Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

WARNING ... LOOONG thread ... but hopefully well worth reading ...:love::read:

Good afternoon ... now evening ... my dear brothers and sisters ...:D:grouphug:

How beautiful it is to be among such loving and spiritually minded servants of God and followers of Christ Jesus!!:ok::cheer:

With the Memorial of Christ's death approaching ever nearer I thought it might be good to go over an important aspect that most of JW's are sadly ...:crybaby: not aware of ... and what that means for them ...

So ...

WAS Judas Iscariet there for the celebration of the New Covenant arrangement that Jesus inaugerated on his last Passover among us ... and what does it MEAN if he WAS there ...?

First of all one might ask ... is knowing whether Judas was there or not really important? The ultimate answer to that question is a resounding ... YES!!

But as Jehovah's Witnesses, why is there any confusion as to whether he was there or not? Isn't it CLEAR that he was NOT there? Does not our literature teach that is so? And is our literature not based on the BIBLE, Jehovah God's Holy Inspired Word?

We are counseled to MAKE SURE of ALL things ... and to HOLD FAST to what is FINE as is mentioned in 1 Thess.5:21 ...

21 Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.

Various other Bible translations use the word 'good' ... based on the original Greek word kalos which means according to Strong's ...

of uncertain aff.; prop. beautiful, but chiefly (fig.) good (lit. or mor.), i.e. valuable or virtuous :- x better, fair, good (-ly), honest, meet, well, worthy.

Therefore, in order to MAKE SURE of that ALL that we believe is SOLIDLY based on GOD'S WORD ... a word that is GOOD and HONEST and one that we seek to HOLD FAST or HOLD TIGHT on to ... it may be good to examine a bit more closely the question as to whether Judas was present at the institution of the new covenant.

First of all, let us examine what Jehovah's Witnesses are taught and then compare that to with what is written in God's Word ...

If one were to ask any one of Jehovah's Witnesses if Judas was present they would unhesitatingly answer ... OF COURSE NOT ... he was DISMISSED BEFORE the new covenant was celebrated. It was only the FAITHFUL ELEVEN that that partook.

Some articles to back up their thinking would be articles such as ...

w58 7/15 p. 445 par. 17 Beware that You Do Not Lose Your Place!

17 “No man that has put his hand to a plow and looks at the things behind is well fitted for the kingdom of God.” Thus Jesus stated an important principle, namely, it is endurance that wins. Endurance is required of all those who will retain their place in the New World society. “He that has endured to the finish is the one that will be saved.” “Prove yourself faithful even with the danger of death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Luke 9:62; Matt. 24:13; Rev. 2:10) We once accepting the responsibilities that go with a theocratic appointment, faithfully sticking to that assignment is required. Never be a quitter, for quitters are disapproved by Jehovah and are removed from their places of appointment. Demas was such a quitter, one who forsook his theocratic privileges, simply because “he loved the present system of things.” Judas Iscariot was another quitter and he lost all hope of a return to a place of life. It was after this unfaithful one had been dismissed from the last passover meal that Jesus said to the remaining faithful eleven: “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” Since covenant breakers and those “false to agreements,” as quitters, “are deserving of death,” covenant keeping becomes an all-important matter.—2 Tim. 4:10; Luke 22:28, 29; Rom. 1:31, 32.

One thing you may take note of in this particular article is that it is NOT the 'new covenant' that is being spoken of here ... but RATHER ... the KINGDOM COVENANT ... a DIFFERENT covenant for a DIFFERENT purpose!

w98 2/1 p. 8 par. 2 Jehovah Is a God of Covenants

2 It was at this time that, after dismissing Judas Iscariot, Jesus instituted the only annual religious observance commanded for Christians—the Memorial of his death. The record says: “As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant,” which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.’” (Matthew 26:26-28) Jesus’ followers were to memorialize his death in a simple, dignified manner. And Jesus referred to a covenant in connection with his death. In the account in Luke, it is called “the new covenant.”—Luke 22:20.

In this particular article it now is talking about the NEW COVENANT and again reaffirming that Judas WAS dismissed.

w68 10/1 p. 596 Maintaining Balance in Human Relationships

A NEW COMMANDMENT

18 Later, after washing his apostles’ feet and dismissing Judas Iscariot, Jesus again drew attention to the example that he had set, saying to the eleven remaining ones: “I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:34, 35) As circumcised Jews under the Law covenant, the apostles were already under the command to love their neighbors as themselves. (Matt. 22:39; Lev. 19:18) But now Jesus said that his true followers would be recognized by their demonstrating a more extensive, superior love—in imitation of his example.

Again this article speaks about Judas being dismissed after the apostles feet were washed.

w51 1/15 p. 44 par. 3 “The Lord’s Evening Meal”

3 The cup of Jehovah and the table of Jehovah are spoken of in connection with the Lord’s evening meal. Likely you call it “the Lord’s supper”. (1 Cor. 11:20) This name designates the special meal which the Lord Jesus set up among his loyal followers on the night in which he was betrayed by Judas Iscariot. One of Jesus’ followers, the apostle Paul, gives it this name in his letter to the Corinthians. Calling attention to their disorderliness about the matter, he writes: “Therefore, when you come together to one place, it is not possible to eat the Lord’s evening meal. . . . For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: ‘This means my body which is in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.’ He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: ‘This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.”—1 Cor. 11:20-26, NW; also Moffatt’s translation.

