Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello my friends!

Perhaps this is just a small point, but I found it rather interesting. This scripture was used over and over again in such away so as to try and make me think a small group of people leave planet earth.
Well it turns out there is another very reasonable explaination for this vs.
"and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth."
This last statement "who had been redeemed from the earth" can also be explaining how faithful ones have been redeemed from the curse on Adam. They are redeemed from the ground/dust/earth/land. Simply a different way of saying they are resurrected!

Digging

uh huh

Hi digging... I don't think of Rev.14:3 as being in heaven either. But rather being redeemed for the curse of Adam (I like that idea). I do think the K of G is an earthly kingdom.. The 144,000 have managed to conquer in the sense that they are not slaves of sin anymore..

Here's another scripture that I think was pointing to this also.

Deu 12:16 Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.

Jesus life blood was poured out onto dead mankind....whom are sleeping in the graves of the earth.

Digging

:cheekkiss:

Digging, how is your move coming along? Good I hope. Miss your posts.

You said

Quote:

They are redeemed from the ground/dust/earth/land. Simply a different way of saying they are resurrected!

Another idea for you! Remember when in Rev. 12:16? Where it says that the earth comes to the womans rescue? The earth being good people of the woman... but still earthly, rather than spiritual.

Maybe the 144,000 coming from the earth, means, that originally these 144,000 were earthly before they came to mt. Zion with Jesus.

:funnyface:

The Greek word ges, which is usually translated as "earth" in Revelation can also mean "land."

Two of the important points in this scripture, are the fact that only the 144,000 could master the new song. So their experience is different from all others.
They were bought as firstfruits, that means there were other holy ones aswell, as Romans 11:16 shows.
It is true all are purchased by the blood of Christ but it is interesting that during the exodus from Egypt, that the firstborn who were preserved alive at the time of the passover were considered Jehovah's property; he had bought them, even though the whole group made the escape.
Hebrews 12:23 says the congregation of the firstborn has been enrolled in the heavens.

Just some thoughts

vicky

Hello Man hu,

I'm trying to follow you, however I'm not 100% sure as to the exact point you are trying to make? So I'll try and reply as I understand? Notice also in Rev 15:3

"And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and wonderful are thy deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are thy ways, O King of the ages!"

Here two songs are song one of Moses.....what can this tell us?? Well I see it as pointing to one hope...

What does it MEAN it be of the firstfruits..........
Well I believe it is linked with being resurrected. Notice carefully what it says in Rev 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead...."

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Cr 15:21 For since by a man {came} death, by a man also {came} the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

Now you also mentioned the point about the first born saved in Egypt,
Well was this not a symbolic act of the resurrection?? First and for most pointing to Christs resurrection??

So I say it's not that some will receive more than anyone else, it's just that some will receive it sooner than the others, just like Christ he has received his full blessing as the 1st of the firstfruits and we wait for our full redemption, BUT the rest of mankind ALSO will receive their redemption or be 'bought' with Christs blood in the furture during the 1000's years. (rev 22:14)

What am I trying to say?? The '144,000' (firstfruits) is only a part of God's greater plan.

Exd 23:14 “Three times in the year you shall keep a feast to me.

Exd 23:15 “You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed.(JESUS)

Exd 23:16 “You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. (This age )

"You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor."

This last part of the vs is VERY important!! This is YET to happen, this is talking about the 1000's years!! BUT is PART of the three and just as IMPORTANT! This feast of the ingathering, is a symbol for the great body of believers to yet be brought in, a much greater, larger body.

Everyone whom is saved is of the city, ALL must enter the city.

Digging

Hi Digging;
I hope you won't mind if I enter this discussion.

The first time I heard of the concept of there being no heavenly resurrection, was several years ago, from a major Bible scholar and teacher, for whom I have the greatest respect. And I have no one's doctrine to teach on this (as I suspect many do), so I could go either way if there was sufficient proof. However, after the most extensive research I just can't find enough proof for anyone to be dogmatic.

For a fact, there appears to be no evidence of a heavenly hope in the OT, and many of the things Jesus said about entering the Kingdom of Heaven could refer to coming under the rule of a Kingdom rule from the heavens. Yet, Jesus seemed to open the way for some when he made a covenant with his 11 faithful Apostles "for a Kingdom," and he said that they would be where he was, because they were the ones who stuck with him during his trials. This was obviously not the same as the New Covenant that he inaugurated with all baptized followers earlier in his evening meal.

The fact is; even the word that is translated resurrection (anastasia) seems to imply standing upon one's feet again, which implies an earthly resurrection. However, I suspect that the truth (as always) stands between the opposing poles on this subject.

Actually, Jesus stood again on this earth when he was resurrected, and then he was taken to heaven. And it could be true (not being dogmatic) that all are resurrected to this earth, where the marriage of the Lamb and his bride takes place, and which feast is attended by the earthly faithful slaves. Then those who are chosen at that time, because they had suffered and died terribly for their beliefs
(see Revelation 20:4), are taken to heaven to comprise the heavenly portion of Kingdom rulership.

