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Jesus said in John 5:24 that by believing, we pass out of death into life.


Jhn 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


My question is this: Which "death" do believers pass out of, the first, or the second?

are you asking about physically or in God's eye's ?:D

I thought the question was pretty simple.

There are only two deaths, the first and second. Which one was Jesus talking about?

Greetings iknowhim

Re: "Which "death" do believers pass out of, the first, or the second?"

Are there only two (kinds of) 'deaths"?

Luke 15:32..."...because this your brother was dead and came to life, and he was lost and was found.’” This describes a 'kind' of death, does it not?

Might this 'death' be the same 'death' Jesus was referring to? ("...he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,...")

Christian love,

gogh

Hello there iknowhim ...:hibye:

I have read a few of your comments since you began 'eating' with us ...:eat: and it is clear that your love for Jehovah and Christ Jesus is VERY STRONG!!

Isn't it wonderful to recognize and feed on the 'deeper things of God'!!:D:love:

This is a wonderful Scripture to show us the outcome that we can have ... everlasting life ... if we believe in Jehovah ... who sent Christ Jesus to us ... and in the saving power of Christ's ransom sacrifice for mankind ...

As LONG AS WE CONTINUE TO BELIEVE ... and as long as we REMAIN FAITHFUL and TRUE to our God and Christ Jesus ... that everlasting future can be ours ...:thumbsup::clap::D

And the FULL realization of that 'everlasting life' ... when we will be written in the 'book of life forever' ... will come to all of those who PASS THE FINAL TEST at the end of thousand years ...!!

Not sure if this answers your question ... but I gave it a shot!;)

Warm Christian love to you ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi gogh

Thanks for the reply.

If we look at where the second death is mentioned it helps. The second death is mentioned at the end of all things, or the climax if you will.

It is there that we learn of a "second" death. It is final. If there were more than two deaths, I'm sure God would have said this means the third death, or sixteenth death. I think the Bible is rather clear that there are but two deaths.

It is appointed for men to die once (physically) and then a judgement.....and then either eternal life, or the second death.

Do you have an answer to my question?

Oh I forgot,:love:

The "death" spoken of here is an analogy. It is not a death in reality. Unless you think Jesus was offering us a relief from an analogy, my question stands.

Hello iknowhim...how are you today....

I think there is a worse kind of death than the physical death we will all experience....and that is to loose our spiritual life we must safeguard it at all costs even if it means death to prove faithful.....we have a spiritual life in Christ...an abundant life.

As far as the 1000 yrs and the second death.....I keep thinking of men like Abraham and Elijah, Elisha....Stephen....Paul....they proved faithful to death, it just doesn't make sense to have to prove faithful all over again....there are so many things the WTS teachs that no longer makes sense to me....but the bottom line is I don't have perfect understanding of the scripture.

Take Care

Hi Bruised reed, I love that name BTW,

I think that if you rest your faith in you ablility to continue believing for salvation, your faith is in you, and your ablility, not Jesus Christ.

Jesus carries me when my faith gives out, for he loves me. He loved me when I had no faith, and when my faith gives out........He brings me back to faith.

BTW Christians bypass any judgement whatsoever according to the Bible. John 5:24 and Romans 8:1,



BECAUSE Jesus took the blame and punishment ment for them, and gives them the eternal life that He deserved. That happens the moment you "believe". Rest in that assurance and the Christian walk will be a blessing.

IMHO. Jn5:24 refers to the second death. The first death is still pressing upon us. We are baptised into Christs death, and that was not a permanent one. Of course, if ever one chooses to die, he will.

Howdy iknowhim

Re: "That happens the moment you "believe"."

Is belief really enough?

James 2:19...

"You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is inactive?"

I understand this scripture often is misquoted/misapplied to reinforce the notion one can by works be 'saved'.

An important aspect, is this, imo,...(Luke 6:32...)