By this article saying that only Jesus' LOYAL FOLLOWERS were present for this special meal, the new covenant, would again affirm that Judas, who everyone knows was NOT LOYAL couldn't have been present.

w56 1/15 pp. 48-49 “The Table of Demons” versus “The Table of Jehovah”

“THE LORD’S EVENING MEAL”

14 Four of Jesus’ disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul, give us detailed descriptions of what took place then. Matthew was personally there as one of the twelve apostles. Paul received his information about it “from the Lord” by direct revelation. (1 Cor. 11:20, 23) All the accounts differ somewhat in language and in some details, but all unitedly establish the main features. As a faithful Jew according to the flesh, Jesus gave instructions for celebrating the passover at Jerusalem, the holy city where Jehovah had placed his name. (Deut. 16:1-7) With whom did Jesus celebrate this his last passover that night? Not as in previous years with his family, that is, with Mary his earthly mother and with her sons, Jesus’ half brothers. Of course, she and her sons were at Jerusalem for the passover, for the next afternoon Mary was at the torture stake on which Jesus was hanged and he talked to her from it. Her other sons had doubtless brought her up to Jerusalem for the passover. However, as passover celebration groups at Jerusalem were small, generally about ten, Jesus arranged to celebrate this final passover with his twelve apostles. At the table he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you, I will not eat it again until it becomes fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” (Luke 22:15, 16, NW) So Jesus had something special in mind for this passover night. What? The setting up of a new supper or evening meal for them.
15 Here is how it proceeded and what Jesus said, according to Matthew, who was there: “As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant” which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. But I tell you, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of my Father.’ Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the mount of Olives.”—Matt. 26:26-30, NW.

Now what I find interesting about this particular article is that they leave out the account in JOHN ... also it mentions 12 apostles ... and DOESN'T mention that Judas was dismissed before this special meal began!

w52 2/15 p. 103 par. 8 The Memorial—Are You Entitled to Partake?

8 “And the disciples did as Jesus ordered them, and they got things ready for the passover. When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. . . . As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant” which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. But I tell you, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of my Father.’”—Matt. 26:19-29, NW; Mark 14:22-25, Mo.

Again, we see another reference to 12 DISCIPLES being present when the memorial, the new covenant, was instituted by Christ!

w98 2/1 p. 8 Jehovah Is a God of Covenants

Jehovah Is a God of Covenants

“I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant.”—JEREMIAH 31:31.
ON THE night of Nisan 14, 33 C.E., Jesus celebrated the Passover with his 12 apostles. Since he knew that this would be his final meal with them and that he would soon die at the hands of his enemies, Jesus took advantage of the occasion to explain many important matters to his closest disciples.—John 13:1–17:26.
2 It was at this time that, after dismissing Judas Iscariot, Jesus instituted the only annual religious observance commanded for Christians—the Memorial of his death. The record says: “As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant,” which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.’” (Matthew 26:26-28) Jesus’ followers were to memorialize his death in a simple, dignified manner. And Jesus referred to a covenant in connection with his death. In the account in Luke, it is called “the new covenant.”—Luke 22:20.

This article again reiterates that Judas was dismissed BEFORE the new covenant 'meal' was ate.

w81 4/1 pp. 9-10 Celebrating the Death of the Greatest Man Ever on Earth

Later that same day Jesus’ death on an execution stake and the interment of his corpse in a garden tomb took place. Like the Passover lamb eaten by his apostles the night before, he had died, but not a bone of his body had been broken. (Ex. 12:46; Ps. 34:20) The faithful apostles had been put under obligation to celebrate his death annually on Passover day. After having fulfilled his own obligation under Jewish law of observing the Passover supper with his apostles, Jesus at once instituted among them something to commemorate his death. It came to be called the Lord’s Supper, or Evening Meal. The inspired account of Jesus’ instituting the new supper reads:
“As they continued eating [the Passover supper], Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant,” which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. But I tell you, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of my Father.’ Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.”—Matt. 26:26-30.
In connection with the Passover supper, Jesus had dismissed the traitorous disciple, Judas Iscariot.

This article shows that it was only FAITHFUL ONES who celebrated and again spells out clearly that the 'traitorous (clearly not faithful) Judas was dimissed'.

w72 11/15 p. 685 par. 21 Producing the Chief Agent of Divine Rulership

He now set up what is called the Lord’s Supper, and when he handed out the cup of wine to his faithful apostles he said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.” (Luke 22:20) Jesus shed his own blood to validate that covenant.

And once more we see that it was only the FAITHFUL APOSTLES who celebrated the 'new coveant' with their Lord and Master, Christ Jesus.

So, with ALL this "EVIDENCE", and with Scriptures being used, it should be CLEAR and without ANY DOUBT that we should ACCURATELY conclude that Judas WASN'T there ...

However, it BEHOOVES us to go to the SOURCE ... JEHOVAH HIMSELF ... to MAKE SURE ...


Let us go back to that sad, and yet important night of Nisan 14, 33 C.E. and see how events unfolded by COMPARING the various accounts in Matthew, Mark, Luke ... AND ...John, some of whom add different details as the night progresses.

One very important thing in doing this comparison is to realize that one of the writers, Luke, wrote the events in CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER, in the successive order that the events occurred so that WE would KNOW what happened and WHEN it happened on that fateful night. Luke is also the ONLY one of the four gospels to speak about the THREE covenants that were celebrated that night ... the OLD LAW COVENANT (original passover), the NEW COVENANT ... and the KINGDOM COVENANT.

Luke 1:3,4 says of this ...

3 I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in logical order to you, most excellent The·oph′i·lus, 4 that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.

The Greek word used for 'logical order' is kathexes and means as it says in Strong's ...

thereafter, i.e., consecutively; as a noun (by ellip. of noun) a subsequent person or time:- after (-ward), by (in) order.

also taken from the Greek word hexes which means ...

(in the sens of taking hold of, i.e. adjoining); successive:- after, following, x morrow, next

Just to be CLEAR ...

The dictionary meaning for the word 'consecutive' is ...

Following in uninterrupted succession; successive; Characterized by logical sequence.

The dictionary meaning for the word 'successive' is ...

Following in sequence; consecutive

So, now, let us start off with how the evening BEGAN ...

Matt. 26:20 ...

