

28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

IMHO ... if the animals were 'wild' or 'dangerous' to Adam and Eve ... then how would they be 'in subjection' or 'subdued' ... and even if they 'weren't' ... at that time ... (which doesn't seem to make sense to me but then what's new ...;)) by the Scriptures saying that they WOULD shows that that was the INTENT of Jehovah to have in regard to man and animals doesn't it ...?

Is it not possible that AFTER Adam and Eve sinned they caused an IMBALANCE in everything around them ... including the animal kingdom ... for the ground had become 'cursed' ... not producing the 'crops' in the way they would have been if Jehovah's continued 'blessing' were upon them ...?:(

When it comes to people thinking of our beautiful and majestic tigers, lions, cheetahs, bears (well maybe not sooo beautiful ... but definitely awe-inspiring especially when they stand ... their odor is pretty 'majestic' though ...;)) and so on ... it seems that their claws and fangs were used for ripping into large plants and such originally ... then something happened and they became 'meat eaters' ... at least that it what I have read anyway ...:redface:

Anyway ... this is just something to get you going ...

As to 'the SATAN' being used in 'creation' ... well I wouldn't think if he was that he would have been 'satan' at the time ...:P;)

Luv to you and yours ... your sis ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Dear ChuffDaddy
I met that question square on in my youth 55 years ago.

YHWH is the fountain of life but this dualistic approach in thinking satan created predators is really quite untenable.

I have had a lifelong interest in all things avian.

The nature of our world without 'man the spiritual steward' of the planet has always been like it is today.  There has never been planetary stewardship by man...stewardship existed only in Eden in a limited area.


In the New Earth it may well be different.

We live in the best of all possible worlds made for us by the Creator and I believe this includes the need for animals to kill each other.

The subject you raised is an emotive subject and many do not understand the need for the cycle of nature.  Some can be hurt by the reality of a world "red in tooth and claw".

If you want to continue with this subject ChuffDaddy I suggest you ask admin if it is ok?  Some of the things I say some may find hard to resolve with their present perception of the natural world.

Warm Christian love
Derek

Hi BruisedReed and Derek,

I dont mean to shake anyones faith in the creator, or imply that satan was used in the creation of the world.

My point is that cruelty and suffering are endemic in the design of animals.

I merely suggest that maybe, the issue of universal soverienty was a battleground before adam and eve and that maybe even the creation was.

Kindest Regards

Dear ChuffDaddy,

You get me wrong brother, this world wouldn't be here without a Creator!

I wrote this view of creation from a believing naturalists perspective c.2 years ago on World Crossings XJW site:

You and many may be missing the point as to why animals kill each other.

Peter said about men being like unreasoning animals that are naturally there to be caught and destroyed. (My paraphrase)

There are several reasons I believe the Creator set the Earth up in this way:

It hones all species so that they are healthy and can adapt to changing conditions (some call it micro evolution) and then they fill every niche in the whole spectrum of the varied and varying environment of our planet over the millennia.

It creates a beautiful changing tapestry of biodiversity that brings benefits and pleasure to man and pleases God.

It weeds out the weak, sickly and injured so they do not generally live in a lingering painful state. Their bodies go back into the food chain (food pyramid) at some point to produce other healthy creatures.

Without predation there would be much more suffering in the natural world! If herbivores were allowed to breed unchecked eventually all the food would be eaten - lack of food would cause mass starvation. Extremely large numbers of one kind of animal (large or small) would damage the web of life and have detrimental effects on biodiversity.

God is also a God of the flora of the planet as well! Flora would disappear. The Earth stripped of cover would probably result in desertification! Not even Solomon was arrayed like the humble lily’s raiment, said Jesus. This is all part of the beautiful canvass 'painted' by the Creator that would be diminished if predation did not occur.

We must keep sentimental views in balance but also remember that Jesus said his Father "sees even the fall of a sparrow!"

The Earth is made like this because Yahweh loves us. It is in all creatures’ best interests!

The way some people think the Earth should be would require constant ‘tweaking’ by the Creator to keep everything in balance. But He made everything in self-sustaining loops (cycles) and it is well designed with basically a ‘hands off’ approach. Would you want a television that you had to constantly go to and ‘tweak’ to get a good picture?

