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Thought I would repost this article I wrote since it has been deleted from the old Watchman cafe .

The identity of the rider on the white horse.

I have been thinking about the rider on the white horse of late. This being the first horseman of the apocalypse. Who is he?

In the book of revelation there are two instances of a rider on a white horse . Are they the same rider or two separate riders?

The following scripture mentions the first rider on a white horse and this rider is the one I think is not Jesus Christ but probably the antichrist . The second mention of a rider on a white horse I shall deal with later .

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.


The watchtower teaches us that this rider is Jesus Christ . There are a number of problems with this view as I shall explain .

I shall put forward each logical argument in turn so you can all consider them one by one .

The first argument is to do with the problem of Jesus being one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse .

The four horsemen are associated with the signs leading up to Christ’s second coming . Considering that the parallel account of these signs in the book of Matthew chapter 24 and Mark chapter 13 are said to be the `beginnings of pangs of distress` namely this mysterious rider on a white horse who is conquering then warfare ,famine ,pestilence and death . It is not logical to think that Jesus is the first rider of these horsemen . Jesus is not seen until later after the tribulation when he is seen coming in the clouds of heaven . This is argument number one .

The second argument involves what the first horse man of the apocalypse is carrying .

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

This rider has a bow and a single crown .

This is interesting because later on in Revelation a rider on a white horse which is clearly Jesus Christ does not have a bow but a long sword coming out of his mouth . Ok some will argue that to begin with ,assuming that the first white horseman is Jesus Christ , that the reason he has a bow instead of a sword is because Christ at this stage is at a distance so a sword would not be any good . This of course is tied up with the 1914 idea of several comings or slow coming over 100 years or more . Of course this is rubbish as the bible only supports Christ’s coming at a single point in time or advent . Well of course this argument is not conclusive on its own as to proving that this rider is not Jesus Christ and it is possible that he starts of with a bow for some reason we don’t understand . However there is another scripture in Revelation that shows that Jesus in fact does start off with a sword and not a bow .

Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes as a fiery flame;
Rev 1:15 and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace; and his voice was as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was as the sun when it shines in its power.


Rev 2:16 Therefore repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war with them with the long sword of my mouth.

So assuming that Revelation is somewhat chronological we see that Jesus starts off with a sword from his mouth but then strangely swaps it for a bow then changes it back again for a sword . This makes no sense if this first rider on a white horse is Jesus Christ .

Also the matter of the crown that is being worn .
This first white horseman is given a crown and also this crown in Greek is a stephanos . This type of crown is a wreath or a twine and is placed upon the head as a badge of royalty and is associated with conquering and was also given to sports champions as with the Olympics . However the rider on the second white horse who is Jesus Christ for sure is not said to be given a crown but has many crowns . The Greek for these crowns mentioned in Revelation 19:12 is Diadema . This type of Crown or crowns are not placed upon the head as with stephanos but are wrapped round the head like a turban . This would seem to be more appropriate for Jesus as its more permanent . Along with the fact that he has more than one of these wraparound crowns that are not given to him would seem to indicate that he already had the crowns and the authority that the crowns conferred . It doesn’t make sense that Christ would have both types of crowns on at the same time and more than one . As a point of practicality bearing in mind that this is symbolic of course it would be easier to wear many stephanos at the same time as it would diadema . This is the second argument .

The third argument involves what the first rider on the white horse does . The way the new world translation puts it is this :

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

This translation implies that this rider is going to complete his conquest . However in the kingdom interlinear translation the idea conveyed is not to complete his conquest but `that he might conquer` . Also in all the other translations I can find this thought of completion does not exist . Here are some examples :

ALT) And look! A white horse, and the one sitting on it having a bow, and a victor's wreath was given to him, and he went out conquering, and so that he should conquer.

(ASV) And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.

(BBE) And I saw a white horse, and he who was seated on it had a bow; and there was given to him a crown: and he went out with power to overcome.

(CEV) Then I saw a white horse. Its rider carried a bow and was given a crown. He had already won some victories, and he went out to win more.