20 When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.

Mark 14:17...

17 After evening had fallen he came with the twelve.

Luke 22:14-17 ...

14 At length when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I suffer; 16 for I tell YOU, I will not eat it again until it becomes fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And, accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves; 18 for I tell YOU, From now on I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of God arrives.”

Here we see the PASSOVER being celebrated by the 12 apostles ...

IMMEDIATELY AFTER the passover celebration Jesus instituted the celebration of the NEW COVENANT ... and this is even in harmony with one of earlier quoted Watchtower articles ...

w81 4/1 pp. 9-10 Celebrating the Death of the Greatest Man Ever on Earth

After having fulfilled his own obligation under Jewish law of observing the Passover supper with his apostles, Jesus at once instituted among them something to commemorate his death. It came to be called the Lord’s Supper, or Evening Meal.

Now here is where it begins to get INTERESTING ... when you are trying to sort it out ... a MAJOR bit of PRAYER will HELP here ...

Since LUKE is written in CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER ... I thought it would perhaps be best to put what comes NEXT here so you can see the WHEN events occurred in more concise manner ... (hopefully)

This is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in understanding the TIMING of events on this night and PROVING whether or not Judas was there for the institution of the 'new covenant' ...

Luke 22:19-27 ...

19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!” 23 So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this.

24 However, there also arose a heated dispute among them over which one of them seemed to be greatest. 25 But he said to them: “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those having authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 YOU, though, are not to be that way. But let him that is the greatest among YOU become as the youngest, and the one acting as chief as the one ministering. 27 For which one is greater, the one reclining at the table or the one ministering? Is it not the one reclining at the table? But I am in YOUR midst as the one ministering.

Here we see that the new covenant was NOW INSTITUTED by Christ Jesus in verses 19,20 ... and WHO DO WE SEE WAS STILL THERE ...?

Look again at what it says in verse 21 ...

21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.

Did you notice that this statement as being said AFTER the new covenant had been FINISHED ...

After Luke records that Jesus says that his 'betrayer', Judas, is WITH THEM at the table after they celebrated the new covenant ... what happens NEXT as is mentioned in verse 23 ...?

23 So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this.

Now, we can clearly see that it was AFTER the new covenant was celebrated that Jesus had said that one of the disciples would betray him, and that the disciples began asking who among them would do such a thing, they also had an argument about who would be greatest, (an ongoing 'concern' of theirs), he identified the betrayer as the one who would dip his morsel, and Jesus says to Judas that he is the one who would betray him.

Now though ... is this in HARMONY with the OTHER accounts ...?

Now let's take a peek at the other accounts and we can get a wee bit more information that will help to PROVE that Judas was indeed AT the new covenant celebration and celebrated it along with the rest ...

If we go back to Matthew WHEN did this discussion take place about who would be the one to betray Christ Jesus and WHAT did Judas do WITH Jesus and the common bowl ...?

Matt. 26:21-25 ...

21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” 22 Being very much grieved at this, they commenced each and every one to say to him: “Lord, it is not I, is it?” 23 In reply he said: “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24 True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born.” 25 By way of reply Judas, who was about to betray him, said: “It is not I, is it, Rabbi?” He said to him: “You yourself said [it].”

Mark 14:18-21 ...

18 And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said: “Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU, who is eating with me, will betray me.” 19 They started to be grieved and to say to him one by one: “It is not I, is it?” 20 He said to them: “It is one of the twelve, who is dipping with me into the common bowl. 21 True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for that man if he had not been born.”

John 13:4,21,22,26 ...

4 got up from the evening meal and laid aside his outer garments. And, taking a towel, he girded himself. So, here we see so far that the annual Passover is in progress and ALL of the apostles are with Jesus, sharing the meal together and Jesus makes mention of the fact that ONE of them will betray him.

21 After saying these things, Jesus became troubled in spirit, and he bore witness and said: “Most truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me.” 22 The disciples began to look at one another, being at a loss as to which one he was saying [it] about. 23 There was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, and Jesus loved him.

26 Therefore Jesus answered: “It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip.” And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car′i·ot.

Now since we KNOW Luke was recorded in CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER ... and he spoke about the same discussions as Matthew, Mark and John when they wrote about Jesus' betrayer at the table, and the apostles questioning who that betrayer would be as having occurred AFTER the new covenant was celebrated is there another piece we can add to the puzzle to help clear up WHEN Judas left ...

Notice what is said at John 13:26,27 as to the TIMING of WHEN Judas was asked by Christ Jesus to LEAVE and IMMEDIATELY AFTER he did WHAT ...

26 Therefore Jesus answered: “It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip.” And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car′i·ot. 27 And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly.”

And John also helps us to further understand the timing of events and that Judas went out IMMEDIATELY after he received the morsel ... the very morsel that the other writers clearly show he ate during the discussion that took place about the betrayer at the table and who he was to be ... and which discussion took place AFTER the new covenant was inaugurated.

John 13:28-30 ...

28 However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him. 29 Some, in fact, were imagining, since Judas was holding the money box, that Jesus was telling him: “Buy what things we need for the festival,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night.

Now ANOTHER important question to consider is ...

Was there a covenant made between the FAITHFUL apostles and Jesus that Judas was NOT at ...?

Yes indeed!

For going back to Luke 22:28-30 we see ANOTHER covenant mentioned by Christ Jesus.

28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Yes, Judas COULDN'T have been at this institution of the KINGDOM COVENANT ... for he had NOT STUCK WITH JESUS had he ...

Also, of note in the inaugueration of the KINGDOM covenant ... VERY DIFFERENT from the NEW covenant ... do we see the REPASSING of the EMBLEMS ...?

No ... just Jesus making a promise or covenant with his faithful 11 apostles that they would rule with him in his heavenly kingdom.