You see, I know that the "faithful and discreet slave" is not the bride. But there is still the matter of there being a bride, and it would seem logical that she (or they) would be in heaven with the groom.

The problem we all have is with the obviously erroneous teaching of the Society that God has gone through mankind and selected just a few who He likes to be with Jesus in heaven, and that they magically know that they've been selected. I find that funny, because at the great convention in 1935 when the "great crowd" was identified and asked to stand up, hundreds did. So, who really had enough of Jehovah's Spirit to identify themselves, according to the Society?

But, doesn't it just make good sense that those "who stuck with Jesus during his trials," and were willing to be beheaded, torn by wild animals, and serve as torches in the Roman arenas would receive some special reward?

Dear JW,

I am not sure if you are asking me or just sharing where you sit right now with all of this?

I hope I can help, first of all this use of the scripture of Jesus and his 11 and some trying to make the one 'covenant' into two one for the Kingdom and the other for forgiveness and everlasting life.That is so much of the foundation the witnesses have used from the beginning to try and divide the sheep away from the Christ and thier hope.

You had said they were included because they suffered for the Christ.
Well then how can we explain Hebrews speaking of Moses

11:26 "considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward."

Now as for a comment you made,

But, doesn't it just make good sense that those "who stuck with Jesus during his trials," and were willing to be beheaded, torn by wild animals, and serve as torches in the Roman arenas would receive some special reward?

If you carefully study the reward for Christians you will find it IMPOSSIBLE to separate it from the hope and promise given to Abraham.

Also notice Ephe 4:4

"There is one body and one spirit, just as also you were called in ONE HOPE of your calling."

Yes the reward IS special, but God's love is great and for all lovers of righteousness!

Remeber there was only ONE tree of life in the  Garden.

I believe one's concept of the Kingdom also greatly affects thier understanding of this matter.

Digging

This subject of some going to heaven was touched on under the 'anointed' topic. Just to make it clear to everyone, as perhaps you all can tell I'm firmly convinced no one is going to heaven the way so many have been taught to think.

Thus JW I wish to reply to a few thoughts mentioned. You had said the bride would need to be in heaven with Jesus, however if you recall the bible says he is coming back here to the earth.

Sometimes to see things in new ways we need to read different scriptures, because so often a few pet vs's are used to 'prove' a doctrine.

So in that light please read John

Jhn 17:20   “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

Jhn 17:21   that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Jhn 17:22   I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

Jhn 17:23   I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved

Notice how he prayed for ALL whom would ever believe the message?
What does it mean to be brought to COMPLETE UNITY??

How can such a spilt teaching of hope, destiny, postion, function be considered 'complete unity??

Digging

Greeting friends,

I just am wondering if anyone has a reply for this last point I have made. You see of all the teaching that we have as Christians I find this one is like a brick wall set up between real life and TV.

Digging

Dear Digging,

I agree with you that there is only one hope after death. But I think it's the opposite hope. The Bible talks about a heavenly resurrection explicitly (1 Cor. 15:35,44; Rev. 14:1; 21:2), but never an earthly one. So that is why I think we're all going to heaven.

Dear Don,

Before I begin I wish to FULLY understand your view? There can sometimes be different shades to each thought on such matters. ;)

The scriptures you pointed to, I wish to ask what is your understanding of the term "New Jersalem, coming down out of heaven from God."?
As for vs 1 cor 44 if we read this including down to vs 48 and think about how the vs's are used discribing Jesus being from heaven...how was he from heaven?

I agree with what the bible says I just understand it to be describing the way the body will be imperishable, we will be spiritual, but not a spirit.

Digging

Such are the limitations of language. Where is heaven? I have come to the conclusion that heaven is a spiritual "condition" and not a location, per se. As north is described as "up" - universally speaking, that makes no sense whatsoever - we understand it as such because it has always been so described as a reference point commonly accepted.

When Jesus was resurrected, he rose. When he "went" to heaven, he went "up." The immediate thought that came to my mind was: how far? As always, humans think from reference points commonly accepted, but not necessarily the case. There are countless scriptures that indicate that God is in heaven and with us. When there are two or three of us gathered together in his name, Jesus is with us.

Could it be that heavenly bodies are all around us and we just haven't the ability to "see" them of our own initiative? My conclusion is that we are separated from Jehovah by something other than geographic distance. The "gulf" that must eventually be traversed is a spiritual one. There aren't any reference points commonly accepted when it comes to heaven, so we are trapped by our ideas of what and where heaven is. Our reality (described by reference points commonly accepted) is a very limited reality. I believe that unity with YHWH describes heaven. The question is, can there be unity with a God who is spirit whilst we reside in material form. Jesus claimed that he was unified with his Father while he walked the earth. I have every reason to believe that is a very real possibility for us.

gus