This mistranslation is undoubtedly due to the Watchtowers 1914 dogma again . Its is in keeping with the erroneous idea that Christ came in 1914 and is conquering since 1914 until he completes his conquest . However that thought is not contained in this scripture . Transversely when Christ is on his white horse he wars with the nations very quickly as they are still alive when pitched into the fiery lake that burns with fire and sulphur . So for this reason the first horseman of the apocalypse is likely not Jesus Christ . So in no way would Christ be conquering in order to conquer which is the correct meaning of this verse. This is the third argument .

The forth argument involves a scripture in Daniel.

Dan 9:26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si'ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. "And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

This is the new world translation but I prefer these translations instead :


(CEV) At the end of the sixty-two weeks, the Chosen Leader will be killed and left with nothing. A foreign ruler and his army will sweep down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins, and war and destruction will continue until the end, just as God has decided.

(Darby) And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with an overflow, and unto the end, war, --the desolations determined.

This scripture is of course talking about the time of Christ but also the time of the end . It talks about a prince or leader who will come and then bring war and desolations . The first rider on the white horse because he had a stephanos on which denotes a conqueror or royalty (like an antichrist pretending to be a prince like Christ ) fits well with this scripture in Daniel . Also after this prince has appeared there is war and then desolations . Sounds very similar to the four horsemen of the apocalypse of which the rider on the white horse is the first . So this suggests again that the first rider on the white horse is not only not Jesus but is the antichrist . This is the fourth argument .

The final argument involves a scripture in Hebrews :

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.
Heb 4:13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.
Heb 4:14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him].

Most people would think that this scripture is talking about the bible . However it is in fact talking about Jesus Christ who was and is called `the word`
For instance the bible is not alive and being a book and an inanimate object it does not discern thoughts or intentions of the heart .Also in verse 13 we notice that in the same context a personal pronoun is used . “And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight”

What then does this scripture in Hebrews tell us about the second rider on the white horse which is Jesus Christ ?

First of all Hebrews defines the meaning of the two edged sword . This sword divides the thoughts and intentions of peoples hearts in a scalpel like way enabling one to accurately judge . This confirms that my point about the first riders bow indicates that he could not be Jesus Christ . Christ would never use such a clumsy weapon as such would be random and unable to accurately discern peoples hearts .

Hebrews 4:13 goes on to describe Christ’s sight as being so keen that there `is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight` .
Compare this idea with Revelation 19:12 :

Rev 19:12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself,
Hebrews 4:14 then tells us that he is a high priest and Revelation then tells us he has many crowns .
The name of this second rider is called in Revelation `the word of God the linking this with the Hebrews scripture .

Rev 19:13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart.

This all provides good evidence that the rider on the first white horse is not Jesus but is probably the antichrist due to his appearance being so similar to the real Jesus Christ / Word of God who rides his white horse towards the end of the book of Revelation . So there are two riders of white horses in Revelation not including Christ’s angels who ride with Jesus on his white horse unlike the first white horse .

What do YOU think ?



Another argument that I forgot to mention on my first post that the first rider on the white horse is the antichrist and not Jesus Christ is to do with the parallel accounts of the four horsemen of the apocalypse and the parallel accounts in Matthew and Mark .

The second horse rider is that of War but when Christ was asked by the apostles what the sign of his coming was he also mentioned war as a second sign . So what Christ said was the first sign before war should give us a clue as to the identity of the first rider on the white horse as these prophecies parallel those of the four horsemen . What did he say ?

Mat 24:3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"
Mat 24:4 And in answer Jesus said to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU;
Mat 24:5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

Mar 13:5 So Jesus started to say to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU.
Mar 13:6 Many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and will mislead many.

1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son.

So the antichrist is here mentioned by Christ so it’s a good bet that the rider on the first horse of the of the apocalypse is the antichrist .

Hi Seraphim

Thanks for the article :yahoo:

I agree with much of your reasoning. I must admit, I held out to the belief that the first horseman was Jesus Christ for a long time, but the parallel between Mathew 24 (false Christs, wars, famines, and tribulations) and the first six seals of Revelation is irrestistible.

We have to remember that Jesus Christ gave both prophecies, so the similarity is unlikely to be a coincidence.