Yes, the NEW COVENANT was for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS ... while the KINGDOM COVENANT was for ruling kings and priests who would help judge mankind ...

So, WHO desperately needed FORGIVENESS OF SINS ...

Was it not ALL mankind ...? Does not ALL mankind sin ...?

WHO did Jesus DIE FOR ...? Was it for just a chosen few ... the ones who he chose to rule with him in heaven ...? Or was it for ALL of us sinners ... all of those who descended from Adam ... who would be THANKFUL for this sacrifice of Christ Jesus and would put faith in it and in Christ ...?

Matt. 20:28 says of why Jesus came and what his death meant for us ... the shedding of his blood ... the 'blood of the covenant' or the 'new covenant' of which he was mediator between us and Jehovah ...

28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”

The original Greek for 'many' ... is ALL ... and is translated as such by most other Bibles.

1 Tim. 2:5 ...

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

So now, after sifting through the EVIDENCE ... we see a startling CONTRADICTION ...

A contradication that begs the question ...:confused::confused:

Whom do I believe ...:dontknow:

What is printed by MAN ...:( or by what is written through inspiration by JEHOVAH GOD ...:)

The choice of what to believe is up to YOU ... :huh:

Very thorough look at it BR. Thank you for taking the time to write and present this. :thumbsup:

It's amazing to think about. All these years spent keeping a hawkish gaze lest someone partake "unworthily" and here Jesus gives the cup and the bread and instructs them "all" to eat and drink. Now there are of course reasons as to why Judas had to eat and drink; but, still I find it interesting. Jesus wasn't near as protective over the emblems as some denominations, including the WT, tend to be.

It's even more thrilling to know that Jesus lowered himself and washed his muderer's feet; but, that part is not in dispute.

Hello BR.

Great job! :clap: I have brought this up on other boards, and the only thing I got was the Luke didn't put things down in order! Although I think you showed otherwise! :thumbsup:

It's really an eye opener, at least when you are out of the JW mindset, when you see people who "claim" to use the Bible for all their beliefs, and yet when you show them something, from the Bible, that does not go along with WT teachings, they back the society instead of accepting what the Bible clearly shows! :read:

I hope some of the active JW's here will discuss this!

Take care.

Andy:

Whats amazing to me, is that Luke boldly states, at the beginning of his gospel, that he writes accurately and in chronological order. Why would he state such? Because obviously, he felt that Mathew did not!
Another discrepancy, in Mathew's account, vs. 26-28, it seems that Jesus passed the bread first, then the wine. But in Luke's, vs. 17-19, it seems the opposite. At any rate, Judas must still have been present, Lk. vs.21, after the passing, and then Jesus said, Math. "he who dips with me in the common bowl". Strange thou, that Luke doesn't mention this?

Greetings brothers and sisters may you all continue in Jehovah's favor and blessings always:

My dear sister Bruisedreed, many months back at the old Paradise Cafe, I had posted a very similar thread on Judas. Many of the points you made I had also made as well, good to know that we are in agreement. I had added some additional thoughts then as well, I thought you might like to compare notes, so I am reposting it below.

May Christ's' love and peace be with you and all our wonderfull brotherhood in our search for "truth", brother Fred.

Judas, Was He There?

Mathew Chapter 26:

20 That evening, while [Jesus] was reclining at the table 21 eating with the twelve disciples, he said, ‘I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me.’
25 Then Judas, the one who was about to betray him, asked, ‘That isn’t what I am, is it Rabbi?’ And [Jesus] replied, ‘You said it yourself.’
Notice please, that the Bible does not say that he left at that time, but immediately goes on to say,
26 As they ate, Jesus took a loaf, and after giving thanks, broke it and gave it to the disciples saying, ‘Take some and eat it, because this is my body.’ 27 He also took a cup [of wine], and after giving thanks, gave it to them saying, ‘All of you drink out of it, 28 because this is my blood of the Sacred Agreement, which will be poured out for many to forgive [their] sins.

Mark Chapter 14:

20 Then he answered, ‘It’s one of the twelve who is dipping into the common bowl with me.

Notice again, the Bible does not say that he left at that time, but then goes on to say,

22 And as they ate, [Jesus] took a loaf, then offered praise and broke it. He gave it to them saying, ‘Take it. This is my body.’   23 Then he took a cup, offered thanks, gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And he said to them, ‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for MANY.

Luke Chapter 22:
19 Then he took a loaf [of bread], gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them saying, ‘This is my body, which is being handed over for you. Keep doing this in memory of me.’ 20 And he did the same thing with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the New Sacred Agreement of my blood, which is being poured out for you.

Notice he does not mention the betrayer until AFTER the New Covenant was instituted, but then right after it, He goes on to say,

21 ‘Look, the hand of my betrayer is WITH ME AT THE TABLE.

Some so called Scholars say that this is not the proper order of events, basically saying that what Luke wrote down was an error? WHO IS ANYONE, to say that the Bible scripture written by the INSPIRED disciple Luke, recorded in the Bible is in error??? In addition, Luke was a Physician who no doubt was very careful in recording things correctly. Notice, Luke chapter 1: 3----- I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in logical order to you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know fully the certainty of the things you have been taught.  The fact is that all 4 accounts harmonize if we look for the correct understanding.

These 3 accounts discussed above, coupled with John’s account gives us the correct understanding, please follow the reasoning. It appears that in Luke’s account in verse 21, AFTER the institution of the New Covenant, which was for all men’s salvation, “the forgiveness of sins for many,” THEN, is when Judas left.  How do we know that? Let’s now go to John’s account and see how that could possibly be.