Hi Derek,

Basically I think you are right, after all Jehovah did pronounce the creative works "good" when he finished them.

I don't see another way equilibrium can be maintained if one species is allowed to dominate and destroy all the others.

I posed this question because a friend of mine asked me about it, I'm not sentimental myself but can understand where he is coming from.

Kindest Regards.

Greetings ChuffDaddy

This scripture is assuring...

Genesis 1:31...

"After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good."

You have used terms such as "barbaric cruelty"...etc.

To be cruel, imo, one must have a capacity of motive.

YHWH's animal creation is descibed as being created instinctively wise...

Proverbs 30:24..."There are four things that are the smallest of the earth, but they are instinctively wise:..."

I marvel at YHWH's Creation, as to how incredibly perfect it is (as long as man does not interfere). The ant eater is an example of creative perfection. So the spider is also an efficient "killer"....not really barbarically cruel...hungry, thats all...grin.

Christian love,

gogh

I've often wondered about the suffering and sometimes apparent cruelty in the animal kingdom, you know, even cute little cats can be very cruel to cute little birds sometimes :blackcat: :birds: (finally an excuse to use those cat and bird smilies!)

The Lord's Witnesses have some interesting views on some of this stuff, like; how they believe Satan was the the firstborn son of God but lost his birthright to Jesus, not sure about a lot of their ideas (the less said about their dates the better :whistle:), but their reasoning on this particular doctrine is quite compelling, though I'm still not quite convinced.

Agape Johnny

Hi Chuffdaddy

I pondered this question once, and thought I came up with all this "evidence" that Satan messed things up long before Eden, perhaps causing Jehovah to bring about the cataclysmic event that wiped out the dinosaurs. But then I found this scripture, which I think kinda says it all:

Ezekiel 28:12 You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 In E´den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys´o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

This, for me, brings to mind the nature versus nuture discussion. Creation, the initial creation, is over, but creation never ends. People are born each and everyday with the potential for change, and because of the influences we are living under we have become a race of people of good and evil. In the latter Satan, the temptator no doubt had a part, as did our free will to choose from either plate at that critcal moment in our lives. But though the initial world may not have had this taint, in time the new creation that has been outpouring everyday must work through that taint. So though Satan may not have a hand to play in initial creation I do believe that he can scuplt that which was once given shape by God. :devil:

Though, your statement does bring one thing to mind, I always thought it was a scripture (or at least, I was taught it was, but in trying to find it online, in the bible, etc, I failed) was "the bat is the devil's bird"...I was going to use it, but the fact I can't find it and must now come to the realization it may not be in the scriptures forces me to recede and think again, and then call my mother in an upset manner. :P

Dear Friends,

I wrote this on another, a UK forum...the reaction of the literalist believer is rather 'interesting' :)
There would be severe cognitive dissonance problems for me to believe as N. does in seeing the creation designed with foreknowledge of sin in mind. Having all predators eating green vegetation for the literal days that elapsed until man sinned on the sixth 24 hour day.
Derek


Quote:

D. That great wonder of the avian creation the Peregrine: Did God design the Peregrine Falcon to stoop at near 200 miles an hour to pick plums off fruit trees?

N.
Quote D. :
That great wonder of the avian creation the Peregrine: Did God design the Peregrine Falcon to stoop at near 200 miles an hour to pick plums off fruit trees? (end quote)

N.
Or the lion to eat grass like the Ox?? - It was once the case and one day will so again according to the prophet Isaiah.

The Peregrine simply points to God's omniscience and future planning for a fallen world not to evolution. (end of quote)


_________________

For myself, I have to agree that the food-chain will continue.

Right now, we imagine that a paradise would mean that no animals would eat any other animals. But is this really feasible, or practical? It has been brought up that if all the animals were herbivores, there would be no population control by predators, and that the world could not produce enough vegetation to support every lifeform on earth if they were all vegetarian.

Right now, we think of the foodchain as being vicious, evil. But was it always that way? Before Adam and Eve "knew right from wrong", did they think the natural cycle of animals eating other animals was "cruel"? Or did they leave the judgement up to Jehovah? Are we, in trying to determine right from wrong, putting ourselves in God's shoes and declaring something cruel and inhumane that which he has declared "good"?