" “And if YOU love those loving YOU, of what credit is it to YOU? For even the sinners love those loving them. And if YOU do good to those doing good to YOU, really of what credit is it to YOU? Even the sinners do the same. Also, if YOU lend [without interest] to those from whom YOU hope to receive, of what credit is it to YOU? Even sinners lend [without interest] to sinners that they may get back as much. To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue becoming merciful, just as YOUR Father is merciful."

Seems to indicate a continuance of 'expressions' of faith in our Master Jesus.

2 Timothy 4:6...

"For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the due time for my releasing is imminent. I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation."

Phillippians 2:12...

"Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that YOU have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is the one that, for the sake of [his] good pleasure, is acting within YOU in order for YOU both to will and to act. Keep doing all things free from murmurings and arguments, that YOU may come to be blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation, among whom YOU are shining as illuminators in the world, keeping a tight grip on the word of life, that I may have cause for exultation in Christ’s day, that I did not run in vain or work hard in vain. Notwithstanding, even if I am being poured out like a drink offering upon the sacrifice and public service to which faith has led YOU, I am glad and I rejoice with all of YOU. Now in the same way YOU yourselves also be glad and rejoice with me."


Christian love,

gogh

I agree with e-magine that it is talking about the second death.

I believe the Bible says there are two kinds of death:

1) the first death=literal death
2) the second death=spiritual death

Jesus here is talking about the second kind. I like the way flowerchild describes it: "I think there is a worse kind of death than the physical death we will all experience....and that is a to lose our spiritual life. We must safeguard it at all costs even if it means death to prove faithful."

We are able, by the way, to escape from either kind of death. The second death is not final or permanent.

I keep thinking of the scripture of Jesus saying not one who his Father gave him would he let be snatched from his hand....he said he did not loose even one....it just seems there is something more to us proving faithful by and in our own strength....I don't think its anything any of us can do...but Jesus supplies what we need as long as we believe in him and put faith in him...and what we can't do in our own strength....and just by virtue of being born a sinner....Jesus covered that with his own death...and we are safe in him and he comes into us....many spiritual things I never could grasp before....as we as JW were always focused on endless amounts of knowledge which can not make up for the Spirit leading us into all truth.....a truth which surpasses all knowledge.

Howdy Donbodo

Re: "The second death is not final or permanent."

This statement is made as fact. Why do you state/teach this?

Revelation 20:10...

"And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Is not a 'state' of being "tormented day and night forever and ever", a condition of complete destruction/annihilation? (Pardon me for having such a wild imagination...grin).(Dear me, how could I (and possibly others) have come up with such a preposterous notion...not grinning...) In which case, the second death would be permanent...correct?

Christian love,

gogh

Hello again iknowhim ... and thank you so much for your comment to me ... yeah I may be 'bruised' ... but I'm still kickin' ...;):whistle:

you said ...

BTW Christians bypass any judgement whatsoever according to the Bible. John 5:24 and Romans 8:1,


If I may make an observation or two ...:giverose:

First of all ... I am quite sure you will agree that the apostle Paul would be considered a CHRISTIAN ... as he was after the foremost apostle of the nations ...

And yet, HOW did he view his 'salvation' ...? Did he think because he was 'chosen by Christ Jesus himself' ... that he was 'forgiven' ... that his 'conscience was now able to be cleansed' ... that he had a 'free ticket' so to speak ... that he once as the expression goes ... 'once saved ALWAYS saved ...?

Well consider what Paul said himself in 1Co 9:27 ... (since I am not sure which Bible you use I thought I'd list a few various translations ...:read:)

(KJV) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

(ASV) but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

(CEV) I keep my body under control and make it my slave, so I won't lose out after telling the good news to others.

(EMTV) But I treat my body roughly, and I bring it into subjection, lest, having preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

(MKJV) But I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be rejected.

Here we see the HUMILITY and the UTMOST CONFIDENCE he had in the saving value of the RANSOM of Christ Jesus ...