John Chapter 13:

4 he, (Jesus) got up from the meal and laid his outer clothing aside. Then he took a towel and wrapped it around him, 5 put water in a bowl, and started washing his disciples’ feet and drying them with the towel that he had around him.
10 However, Jesus told him, ‘Someone who has taken a bath is completely clean and doesn’t need to have any more than his feet washed. And you men are clean… but not all.’ 18 ‘Now, I’m not talking about all of you – I know who I chose – because, the scripture must be fulfilled, He who used to chew on my bread has lifted his heel against me. 27 AFTER [eating] the bread, the Opposer entered [Judas]. And Jesus said, ‘Hurry up and do what you’re going to do.’ 30 So, [Judas] left immediately after he received the piece of bread, LATE IN THE EVENING!

Notice that from the time that Jesus got up and washed the disciples feet till the time of Judas leaving late in the evening, there is no mention of the New Covenant (passing of the bread and the wine?) That is because it was done BEFORE Jesus washed their feet and while Judas was still there. But after Judas left, THEN Jesus instituted the Kingdom Covenant with the remaining disciples. Notice Jesus’ words in Luke 22:28-29

Luke Chapter 22:

28 ‘However, you are the ones who stuck with me during my trials, 29 so I’m making a Sacred Agreement with YOU, just as my FATHER made a Sacred Agreement with ME, for a KINGDOM… 30 that YOU may eat and drink at MY table in MY KINGDOM and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

Now, Jesus rightfully says to the 11 DISCIPLES, YOU are the one’s who stuck with me, and I make a SPECIAL COVENANT with YOU.

Judas did not stick with him and he was not there for the Special Kingdom Covenant that Jesus made with the one’s that stuck with him.

It would appear that just like a prophet sent by Jehovah to the nation of Israel would confront them with their apostasy, Jesus accomplished the same thing by displaying to Judas in front of all twelve disciples how Jesus himself was the one who would redeem all men from their dying condition to everlasting life through the New Covenant. In this way the apostasy, and grave error that Judas was about to commit, was on display for all to see, but more importantly, was made to bear heavily on Judas’ conscience, which would, and soon did, catch up with him to the point of his own destruction. Mathew 27: 3-5

Notice verse 3 says, [Judas] seeing he had been condemned, felt remorse. Would not that be exactly what Jesus accomplished by him being present through the institution of the New Covenant? Yes, he had been made to see that he was condemned, Mathew 26:24, Mark 14:21, Luke 22:22, (true the Son of man is going away, but woe to the man that betrays him, it would have been better if that man was never born.)

Some have made the claim that Judas was not there, as Jesus would not have included him in the New Covenant. This is because they teach that the New Covenant is the same as the Kingdom Covenant which was a covenant for Jesus’ disciples to share His table with Him in his Kingdom as kings to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel, this being the Anointed class.

So the question is, is the New Covenant the same as the Kingdom Covenant? It does not appear to be so. In Mathew and Mark and Luke, the cup means the New Covenant (symbolizing Jesus’ blood) which was to be poured out for MANY, for forgiveness of sins.

But now notice in Luke 22: versus 27-30, Jesus points out that the one who is reclining at the table is greater than the one who is ministering. What can we gain from this verse 27? This, Jesus was up ministering to them and this was AFTER the passing of the bread and wine, as now Jesus goes on to say, YOU are the one’s that stuck with me, and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father made a covenant with Me.

Notice, there is no mention of a cup or New Covenant, no, just a covenant between the one’s that stuck with him, for THEM to sit at His table in the Kingdom to judge the 12 tribes of Israel, NOT FOR FORGIVENESS OF SINS FOR MANY.

In conclusion, was Judas there? ALL the evidence in the scriptures shows he was.  To come to any other conclusion, one would have to insert words and meanings that are not there,  which means, those who claim Luke’s account is in error, are the one’s themselves in error. 2 Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED OF GOD-------

I know that Papias in the earliest mention of the Gospel of Mark states that Mark wrote down what Peter taught, and it was true; but, not in chronological order.   To the contrary it seems like Luke took great care to make sure he did put things down correctly as he was writing in the pattern of other historical works where such order was expected.

Wow ... I am sooo thankful that so many have taken the time to 'wade' through my research and comments ....

Knowing it ... and showing it ... can sometimes be EASIER to explain than words ... there is SO MUCH that can be said ... :read:

I was hoping it would come out logically and sanely and relatively easy to follow ... I went through it on paper with scriptures and then again at least three different ways on computer to explain it as concisely and 'fairly' (showing BOTH sides of the issue) as I could ... since I was just writing free flow I'm sure I could have done much better ... and thanks for not 'noticing' the spelling and grammatical errors ...:blush:;):thumbup:

My dear br. Truthseeker ... I LOVED yours too!! :heartbeat:Isn't it AMAZING ... and yet why should it be ... 'truth' is 'truth' it cannot change ... that our thinking process was so very similar ... :friends:

I personally think that so far the only way to actually SEE it is to FIRST show that Luke writes things CONCISELY ... and yet IN ORDER ... and then read HIS account FIRST ...

For me it was an eye opener ... because that is how I discovered it about three or four years ago ... I decided to read the entire gospel accounts in preparing for the memorial ... not broke up the way the text does it ... and when I really noticed that Luke accounts were written as they were, when I came to the memorial section it was as if a LIGHT went on in my understanding ...:bulb:

I tried to keep it specifically to the issue of JUDAS ... which was HARD as SO MANY OTHER issues are raised by this ...

To me I think REALLY KNOWING that he was there is PIVOTAL in our being able to wrap our heads around what the NEW COVENANT IS ALL ABOUT ... what it really means for MANKIND as a WHOLE ... and not just a CHOSEN FEW ...

It is like the first break in a chain ... once we can break through that one ... the rest is EASIER (not easy) to come to grips with ... and the DEEPER realizations of the meaning of the new covenant only draws us CLOSER to our Ransomer and Redeemer and Savior and his and our Heavenly Father!!

Thanks again for reading my thoughts and reasonings and conclusions ...:read:

I hope and pray that those who have some doubt will do THEIR OWN RESEARCH ... research that will truly take HOURS to do ... to check, recheck, cross reference and so on ... but it will be well worth the effort!

