Hello everyone! I wanted to start off my first discussion on Romans 4:15. Quoted from the NASB:
"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation."
My question is this, is this scripture saying that in cases where there is no stated law in the scriptures, if your conscience allows it and you dont stumble anyone that it is ok to pursue it?
My fear was always that if i practiced something that i didnt know was wrong in God's eyes, come Judgment day i would still be held liable. But would i be if a law is not specifically stated in the Bible?
What are your thoughts?
Greetings Yannis
Romans 2:12....is helpful as well,imo.
"For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare."
This one explains much, as well, imo...
Luke 12:47...
"Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him."
Christian love and greetings,
gogh
:clap: Greetings Yannis!! :clap:
Welcome to the forum!! My thoughts on this, are that wherever there is Law, you have the potential for transgression -- being that the Law is a Righteous parameter for the flow of Life Force Energy! When Romans 4:13 speaks "where there is no law, there also is no violation." (NASB), to me it is speaking about this principle!
"On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law" -- Galatians 5:22-23
Yes, the Law produces wrath when there is transgression, however with Love, there is no Law against it -- why?
"10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment." -- Romans 13:10
Love fulfills the Law!! It is the very fabric of existence!! Romans 4:13 could be said, another way (paraphrase!) -->
"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is Love, there also is no violation." -- Romans 4:13 (NASB - d_punk edition)
May LOVE be with you!
your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:
Hello everyone! I wanted to start off my first discussion on Romans 4:15. Quoted from the NASB:
"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation."
My question is this, is this scripture saying that in cases where there is no stated law in the scriptures, if your conscience allows it and you dont stumble anyone that it is ok to pursue it?
My fear was always that if i practiced something that i didnt know was wrong in God's eyes, come Judgment day i would still be held liable. But would i be if a law is not specifically stated in the Bible?
What are your thoughts?
That's not what the Scripture is saying.
Chapter 3 is saying that EVERYONE both Jew and Greek are sinners. The Jews sinned with the law, the Greek without it. Paul makes the point that if God never gave a law, that people could not be charged with breaking the law. He did give the law and it showed how sinful both Jews and Greeks were.
Because no one could preform the law, the law kills everyone that tries to please God by following it, because,:
Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sin.
(NAU)
But Paul, then says that there is a new way to please God,:
Rom 3:21-23
21 But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
(NAU)
Christ did away with the commandments that were AGAINST us by nailing them to the tree.
Col 2:14
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
(NAU)
Christians are no longer under any law.
Rom 6:14
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
(NAU)
Rom 7:6
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
(NAU)
Rom 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
(NAU)
Gal 5:18
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
(NAU)
1 Cor 10:23
23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.
(NAU)
You know when your children are little, how they need rules. "Don't run across the road" "don't eat that" "Don't touch hot things" - you teach your children (or try to) to be obedient for their own sakes, until such time as they are old enough to understand why rules are necessary.
Later, when they are adults, we hope we have imputted and taught them all they need to live safe, healthy lives, to no longer need childhood rules because they are mature adults, able to make decisions without rules.
When God gets a hold of us, if we let him, he begins changing us, shaping us, molding us, teaching us, as our father, until we understand that we have the freedom to do anything we want at all, yet, hopefully, we are responsible and mature enough not to do things contrary to the Spirit of God. Freedom and responsibility.
God is in the process of raising up strong, mature people of God who can make decisions in the Spirit. You don't need a law to tell you right and wrong if you're indwelt by the Spirit of God. You're free from the law.
Shalom folks. Hope the old computer holds this time.:dontknow:
You know when your children are little, how they need rules. "Don't run across the road" "don't eat that" "Don't touch hot things" - you teach your children (or try to) to be obedient for their own sakes, until such time as they are old enough to understand why rules are necessary.
Later, when they are adults, we hope we have imputted and taught them all they need to live safe, healthy lives, to no longer need childhood rules because they are mature adults, able to make decisions without rules.
When God gets a hold of us, if we let him, he begins changing us, shaping us, molding us, teaching us, as our father, until we understand that we have the freedom to do anything we want at all, yet, hopefully, we are responsible and mature enough not to do things contrary to the Spirit of God. Freedom and responsibility.
God is in the process of raising up strong, mature people of God who can make decisions in the Spirit. You don't need a law to tell you right and wrong if you're indwelt by the Spirit of God. You're free from the law.
Shalom folks. Hope the old computer holds this time.:dontknow:
Thank you all for your fine scriptural reasoning. You all gave me good things to meditate on. I guess based on this verse too that no one has the right to tell someone else what is wrong or what isnt if it is not specifically mentioned in the scriptures. A person would have to develop the mind of Christ in order to discern God's Will on a particular matter.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you all.