Paul was DILIGENT in his spreading this good news to as many people as he was able ... and he LOVED all of whom he spoke with as can be seen from various others scriptures ... even those whom he had 'words' with at times ...;)

And YET ... he was AWARE ... that if he didn't WATCH HOW HE WALKED as a footstep follower of Christ ... he COULD if he FAILED TO CONTINUING walking ... that is ENDURING TO THE END ... he would be 'rejected' ... 'disqualified' ... 'lose out' ... 'cast away' ... from the reward of which he so wanted to attain ...

This is in harmony with Christ Jesus' own words at Matt. 10:22 ...

(KJV) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

(CEV) Everyone will hate you because of me. But if you remain faithful until the end, you will be saved.

(DRB) And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

(GNB) Everyone will hate you because of me. But whoever holds out to the end will be saved.

Is this FAIR you may wonder ...? What if someone were to live a good life for several years and then throw in the towel ... or begin to live by the 'flesh' and not the 'spirit' ...?

Well, would it be fair to someone who DID live faithful to the END ... to have someone who is NOT living a clean Godly life (imperfection accounted for ... but not deliberately sinning thinking that 'I'm saved') to the 'end' ... have the SAME outcome?

Jesus' EXAMPLE is set before us ... and lived TO THE END OF LIFE a Godly life ... and is it not HIS EXAMPLE that we are to follow ...?

You also mentioned those two Scriptures ...

John 5:24 ...

24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.

I have no problem with this scripture at all ... as long as we CONTINUE TO BELIEVE ... to the END ... that LIFE is indeed within our grasp ... to think otherwise would mean that we do not trust in the promises of our God Jehovah ...

You also mentioned Romans 8:1 ...

8 Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation.

When I did some comparison Scriptures with this verse ... I found some other translations had a wee bit more to say ... for instance ...

(Bishops) There is then no dampnation to them which are in Christe Iesu, which walke not after the fleshe, but after the spirite.

(DRB) There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.


(Geneva) Now then there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Iesus, which walke not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(GNB) There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus.

(KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I also have no problem with this verse either ...:D

For if we are 'IN CHRIST JESUS' ... or 'WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT' ... or are 'IN UNION WITH CHRIST' ... then ... HOW could we be 'condemned' ...? Are we not LIVING a life then that we strive to 'walk as Christ Jesus walked ...?

The KEY to BOTH of these Scriptures IMHO ... is that it is a CONTINUOUS THING that we must LIVE SEVEN DAYS A WEEK 24 HOURS OF EACH AND EVERY DAY ... not just 'some of the time' ... or 'when we feel like it' ... 'before open doors' ... or think well ... Jesus died for me ... I believe that ... and so I can do as I please for his ransom covers me after all ... I AM a 'sinner' aren't I ...

What does the BIBLE say about any kind of this type of thinking or reasoning ... is it specious and self-deluding ... or should we reject such reasoning for ourselves ...?

What does Heb. 10:26 warn us about ...

26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

(ALT) For [if] we [are] deliberately sinning after the receiving [of] the full [or, true] knowledge of the truth [there] no longer remains a sacrifice concerning sins,

(BBE) For if we do evil on purpose after we have had the knowledge of what is true, there is no more offering for sins,

(GNB) For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us.

(ISV) For if we choose to go on sinning after we have received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

So, my dear brother ... (I'm assuming you are a 'male' ... if not then 'sister');) the Scriptures read in context ... in light of others Scriptural support would seem to tell us that ...

Yes we DO have forgiveness for our sins ... and this 'forgiveness' or 'being in a saved condition' ... can be a PERMANENT thing as long as WE DO OUR PART ...

Never would we want to use the ransom of our Lord and Savior as an 'excuse' ... or a 'get out of jail card' ... to continue to do wrong ... for would that perhaps not be 'grieving the holy spirit' ...?:crybaby:

I'm not sure if we are on the same wave length or not ... but how do you feel about what I said ...?:giverose:

Lots of Christian love to you and yours ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts: