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HELLO FRIENDS...I FOUND THIS ARTICLE WRITTEN BY i_witness....I HOPE HE DOESN'T MIND ME POSTING IT HERE AT THIS DB FOR ONES HERE TO READ...IT REALLY MAKES IT SO CLEAR JESUS HAS NOT COME YET EVEN IN THE SENSE OF HIS PRESENCE OR PAROUSIA THAT THE WTS HAS BEEN TEACHING THEIR FOLLOWERS THAT JESUS HAS BEEN PRESENT SCINCE 1914.....

YES....WE ARE TOLD TO LOOK FOR SIGNS OF HIS COMING....AND NOT FOR SIGNS OF HIS PAROUSIA...OR HIS INVISIBLE PAROUSIA....

COME LORD JESUS!!!!!!!!

Christ's "Presence" or "Coming"
— In the light of the Ancient Eastern text

We briefly looked at a few examples that provided evidence for Aramaic Primacy1 in the recent article "Was the “New Testament” originally written in Jesus’ language?" If, like me, you have come to the conclusion that the words of Jesus and his disciple were indeed originally recorded in Aramaic, you probably will be aware that teachings that relied on them speaking Greek will now need to be re-examined in the light of the Aramaic Peshitta.

One such teaching that relies on Greek Primacy is the Watchtower Society's claim that Jesus gave his disciples signs that would prove to them that he is invisibly "present". This teaching is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses; all other Christians believe that Jesus gave the disciples signs for his "coming". In this article we will look at how the use of the term "parousia" in the Greek texts compares with what the Peshitta says in the same scriptures.

In the scriptures that we're going to examine below I first present the reading according to the "New World Translation" (NWT)2 then the interlinear English as found under the Greek words in the "Kingdom Interlinear" (K. Int.)2 and lastly the rendering according to the "Lamsa Translation" of the Peshitta. For the "Kingdom Interlinear" the words in brackets represent a transliteration of the Greek words. The brackets within the Lamsa quotes contain the original Aramaic words in Hebrew script, and a transliteration of the consonants. [The lowercase letters do not represent separate Aramaic letters but are added because some characters in Aramaic can not be transliterated with one single English character.]

Hebrew and Aramaic words often have attachments in the form of prefixes and suffixes that express the tense of a verb or refer to the persons involved in the action. I have rendered the equivalent translations of the complete Aramaic words in italics but the basic roots of the words in bold type. To make root letters that recur throughout the examples stand out, I have rendered them in maroon. The first text we will look at is 1 Timothy 3:14.



1 Timothy 3:14

NWT: I am writing you these things, though I am hoping to come to you shortly.

K. Int: These (things) to you I am writing, hoping to come [elthein] toward you in quickness.

Lamsa: These things I write to you, although hoping to come [אתא / AThA]3 to you shortly.

This verse is very straightforward and introduces us to the Aramaic word "AThA" which is the verb "to come". The Greek uses "elthein" but other renderings are equally possible as the following scripture shows:


Matthew 11:3

NWT: Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?

K. Int: You are the (one) coming [erkhomenos] or different (one) are we expecting?

Lamsa: Are you the one who is to come [דאתא / DAThA]3, or are we to expect another?

This text presents no problems. The Peshitta uses a form of the verb "to come" here and the Greek text conveys the same idea as the Aramaic. Note the two root lettersאת that occur in all Aramaic words that are based on the verb "to come". Now let us look at the wording of Matthew 24:46.


Matthew 24:46

NWT: Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so.

K. Int: Happy the slave that whom having come [elthon] the lord of him will find thus doing.

Lamsa: Blessed is that servant, when his Lord comes [דנאתא / DNAThA] and finds him so doing.

Here the Greek again reflects the fact that the original text used a form of the Aramaic verb "ATA", "to come". Notice what verse 47 says about the further appointment of the "faithful and discreet slave": "Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings". When Jesus comes in Kingdom power, "all his belongings" will include "the kingdom of the world" (Revelation 11:15). Obviously the slave has not yet been appointed over "the kingdom of the world" indicating that the further appointment has not yet taken place and that Jesus' coming is still future. In the next scripture we will look at the Aramaic word for "coming":


Acts 7:52

NWT: ... who made announcement in advance concerning the coming of the righteous One

K. Int: ... having announced beforehand about the coming [eleuseos] of the righteous (one)

Lamsa: ... who foretold the coming [מאתיתה / MAThYThH] of the Righteous One

In this scripture the translator seems to have understood the proper meaning of "MAThYThA"4 as "coming" and has translated it as such. Having acquainted ourselves with the Greek and Aramaic words for "to come" and "coming" we will now compare these with "parousia":


Matthew 24:3

NWT: ... what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?

K. Int: ... what the sign of the your presence [parousias] and of conclusion of the age?

Lamsa: ... what is the sign of your coming [דמאתיתך / DMAThYThKh], and of the end of the world?

Please note that the Greek word for presence, "parousia" is very different from the other Greek words that indicate coming [erkhomenos, elthon, eleuseos, elthein]. In the hypothetical case that the Peshitta were a translation from the Greek, it would be very unlikely that "parousia" would be confused with words for "coming". The reverse however is not true. The Peshitta here uses a form of the word for coming, "MAThYThA", but there exists one other word, "MAThYA", that resembles it a lot and can mean presence. It is easy to see how the Greek translators could confuse the two terms, causing mistranslations.

Also note that the reading in the Peshitta is very straightforward. The disciples were asking Jesus for a sign that would indicate both "his coming" and "the end of the world". In answer Jesus provided them with the signs that would lead up to his "coming" and the subsequent "end of the world". We will now look at an example of the use of "MAThYA":



2 Corinthians 10:10

NWT: For, say they: [His] letters are weighty and forceful, but [his] presence in person is weak

K. Int: because The letters indeed, say they, weighty and strong, the but presence [parousia] of the body weak

Lamsa: For there are men who say that his epistles are weighty and powerful; but his bodily appearance [מאתיה / MAThYH]5 is weak...

According to Lamsa this text is referring to Paul's "bodily appearance". The Greek translation "parousia" or "presence" for the Aramaic term "MAThYH" is possible but probably not what the apostle had in mind, because in the very next verse he uses the proper Aramaic word taken from the root for "being present / near":



2 Corinthians 10:11

NWT: that what we are in our word by letters when absent, such we shall also be in action when present.

K. Int: that of what sort we are to the word through letters being absent, such (ones) also being alongside [parontes] to the work.

Lamsa: that just as we express ourselves in our epistles when we are away, so are we also in deed when we are present [דקריבינן / DQRYBYNN].

From the contrast with "absent" it is fairly obvious here that "DQRYBYNN" is a term that refers to being "present" and is related to "presence". In Greek the term "parontes" is used which is related to the Greek term for "presence", "parousia". The next scripture is even clearer:



Philippians 2:12

NWT: ... not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence ...

K. Int: ... not as in the presence [parousia] of me only but now to much rather in the absence [apousia] of me...

Lamsa: ... not only in my presence [קריב / QRYB], but much more in my absence [רחיק / RChYQ] ...

Both the Greek and the Aramaic convey the idea of "being present". It is clear that when the Aramaic writer wanted to express "nearness" or "presence" he used the word "QRYB". It is telling that in connection with Jesus' coming this word is never used but always a form of the word "MAThYThA" as is again demonstrated by the next scripture:



1 Thessalonians 3:13

NWT: ... unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

K. Int: ... unblamable in holiness in front of the God and Father of us in the presence [en tei parousia] of the Lord of us Jesus with all the holy (ones) of him.

Lamsa: ... without blemish in holiness before God our Father at the coming [במאתיתה / BMAThYThH]of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

There are a few things to be noticed in this scripture. Firstly in the Kingdom Interlinear it contains both the expressions "in front of" and "in the presence of". Since these are equivalent expressions this at first gives the impression of being in the presence of both God and Jesus and all the holy ones. This does not necessary imply a time period, but the NWT renders it to fit the time period of Jesus "presence". This however causes a bit of a problem because the second thing to notice in this scripture is the expression "with all his holy ones". This expression implies the moment when Jehovah and Jesus are coming to execute judgement at Armageddon. This is seen from such texts as Zechariah 14:5, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 25:31-32 and Jude 1:14-15. Again we see that the Peshitta is consistent in its use of "MAThYThA" when speaking of the "coming" of Jesus "with all his saints".

But some may say "Doesn't 2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9 speak of Jesus' presence being manifested?" Let us then examine whether this text has been understood correctly:



2 Thessalonians 2:8-9

NWT: Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents.

K. Int: And then will be revealed the lawless (one), whom the Lord Jesus will take up to the spirit of the mouth of him and will make ineffective to the manifestation of the presence [parousias] of him, 9 of whom is the presence [parousia] according to working within of the Satan in all power and to signs and to portents of lie.

Lamsa: Then shall the Wicked One be exposed, that one whom our Lord Jesus shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and shall destroy with the revelation of his coming [דמאתיתה / DMAThYThH], 9 Even he whose coming [מאתיתה / MAThYThH] is due to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders.

The NWT presents these texts as referring to two different "presences", implying that Jesus' presence is 'invisible' and needs to be 'manifested.' However the use of the word 'but' as if there is a contrast with the foregoing is not justified. The Peshitta says literally:

"8. And then shall be revealed the wicked one, he whom our Lord Jesus shall finish off by the spirit of his mouth and shall render void by the revelation of his coming. 9. His coming even of him due to the working is of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

8.נתגלא עולא הו דמרן ישוע נסיפיוהי ברוח פומה ונבטליוהי בגלינא דמאתיתה
9.מאתיתה גיר דהו במעבדנותא הי דסטנא בכל חיל ואתותא ותדמרתא דגלתאוהידין

The expression "the revelation of his coming" at the end of verse 8 does not refer to Jesus. The two verses are both speaking of the same "coming" of the "wicked one." This is evident from the fact that "his coming" in verse 8 is immediately followed by the explanatory comment in verse 9 "even he whose coming is due to the working of Satan". The subject of these verses clearly is the "revelation of the wicked one", who has remained undetected as such and because of this many have not been aware of his "coming". The apostles specifically foretell the "coming" of the "Antichrist", but evidently the working of Satan is powerful enough to make his "coming" undetectable to most people. This is the reason why, when Jesus comes in his glory, he will "reveal" the "coming" of this "wicked one", at which time he will destroy the "Antichrist".

Therefore these verses are not speaking of 'the manifestation of the Lord's presence' as if Jesus' presence was invisible and needed to be revealed. But the subject of these verses and the context is "the revealing of the coming of the wicked one" and his subsequent destruction. It is quite amazing how these verses have been turned into a vehicle for teaching Christ's "invisible presence". Ironically the New World Translation renders the first two verses of this chapter as:

“However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.” — 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

From this text it is clear that the apostle was worried that we could easily be led to believe in something that hasn't taken place yet. This is exactly what the doctrine of "Jesus invisible presence" does. It makes us believe that Christ has already come, that the Lord's day has already started and that anointed have already been resurrected to heavenly life! Paul specifically warned us not to be shaken from our reason or to get excited because such a doctrine gives the impression of "being inspired" or because it comes from those who take the lead. Though it may be difficult to adjust our views I hope that this article will have helped you to come to a better understanding of what God's word really teaches about Jesus' "coming".


In conclusion:

Jesus and his disciples did not speak of a future period of time during which he would be "invisibly present". Instead they spoke of the time of his "coming" in Kingdom glory with all his angels as something to look forward to. Jesus did however promise that he would be with his disciples "all the days till the completion of the age". In a sense then Jesus has always been "invisibly present" to take care of his followers right from his departure up to now. But let us still keep in eager expectation of his "coming" in Kingdom power.
Christ is here since 1874.

How will you know he is here when he is invisible?
HELLO JIM....HOW ARE YOU

THE SCRIPTURE IN MY SIGNATURE TELLS IT ALL....THAT IT DOES NOT BELONG TO MAN TO GET HOLD OF THE TIMES OR THE SEASONS.....AND PUTTING DATES OUT THERE IS ONLY SOMETHING THAT MAN CAN BOAST ABOUT...

IS THERE EVEN A SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS INVISIBLE PRESENCE.....THE INVISIBLE PAROUSIA HAS UNDERMINED THE VERY REASON FOR CHRIST TO COME, AND THE THINGS THAT WILL TAKE PLACE....

I HAVE LET GO OF THE INVISIBLE PAROUSIA DOCTRINE...

TAKE CARE

SANDI
Sorry folks,

Anthony let me know I left out the meat.

Say the Lord returns future. And he is visible. Say he is truly in the wilderness. So now I tell you. I saw the Lord in the wilderness.
How can this scripture stand?
Mat 24:26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.


What about this? The days of the Son of man do not refer to the days before the Son of man, but when the Son of man is here, right? Are my days the days before I arrive, or the days that I am here? Was TV invented during my days, or before my days?

People are eating and drinking and getting married "during" the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all: after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed.

Does a sleeping person know the thief is in the house?
Luk 12:39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would have watched, and not have left his house to be broken through.
They do not know the thief is here, though the thief is in the house and they do not wake up. The scripture does not say the thief is caught, but by those who stay awake.

How about this? The earth is round, and half the earth is dark. How can this scripture acutally mean the literal meaning and not the "eyes of understanding."
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

Thanks Anthony for "quietly" pointing out my mistake, in a loving Christ like manner.



God bless.

By the way...my words. not Russell.

ASV
Hi Watcher,

Does not Luke 17:26 indicate signs that would exist prior to our Lord being revealed?

"... after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed."

Mat 24:26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. "

This is an important scripture, as it is a reminder to not listen to your or others chronologies. For it is those (like yourself) that teach Christ is here (He is in the wilderness) or (He is in the inner rooms). How can Christ be in the "wilderness" of some peoples minds or the "inner rooms" of Watchtower magazines; when our Lord said...“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36...)