Hello and a warm welcome to you Yannis!:hibye::D:cheer:
When I read your question I couldn't help but think that your heart is obviously wanting to do what is right in the eyes of our God and his Son!:heartbeat:
When it comes to 'judging' sinful mankind perhaps reflecting on HOW this judgment will be done may be good and ease your mind somewhat ... :giverose:
1Pet. 2:23 ...
23 When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.
WHO JUDGES RIGHTEOUSLY ...
Just to refresh our memories ... ;) what does 'righteous (ly, ness) mean ...:confused:
1. Conforming in disposition and conduct to standard of right and justice; upright; virtuous. 2. Morally right; equitable
righteousness
1. The quality or character of being righteous; uprightness; recititude. 2. A righteous act or quality. 3. Rightfulness; justice
So, when it comes time to stand before Christ Jesus for the acts we have done or done ... it would be well for us to remember that our Lord and Savior is not seeking to CONDEMN us ... but rather to look for the GOOD in us to SAVE us ...
For like his heavenly Father he too does 'not desire ANY to be destroyed but to attain to REPENTANCE' ...
Of course this 'righteousness' on the part of our Lord would not entail us to 'take advantage' of the 'goodness of our God' ... nor the 'kindness of our Lord and the saving aspect of his ransom' ...
IMHO, since we are made in the 'image' of our God and his Son ... we can basically know what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' in most instances if our consciences are being trained by the righteous principles found in God's Word ... when we are 'not sure' ... dig around first and see what PRINCIPLES may be involved in what we are wanting to do ... and if they don't go against what we know Jehovah and his Son would hate ... and if our consciences are not 'bothered' ... then it very well may be that that course of conduct or thinking may not be wrong ...
And if it IS wrong we come to find out in the future ... then if we are truly doing it out of ignorance ... IMHO I think that is where Jesus' righteousness comes into play in regard to the judging that he will do ... for he looks at our HEART'S MOTIVATIONS ... and if our hearts are 'soft' towards him ... and we truly seek to follow in his footsteps ... that his judgment can only be in the merciful way that he showed when he walked upon our earth ...
Not sure if this is of any help ... just some thoughts off the top of my head ...:giverose:
May Jehovah and Christ continue to guide you in all you do ...
Warm Christian love ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:
Hello and a warm welcome to you Yannis!:hibye::D:cheer:
When I read your question I couldn't help but think that your heart is obviously wanting to do what is right in the eyes of our God and his Son!:heartbeat:
When it comes to 'judging' sinful mankind perhaps reflecting on HOW this judgment will be done may be good and ease your mind somewhat ... :giverose:
1Pet. 2:23 ...
23 When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously. Â
WHO JUDGES RIGHTEOUSLY ...
Just to refresh our memories ... ;) what does 'righteous (ly, ness) mean ...:confused:
1. Conforming in disposition and conduct to standard of right and justice; upright; virtuous. 2. Morally right; equitable
righteousness
1. The quality or character of being righteous; uprightness; recititude. 2. A righteous act or quality. 3. Rightfulness; justice
So, when it comes time to stand before Christ Jesus for the acts we have done or done ... it would be well for us to remember that our Lord and Savior is not seeking to CONDEMN us ... but rather to look for the GOOD in us to SAVE us ...
For like his heavenly Father he too does 'not desire ANY to be destroyed but to attain to REPENTANCE' ...
Of course this 'righteousness' on the part of our Lord would not entail us to 'take advantage' of the 'goodness of our God' ... nor the 'kindness of our Lord and the saving aspect of his ransom' ...
IMHO, since we are made in the 'image' of our God and his Son ... we can basically know what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' in most instances if our consciences are being trained by the righteous principles found in God's Word ... when we are 'not sure' ... dig around first and see what PRINCIPLES may be involved in what we are wanting to do ... and if they don't go against what we know Jehovah and his Son would hate ... and if our consciences are not 'bothered' ... then it very well may be that that course of conduct or thinking may not be wrong ...
And if it IS wrong we come to find out in the future ... then if we are truly doing it out of ignorance ... IMHO I think that is where Jesus' righteousness comes into play in regard to the judging that he will do ... for he looks at our HEART'S MOTIVATIONS ... and if our hearts are 'soft' towards him ... and we truly seek to follow in his footsteps ... that his judgment can only be in the merciful way that he showed when he walked upon our earth ...
Not sure if this is of any help ... just some thoughts off the top of my head ...:giverose:
May Jehovah and Christ continue to guide you in all you do ...
Warm Christian love ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:
Thanks BR for your encouraging words. Yes i am concerned on doing what is right. I have always been a black and white kind of guy and in the past would ask others concerning what i should do. But as i study the bible more and dwell upon the freedom that comes from following Christ i realize said freedom comes with great responsibility.
May the Grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.