I found that in studying about it and then in trying to write it I truly had to ask for Jehovah's help in being discerning and understanding of what the BIBLE was teaching ... and I have no doubt without doing this I would have found it a A LOT HARDER to comprehend if at all ...

We truly do need to ask for wisdom and discernment and understanding as students of God's Word ... for it is his holy spirit that allows us to see ... and I am so very grateful that it allowed me too!!:blush::clap::cheer:

Luv to yu all ... your sis BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:

WOW...thankyou BR...you are always so thorough....and its so encouraging....I think I would love to print it out and present it to the elders:confused:.....if I were you I would be tempted to .....there isn't anything here they can refute , other than say well we are going to take the GB;s word over Gods word....I don't know how much clearer it can be that Judas was included ....you made an exhaustive search and here it is for all to know and to see....proof once again the GB are wrong about one more thing:(

Take Care of yourself and God bless you:thumbup::giverose:

Greetings brothers and sisters Jehovah's unending blessings be with you always:

My dearest sister Bruisedreed, you said,

You are absolutely correct, as this is certifiable means for us to be sure we should be partaking of the emblems as we are in the New Covenant for sure.

I am grateful to you for your very hard work in the deep study and research that you did to compile so many different avenues of thought, and yes it is certain that we do need Jehovah's help and direction to understand it. In fact I remember what Don Cameron said in his book "Captives of a Concept", you can present indisputable scriptural facts to someone, but they more likely will refuse to accept it especially if the GB says differently. (FC is correct in her statement regarding that)

Much Christian love to you and yours and all my dear ones out there, brother Fred

Hi again TS ...:giverose:
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I sadly fear you and flowerchild is right in your assessment ...:(

My mom-in-law mentioned the idea about Judas NOT being there according to what she read in Luke ... and that Luke was written in the order in which the events occurred to a VERY DEAR brother ... (just still asleep ... although he too LOVES to research ... but as it mostly in the 'publications' ... oh well I'm sure you can finish my line of thought on that one)

She and my hubby and I were SHOCKED ... and yet not so very surprised when we thought about it ... at what he said ...

He got out his Greatest Man book and read from it that Judas had been dismissed ... My mom-in-law said but the BIBLE says different! (he used to be an elder ... a GOOD and CARING elder too although he is not one now ... too sick) and then he said ...

Ya might like to sit down for this one ... oh yeah ... since your at your computer you must be sitting down already ...:P oh well then ... hold onto your chair ...;)

He said that the Greatest Man book was written TO CORRECT ... YES ... CORRECT ... the account in LUKE ...!! (he has the UTMOST FAITH in the GB and thinks we should listen to them in EVERYTHING ...) Although nowwwww ... he read an article in a recent WT and is actually serious thinking about writing to them for they had LIED in an article and he is VERY UPSET about it ...:readthis: hopefully this is the FIRST STEP to his 'waking up' and smelling the coffee ...:coffeeread::drinking:

I'm glad you too think recognizing that Judas wasn't there means what it means ... and the it OPENS up the 'new covenant' for ALL of JW's not just those who are of the heavenly hope ... and that we should ALL partake ...

speaking of which ... in researching I found an interesting point in an article (one of MANY) that said something very telling to ME ... hold on a sec will you until I run downstairs and get it ...:giverose:

Whew ... I'm back ...;):siskiss::whistle:

What do you think of some of the following comments ...:confused::happyheart:

w89 2/1 p. 18 par. 14 Will You Benefit From God’s Covenants?

14 Hence, the new covenant would be made operative by Jesus’ blood. On the basis of such a perfect sacrifice, God could ‘forgive error and sin’ once and for all. Think what that would mean! Being able to forgive completely the sins of devoted humans in Adam’s family, God could view them as sinless, beget them as spiritual sons of the Greater Abraham, and then anoint them with holy spirit. (Romans 8:14-17) Thus, the new covenant validated by Jesus’ sacrifice enables his disciples to become the secondary part of the seed of Abraham. Paul wrote: “Through his death [Jesus would] bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil; and [he would] emancipate all those who for fear of death were subject to slavery all through their lives. For he is really not assisting angels at all, but he is assisting Abraham’s seed.”—Hebrews 2:14-16; 9:14.

So I have to ask myself sometimes ... do they really understand what they write!?

For does not ALL OF IMPERFECT HUMANS NEED to be FORGIVEN of their SINS ... are we not ALL subject to death ...?

Just one other article a couple of points from it ...:giverose:

w56 1/15 pp. 48-49 “The Table of Demons” versus “The Table of Jehovah”

26 So it was necessary for the blood of Jesus as a perfect human sacrifice to be poured out in order to release us from the condemnation of sins and transgression, from which condemnation we could not be released by the animal sacrifices under the former law covenant. (Heb. 9:15, NW) Since the new covenant promised God’s forgiveness of sins and since the wine in the cup pictured Jesus’ clean, perfect lifeblood necessary to that new covenant, Jesus rightly said: “This means my ‘blood of the covenant’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.” (Matt. 26:27, 28, NW) Those Christians who are taken into the new covenant and who thus become spiritual Israelites are properly the Christians entitled to drink of the cup of the Lord’s evening meal.

30 Drinking his blood does not mean undertaking the responsibility for his death, but means gratefully accepting it by faith and imbibing the benefits of his lifeblood poured out in sacrifice. Those who demanded Jesus’ death by hanging on the torture stake were the ones that were shocked at the thought of drinking his blood and that refused to drink it by faith. It was those men who undertook the responsibility for his death after governor Pontius Pilate had said: “I am innocent of the blood of this man.” They said: “His blood come upon us and upon our children.” (Matt. 27:24, 25, NW) Later the Jewish Supreme Court objected to the apostles: “You are determined to bring the blood of this man [Jesus] upon us,” and yet they refused to drink Jesus’ blood figuratively and thus show they were innocent.—Acts 5:27, 28, NW.