I'm not sure if the 70 weeks prophecy can be applied here. I appreciate that many believe the last "week" was broken off and is future, but I'm not entirely convinced that's true. The "foreign army" here was the Romans, who destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70AD.

Given that there are many false Christs and antichrists, could the white horseman be a symbol representing false Christs?

Incidentally, another question we could ask, is:

How do we know when the first four seals are opened?

At least JWs have a date for it - 1914. And that date was followed by massive war, food shortage and death.

Personally, I don't know when or if the first five seals will be/have been opened, but I don't believe the sixth seal has been opened yet.

I suspect there is a reason why the first five seals are intentionally vague - war, food shortage, death, dead martyrs asking "How long"? It ain't nothin' new!

And maybe that's Jesus' point. "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows." (Mathew 24:36)

Re: "...white horse stands for purity..."

Sheep are often white...

“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves."

:hyper:

Hello luvin' Christ .

My reasoning is not of course water tight but it does present some interesting reasoning .

One point I would take issue with you on is the point where you say :

"To complete his conquest or that he might conquer means the same thing to me. "

I can see why you might think these mean the same thing but the NWT version limits the interpretation . The NWT implies that the rider actually will complete his conquest . Because Revelation as we all know is a prophetic book one would naturally reason when they read "and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest." that he really does complete his conquest . However this thought of completion is not contained in the original Greek .

The most one can really say is that the rider goes forth conquering and does in fact conquer to a degree but one cant say that he completes the conquest as that meaning is not contained in the Greek .

This is a very subtle difference but it is a difference .

Hello all,

I appreciate the logic explanation in this link:

http://www.thirdmill.org/answers/answer..../site/iiim

The White Horseman

Question

Who is the white horseman in Revelation chapter 6?  Some people say it is the Anti-Christ and then there are some that say it is Jesus Christ. Which is it?

Answer

The context of Revelation does not seem to suggest that the white horseman is either antichrist or Jesus. Rather, the context of the horsemen seems to indicate that each one represents a typical form of covenant judgment.

In the Old Testament, one of prophecy's major functions was to express the terms of God's covenants by threatening judgment against covenant disobedience, and offering blessings for covenant obedience. The other three horsemen represent curses in the typical forums of nature and war. The white horseman explicitly represents conquest. Probably, he is to be understood as taking away the political autonomy of those he conquers. He represents conquest by a foreign nation, such as that suffered by Israel during their captivity in Assyria following the fall of Samaria in 722 B.C., and that suffered by Israel and Judah in Babylon following the fall of Jerusalem in 586 B.C.

Thus, the riders as a whole would represent loss of self-rule, loss of military peace, loss of sufficient means of survival (food, etc.), loss of health, and loss of harmony with nature -- all typical Old Testament covenant judgments.

Answer by Ra McLaughlin

Philia, LT

Well its an interesting view point loving_truth but I'm not sure it would stand up to scrutiny. The article appears to be from some form of Anglicanism. They believe in immortality of the soul and the trinity and the observance of the Sabbath. However I would prefer to here your thoughts in your own words of how this view works before I can really make any comment because the article is not very detailed.

Hi Seraphim,

I find your post very well thought through. I also came to the conclusion that the first horseman is not Jesus, but via a different train of thought. Maybe you're interested to read what I wrote a while ago on my website. Click here: The First Horseman of Revelation — What Does He Represent?

I came to the conclusion that the first horseman is part of a series of four judgments mentioned in the OT and that it represents the wild beast. Let me know what you think...

:headbang:

Oh, my God, nobody even thinks the same at all.. wow.

I guess accurate knowledge is not going to be that important in the end or we would at least be gravitating to some similarities.

Hi Seraphim (and other readers),

My own thoughts about Revelation and the White Horseman? ......

What where the thoughts of the Christians about Revelation in the first century? They had no thoughts about Revelation, because of its non-existence (Revelation is written on the end of the first century).  They were good Christians without the book Revelation.

If Jesus wants me to understand the Revelation, then Jesus had to be more clear about the interpretation of this book. He is until now not so clear, thus I wait on him. When he makes it clear, then all honour for the interpretation goes to him, and not to us.