Luke 12:40..."YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming."

Why would it necessary to heed this scripture to "keep ready" if one was to follow your interpretation, Watcher?

Listen to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christian love,

gogh
I don't want anyone following my interpetation. Prove it with the scriptures yourself. The scriptures do show a time will come when he is here and people will not know it. I just gave the scripture.

Quote:
GOGH:This is an important scripture, as it is a reminder to not listen to your or others chronologies. For it is those (like yourself) that teach Christ is here (He is in the wilderness) or (He is in the inner rooms). How can Christ be in the "wilderness" of some peoples minds or the "inner rooms" of Watchtower magazines; when our Lord said...“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36...)


I have NEVER said Christ is in the wilderness or anywhere else! I am pointing out that if he was to return in the flesh, and a person pointed out that he was someplace in the flesh, that would render the scripture a lie. It shows that when he is here, he must be invisible. I NOT ONCE SAID HE IS IN THE WILDERNESS OR THE INNER ROOMS. PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

When he is here, he is picking up the bride. The others (Great Company) are not ready. He arrived as a thief. Not enough holy spirit in them. Everybody scrambles! They then run out to get more oil (study the Word), but it is too late, as the Master has then taken the bride and left.

The days of the son of man, nobody has a clue. Life as usual. If a person does not admit he is here now...fine. Will he admit that when he does arrive, most will not know he is here?

One more look at the scripture:
Luk 17:26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise even as it came to pass in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all: after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed.
As you can see, during the days of the Son of man, business as usual. After the the Lord finishes taking his bride, it is like what happens when Lot left Sodom. When the Son of man is revealed, too late. The church is gone, and the tribulation must finish. How is he to be revealed when everyone knew he was here?


Quote:
“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36...)

You are saying NOBODY WILL EVER KNOW? Or nobody knew then. When he is here, will people know? The Son does not have a clue, even though he is now divine? He just waits around, and with no planning, the Father says..."Go!' Think that though.


The good news is after the tribulation, things will be awesome!

Dear Watcher,

Thank you so much for your response to my post.

Christian love,

gogh
YES CHRIST JESUS HAS BEEN PRESENT AND WITH MANKIND SCINCE HE ASCENDED TO THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER.....HE SAID HE WOULD BE WITH US ALWAYS TILL THE END......

THE ONLY DATE WHICH I'LL BELIEVE IS THE DATE CHRIST JESUS ASCENDED TO BE WITH HIS FATHER AS HIM BEING PRESENT...

TAKE CARE

SANDI
What about the scriptures, flowerchild?
HI JIM....YES THE SCRIPTURES....:yahoo:
Ok ay jim,

The question then for me is where does it say he is gathering the bride in "the days of the son of man" I beleive he is present but more like FC comment.. not 18xx 19xx

Thx,
Frank
Can we really say that the 'Days of the Son of man" started when he became "present"? I would think his "days" started at Pentecost. People would be marrying right up to the end of his "days".
Same with when people will be saying,"he is here, or there". This will happen during the "days" prior, to his second coming, not after he arrives.
Clearly, he has been invisibly present since Pentecost.:dancing::giggle:
HI TDAND E-MAGINE...HOW ARE YOU...:rose:

NOW IF WE BELIEVE HE CAME IN 1914 AS THE WTS TEACHES....THEN INITIALLY CHRIST GOT PART OF HIS BRIDE AND NOW HE GETS HIS BRIDE ONE MEMBER AT A TIME.....

THIS DOES NOT FIT IN WITH THE SCRIPTURE IN THESS. THAT SAYS THEY WILL ALL TOGETHER BE CAUGHT UP TO BE WITH THE LORD...FIRST THE DEAD THEN THE LIVING WILL ALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER AND BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER.......

I WOULD THINK CHRIST WOULD WANT HIS BRIDE ALL AT ONCE AS THE SCRIPTURES SAY.....'ALTOGETHER'

AT LEAST FOR ME THIS IS HOW I SEE IT....NOT SAYING ANYONE IS WRONG OR RIGHT...THIS IS JUST HOW I UNDERSTAND  THE SCRIPTURES PRESENTLY...

YES..I TOO SEE CHRIST AS BEING PRESENT FROM PENTECOST

TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF AND HAVE A GOOD NIGHT

SANDI
Dear Sandi and all,

The main problem with i-witness' research is that it assumes that an Aramaic translation of the New Testament reflects the original Aramaic words that Jesus spoke. The translators never met Jesus, and they used the Greek text as their source.
present since pentecost...:huh:
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