31 For thus faithlessly refusing to drink his blood those Jews were not brought into the new covenant and did not drink the only life-giving “true drink” to salvation.

35 The Christians in the new covenant who drink of the wine cup and eat of the loaf of unleavened bread show by this action that they are partaking of the human sacrifice of Christ, both of its blood and of its flesh. They are thus picturing how they are “drinking the cup of Jehovah” and “partaking of ‘the table of Jehovah,’” being “sharers with the altar.” They are picturing how they are partaking of the benefit of forgiveness of sins and of salvation through Christ’s blood-and-flesh sacrifice. So now the big question is, With whom are they sharing or having communion, companionship, association, when doing this by faith each day and symbolically each year at the Lord’s evening meal? “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a sharing [Greek, koi.no.ni´a] in the blood of the Christ? The loaf which we break, is it not a sharing [koi.no.ni´a] in the body of the Christ?” Yes, but sharing in these things with whom? Of course, it is a sharing with all the “congregation of God,” with all who “have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones.” (1 Cor. 1:2, NW) That is to say, with all the spiritual Israelites who are in the new covenant.

As a FAITHFUL follower of Christ Jesus ... who has a DEEP THANKFULNESS and OVERWHELMING GRATITUDE for the sacrifice of my Lord and Savior ...:heartbeat::heartbeat::heartbeat: how could I NOT partake ...?:dontknow:

Now I know they believe 'only' the 'anointed' are 'spiritual Israelites' ... aren't I glad to know I am one too!!:D:cheer:

Luv as always ... your sis BR :bouncyhearts: :sheepy:

HI BR...so their analogy is we need the blood Jesus poured out for our sins....but we don't need a covenant:confused: seems all of us sinners need a covenant as this includes the need for Christs blood...which is included as a symbol in the NC.....:confused:

As you pointed out they don't even realize what they are saying half the time....as we are all guilty of this at times...but please they can't even be questioned and reasoned with...who do they think they are God himself....well in a way they do don't they....you know the only channel....if they would quit being so prideful and one way they could learn a few things.....even Jesus Christ our Lord the one who died for us could be questioned and he let ones use their own decernment.....the WTS is just unbelievable literally...and to think all the poor members hanging on their every word.....they don't even realize they worship and idolize the GB.....

To think they would deny us the NC...which is symbolic of Jesus blood....and we all as sinners need this....to think of it makes me so:rant:and then if you try to reason with the members...we are accussed of being apostate....it's maddening for us, and insanity on their part

Fred....I so agree with you about BR , she really has gotten to the heart of how they cut us out of the NC....how grateful I am to her....another victory for us  and its just so , so sad to even think it as a victory when all the brothers and sisters are sitting with their head in a hole in darkness and letting themselves be blinded so when we learn of all the mistakes and teachings that are wrong, it really is bitter sweet....as I think of my brothers and sisters.....oh how I would love for their eyes to be opened...and this is just one thing...they are wrong about so many other things......again BR....thankyou:hug::thumbup::heartbeat:

Hello BR,

God observation about Judas being at the last supper, and the institution of the ritual sacrement.

You are right about Judas being there.

If you are saying that makes Judas part of the New Covenant, that is incorrect. Jesus said that Judas was lost. Mearly eating and drinking at the Lords table does not save one. Not even at the first Memorial. No one was in the New Covenant until pentecost 33, anyway. Jesus said that unless He want away, the Holy Spirit would not come. Jesus wne to heaven to present His sacrifice to the Father. Before that time the New Covenant was not instituted. When He did the H.S. fell on the Christian Congregation, and Judas was not there.

Many people have celebrated the Memorial, only those that are Spirit indwelt are saved, and in the New Covenant.

The separation of the New Covenant and this so called "Kingdom Covenant" is in my mind, a farce. They are the same thing.

BTW Jesus did take ALL of mankinds sins away, but the Bible makes it clear that getting your sins forgiven does not equate with Salvation.

Man has two problems, SIN and DEATH. Getting your sins forgiven(which God did for all mandkind unilaterally, in Christ), does nothing to solve makinds "death " problem.

God is not condemning ANYONE on the basis of their sins, for those have already been forgiven.

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

What God will condemn people for is their refusal to come to Christ.


Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

We are not saved by the death of Christ, but by His life:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

God's answer to our sin problem was the Cross, whereby Jesus did away with all the sins of the world.

God's answer to our spiritual "death" problem was the resurection wherein we recieve the "life of Christ".

Hello everyone ...:hibye::D:giverose: I am sooo glad to be able to discuss this aspect ... to try to search out what it really means about Judas being there and the implications thereof ... you are so sweet flowerchild ... and thanks so much for your kind thoughts about my widow's mite offerings from time to time ... sometimes I guess it is three pieces ...;)

Hey br. iknowhim ... you made a few valid points that I wanted to respond too if I may ...:giverose:

you said ...

Mearly eating and drinking at the Lords table does not save one.

I agree with this ...

IMHO ... the partaking WORTHILY of the New Covenant is out of recognition that ...

We as sinners NEED it
We APPRECIATE and VALUE it
That it enables sinful mankind to be FORGIVEN
It opened a CHANNEL (the real one ... not a 'manmade' one) between us and JEHOVAH GOD that we had LOST after Adam sinned
That we can have a CLEAN CONSCIENCE before our God

While it is true that the New Covenant didn't come into EFFECT until Jesus' presented his offering to Jehovah in person (as a resurrected spirit), IF Judas HADN'T followed through on his wicked desires ... he too could have BENEFITED ... but in essence ... because he DID partake ... KNOWING what he had ALREADY DONE (accepted the money) and what he was PLANNING TO DO ... he partook UNWORTHILY ... and thus what he did could possibly be likened to what is said at 1Cor. 11:27 ...