One thing is clear to me: All wise men battle about the explanation, but there is no consensus. Why? The explanation of Christ himself is not paramount.

Philia, Loving Truth

Dear Family

Yes, everything in regard to interpreting the book of Revelation can be reduced to the words, "Well I think ...", and it will remain no more than that, at least at this stage, until our Creator or Redeemer deems otherwise.
It may be fun to speculate but ultimately it solves nothing.
As was mentioned by Loving Truth and Lovin' Christ, it begs the question 'just how important is our understanding of its contents when so many goodhearted, sincere individuals disagree on so much'!!
There's less hassle in studying the 4 gospels; it's a little more straight forward. :D

Regards to everyone,
Nick xxxx

Here are some thoughts re the First horseman.

In 1914 The crown that Jehovah removed from Zedekiah was restored after 2,520 years.
Jesus was not sittting on Jehovahs throne at this time , Zedekiah had sat on Nebuchadnezzar`s Throne, He ruled the nation of Israel on behalf of Nebuchadnezzar.
This is the crown the first horseman is wearing, he is ruling over Gods people amidst his enemies in Satans world just as Zedekiah did under Nebuchadnezzar.Since 1914 Jesus has laid foundations for a government and is selecting those to rule with him before he receives the Throne Jehovah had given to David, (Jehovahs Throne) which will be at the end of the Gentile Times or appointed times of the nations. No one knows the day or hour Jehovah will give him that authority.

Psalms 45 speaks of the traits of the anointed King

4 And in your splendor go on to success;
Ride in the cause of truth and humility [and] righteousness,
And your right hand will instruct you in fear-inspiring things.
5 Your arrows are sharp—under you peoples keep falling—
In the heart of the enemies of the king.
6 God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever;
The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness.
7 You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness.
That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.

26 this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’

mark

Howdy Mark,

Re: "In 1914 The crown that Jehovah removed from Zedekiah was restored after 2,520 years."

I really couldn't get past a statement like that without first wanting to see some scriptural reasoning to clarify such a statement. Is there something you could help me understand this statement please,... from scripture?

Thanks,

Christian love,

gogh

Hiya gogh
Well you are not going to find a scripture thats says that but I`m sure you are familiar with the seven times prophecy of Daniel.
I know many here are no longer accepting the 1914 teaching and I can understand why when the WT apply it to Revelation 11: 15 when Christ becomes King of the World.( Rev 19 : 6 ) it confuses everything else the they try to interpret.
The Watchtower have said the Gentile Times ended in 1914 thats one of many reasons I am here but I see no problem whatsoever with accepting 607 as the starting date of the seven times prophecy and Jesus receiving Zedekiahs Crown at the end in 1914. Everything else seems to fall into place viewing it this way.
I dont know how else I can help other than asking you to think it through yourself and praying on it.
Christian love to you too gogh

Howdy Mark..

Re: "...but I see no problem whatsoever with accepting 607 as the starting date of the seven times prophecy and Jesus receiving Zedekiahs Crown at the end in 1914."

I have decided to try and not teach anything I cannot give scriptural backing to.

Jesus said ..."Keep on the watch."

Reference to the Gentile Times or Times of the Nations is found in Revelation ch. 11:2...". But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months." (This statement does not require a calculator to understand.)

It seems dynamic/awesome/profound fulfillment of prophecy of Daniel and Revelation would have fulfillment upon a world of over six billion people as opposed to a fulfillment (Christ beginning an invisible presence before he arrives) upon a population that existed back in early 1900's. Also I reflect on the scripture that describes bringing to ruin those ruining the earth. To what extent was the earth being ruined one hundred years ago compared with the ruining that is taking place today? (ruining in many, many ways).

I'm not currently concerning myself with fulfillment of prophesy...(always a bit though...grin)..(I figure I'll clue in as need....grin) Encouraging others to put complete faith in our Lord Jesus Christ is most pleasing to YHWH. This ,imo, is main focus.

Take care Mark.

.o2,

Christian love,

gogh