Right now, the world is divided on the vegetarian/carnivore subject. But didn't Jehovah give us all the animals to eat, declaring them clean? Where would humans get the idea to eat animals- but from watching them eat each other? After all, at the first barbecue, Jehovah enjoyed the "restful odor" of burning flesh. Oh, and some guy named Cain killed his brother. I wonder why the WTBTS never condemns barbecues???!!!:D;):P

Well, that is just my opinion, but I have never found the cycle of nature cruel and inhumane- just different. After all, its not like the animals can think and feel hurt or victimized. That is purely human anthropomorphism- attributing human emotions to that which is incapable of human emotion. And yes, that is the correct spelling!;)

Just throwin' my :2cents: into the mix!

Much love to all my fellow omnivores!:drinking:
Sis Micah :neo:

This is a very interesting subject to bring to this forum because I’m sure most people have wondered why Jehovah would create such horrible killing beasts. This subject brings back to mind of the time I was in the park with my young family. Is was a very hot day and I had given my son and daughter a lovely cold icelolly. We all sat on a bench enjoying out lollys (as JW we are taught at assemblies to teach our children to bin our rubbish so my daughter was well trained) and I noticed my daughter put her lolly paper in her pocket. It was nearing the end of the summer and the wasps were out. Suddenly I noticed wasps hovering around her and I realised they were not after her but rather the sugger on the lolly paper. Thankfully she was not stung.

My son also attracts wasps and I worked out why, he is diabetic and the smell the sugar attracts them. So yes the balance Jehovah set in motion has been changed.

As regards what Jehovah will do regarding creation killing each other we will have to wait and see. My view is that it all depends on the intelligence of the animal. Obviously the lower intelligence animals such as plankton and insects will always be a food source to others. So we must be balanced in our views.

Well Chuffdaddy ...:hug:

there was darkness before there was light... :shocked:

I wonder were this will lead to but what if Satan did have a hand in creation and what if there were many more angels involved .

Diversity , balance , that's a pretty big job considering the amount of species w have found in these days and are still finding.

Love, Lc :heartbeat:

Hi ChuffDaddy

You raise some interesting questions :thumbsup:

God only gave mankind meat to eat after the Flood. Plus, God changed the nature of the relationship between men and animals after the Flood also:

"The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." (Gen 9:1-3, NIV)

Clearly then, God can change the nature of animals, as in the above case. For this reason, I don't believe animals have always been like they are at present.

Why the "barbaric cruelty"? First, as others have pointed out, the word "cruel" is very subjective. Man also eats animals - does that make us cruel? More often than not, animals kill other animals for food, territory, or a mate - i.e. survival.

Second, the rebellion of Adam had a direct consquence for his children, we know that from scripture. But it also had a direct consequence for the rest of creation. Man was given dominion over earthly creation:

"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Gen 1:26)

Adam and Eve were effectively given rulership of the Earth and its animals. But it wasn't enough for them - they wanted also to be like the gods. Sure enough, they were granted their independence, like the gods they were.

Only problem was - they weren't gods. The human race suffered, along with the animal kingdom. After all, it wasn't just the human realm that became divorced from God, but the whole of creation that had been subjected to Adam and Eve - including the animals.

God ensured the survival of the human race by clothing Adam and Eve, and assuring a "seed" for the woman. He had also given them a brain adaptable enough to design things that would ensure their survival.

The animals were not given brains like Adam, but they had varying skills, traits and weapons given to them at creation that would ensure their survival also.

As an example, lion's jaws - powerful enough to kill other animals, but also good enough to eat straw.

So when Adam and Eve declared their independence, the whole of creation became separated from God, as a necessary requirement of their "godship". Fortunately, God had also given his creation the necessary tools to survive without Him, although it would be a hard lesson.

And thus we see the consequences: man dominating man to his injury, and in the animal kingdom, survival of the fittest.

Do I believe this was the case from the beginning? Not at all. But Adam and Eve just had to be like God, didn't they? God was smart enough to design survival mechanisms into his creation.

Another example is a coma, designed to keep the brain alive. What is the need for a coma in a perfect world? But God had thought in advance and designed his creation with survival capacities, right from the start.