27 Consequently whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord.

By his mind and heart set during and by his actions after ... sadly seems to fit the bill of eating and drinking UNWORTHILY ... an example that we ALL need to DEEPLY CONSIDER ... BEFORE ... we would consider partaking of the precious symbols of our Lord's perfect and blamless and life-giving sacrifice!

For, a lot, if not most, of JW's tend to think that the 'unworthy' part is that if one of the 'earthly hope' partook it would be 'unworthy' ... for we are not 'qualified' for such ... while some recognize that it is our standing before Jehovah and Christ, whether it is clean or not, whether we have truly asked for forgiveness and have tried to stop following a sinful course or conduct that we may be guilty of ...

1Cor. 11:29 says in regards to this ...

28 First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and thus let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. 29 For he that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment against himself if he does not discern the body.

THAT is WHY recognizing WHO and WHAT we are BEFORE is SO IMPORTANT if we do not want to JUDGED ADVERSELY ... being as CLEAN as we can possibly be as we remember all that our Lord IS ... what he has DONE for us ... what the ransom of his MAKES POSSIBLE for us ... and what he will YET DO ...

Because Judas did NOT recognize the importance of Jesus' body and the real value of his sacrifice ... WHAT did he 'reap' as a result ... WHAT was his JUDGMENT ...

Did he not become known ... even as far off as today ... as the SON OF DESTRUCTION ... :(

John 17:12 ...

12 When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me; and I have kept them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.

You also said ...


The separation of the New Covenant and this so called "Kingdom Covenant" is in my mind, a farce. They are the same thing.

Not so sure I agree with you on that one :huh: ... but that's ok ...;)

Jesus said what everything 'stood' for ... and the Kingdom Covenant had nothing to do with 'forgiveness' ... but rather a special arrangment between him and those who will rule with him in heaven ... not with those who will here on the earth ... IMHO ...;)

You also said ...

BTW Jesus did take ALL of mankinds sins away, but the Bible makes it clear that getting your sins forgiven does not equate with Salvation.

I thought about that for awhile ... and I agree with you TO A POINT ...

Because we are SINNERS ... we WILL sin again and again ... and Jehovah makes clear he will forgive ... again and again ... as long as we continue to repent and ask forgiveness and TRY not to continue on doing so WILLFULLY ...

I say this because of what is mentioned at Heb.10:19-23 ...

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he inaugurated for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with true hearts in the full assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water. 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised.

Yes, the ransom paid by our Lord ... a VERY HIGH PRICE indeed ... has YIELDED much BEAUTIFUL things ... for us as imperfect human beings ... and for our relationship with Christ and his heavenly father ...

However, there IS something that we need to CAUTIOUS of ... not to ABUSE the price our Lord paid for us ... and we CAN do that according to what is mentioned a wee bit further on in verses 26,27 ...

26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.

Yes, Jehovah and Jesus are ALWAYS LOOKING UPON US ... at our CONDUCT ... and what MOTIVATES us ... there is a BIG difference IMHO about the type of 'practice' of 'sin' that is being spoken of here ...

It is the MOTIVATION behind it ...

The Scriptures make clear that the apostle Paul was a PRACTICER of sin and yet his sin continued to be forgiven ... and he received a FAVORABLE JUDGMENT ...

WHY ...

Because he CONTINUED to WORK ON IT ... he didn't LIKE what he was doing ... he didn't use the 'ransom' as a 'get out of jail card' because of it ... and he did it because of his SINFUL NATURE ... not WILFULLY 'just because he 'could' ... again IMHO ...:giverose:

If we read on a wee bit further in verses 29-31 ...

29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

Yes, I think this words are very important to reflect upon ... and take to heart very seriously ...:read:

For in the day of judgment ... we want to be APPROVED ... and NOT CONDEMNED ...

It is by recognizing that we CAN be judged ADVERSELY ... that we stay HUMBLE and CAN TRULY RECOGNIZE the SAVING power of that ransom I think ... :blush: that we DON'T TAKE ADVANTAGE and use the FREENESS we have in CHRIST as an EXCUSE to think we can engage in any kind of loose sinful conduct and NOT suffer the consequences of it ...

Jude 4 seems to me make this clear ...

4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Yes we CAN prove FALSE to our Lord and Owner ... and it would be FOOLISH and UNWISE and SAD ... IMHO ... to think otherwise ...:crybaby: or maybe I'm just not 'getting it' ...?

Judas proved FALSE ... but WE DON'T HAVE TOO!!:D:D

Just some thoughts and feelings ... luv as always BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hello iknowhim....how have you been..

love your saying it's all about us coming to Jesus....

There are so many scriptures which indicate this....one says....we must have Jesus to have the Father and if we don't have the Son....we can't have the Father.

Honor the Son as we honor the Father.....

Kiss the Son , lest the Father becomes incensed....

you search the scriptures yet you refuse to come to me (Jesus)

Of course coming to Jesus is something so foreign to JW....we all know that...and I'm sure you do iknowhim.....Jesus was kept for the 144,000....the concept of coming to know Jesus was replaced with taking in knowledge of him....the concept of having life because Jesus lives through us is greek to JW.....how very sad I am for my brothers and sisters as they are literally starved for Christ.....I know I was.

And for most JW....you will not go into any KH and hear of anyone giving Jesus praise....even in the conversations.....nope...can't give too much to Jesus...much less come to Him.....when Jesus tells us to come to him.....JW do not understand this scripture...I used to think I did....I thought because I was a WTS member I had come to Jesus:crybaby:....you know by listening to the F&DS......:(

Christ Jesus is the Way , the truth and the life.....the only way to the Father.....we must have Jesus.:thumbup::heartbeat:

your friend in Christ