Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Full Version: Allegorical Interpretation of the Bible
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
I wanted to say a few words about biblical interpretation. We should think somewhat about method. How exactly do we figure out what the Bible means in one passage or another? Surely there are correct ways of interpreting the Bible and incorrect ways.

One popular way of interpreting scripture is the allegorical method.

An allegory is a symbolic representation of one thing by another. Normally this method takes texts, discards their plain and literal meaning, and then makes the words only symbols of what was originally stated.

There is actually New Testament precedent for such an approach. The apostles sometimes took certain physical people, places, things or events of an earlier time and gave them an ultimate spiritual application in the present or future. For example, the Old Testament high priest Aaron was an allegory, or symbol, of our spiritual high priest Jesus Christ (Hebrews 5:4-5).

Some people have felt that because the apostles used this method, at times, that we too are free to engage in this sort of speculative enterprise. Setting aside, for the moment, the question of whether only the inspired writers of the Bible were free to engage in this sort of interpretation or whether God left it up to us to impart whatever meaning we so desire into a text, I wish to address first the question of whether the allegorical method actually leads us to the original meaning of the text.

You know, just because Aaron is a symbol of Jesus Christ, this does not mean that Aaron actually was Jesus Christ. And just because Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac is a symbol of God giving up his only-begotten son, this does not mean that Abraham actually was God and that Isaac actually was Jesus.

So the allegorical method does not lead us to the original meaning of the text. It only gives us an additional, spiritual meaning, a meaning that was not there to begin with.

Because of its nature, the allegorical method leaves all authority in the hands of the interpreter. He or she has no one to check the interpretation and see if it is right or wrong. Every person trying to interpret the text will come away with his own interpretation, and it can't be proven correct or incorrect.

Some believe that by using cross-references, i.e., finding other spots in the Bible where a word or phrase is used symbolically, one receives the authority to interpret a passage in a symbolic or figurative way. However, since most words and phrases are used both symbolically and literally in the Bible, the interpreter is still giving himself the authority to determine that the words or phrases in a given passage are symbolic and not literal.

The allegorical method turns much of the Bible into parables, i.e., fiction (at least from a historical point of view), because none of the words have meaning as they are read, or as they were recorded. The interpreter makes the words means different things than what they actually say.

Most people that are allegorists do not use a completely allegorical approach. They take things in their easy literal sense until it is too hard to understand, to hard to believe, or doesn't fit their thinking, and then they shift to the allegorical.

Oswald T. Allis (in PROPHECY AND THE CHURCH) suggests that the term "spiritual interpretation" is better than allegorical and argues for a combination of the allegorical and literal approach.

These are the rules he sets forth:

1. "Whether you should interpret a passage figuratively or literally depends solely on which gives the true meaning."

Um...how do we know what the true meaning is until we find out how to interpret the text? He seems to be assuming we know the true meaning before we start.

2. "The only way prophecy can be understood literally is when its literal meaning is clear and obvious."

I don't know about this one. Did the first century Jews think the prophecies about the Messiah were clear and obvious?

3. "The interpretation of any prophecy hinges on the fulfilment of it."

So we don't know how to interpret a prophecy until it's over?

Hmm. I wonder what I would do if my own kids decided to interpret my house rules as allegorical.

As you can see, I am skeptical of the allegorical method. If one uses it to get a personal meaning out of scripture, while realizing that it is not the original meaning, then fine. More power to him.

But let's talk about a better method of interpretation. Instead of superimposing a meaning on it, an objective interpreter should try to discover the writer's intended meaning (which is really the only true meaning).

What a passage means is fixed by the author and is not subject to alteration by readers. In other words, meaning is determined by the author, and it is discovered by readers. Our goal must be exegesis (drawing the meaning out of the text) and not eisogesis (superimposing a meaning onto the text). Our method of interpreting scripture is valid or invalid to the extent that it really unfolds the meaning that a statement had for the writer and the first hearers or readers.

So the first thing to do is look at context. And by context, I don't mean the whole Bible. I don't mean look first in Jude to find out what Exodus means. Every word in the Bible is part of a verse, and every verse is part of a paragraph, and every paragraph is part of a book, and every book is part of the whole Bible. You can't divorce a verse from the verses around it.

Now, yes, there is both an immediate context and a broader context. The immediate context of a verse is the paragraph (or paragraphs) of the biblical book in question. The immediate context should always be consulted first in interpreting Bible verses. The broader context is the whole Bible. But the farther away one gets from the immediate context, the weaker the evidence for the interpretation. Thus, if I find the answer to a question of interpretation in the same book, my case is stronger than if I find it in a different book. And if I am interpreting a passage from the New Testament, my case is stronger if I find my evidence in the New Testament than if I find it in the Old. The closer I am in context, the better.

Why do I say this? Because the inspired writers of scripture cannot be taken out of their cultural and historical context. If we want to find out what they meant, when they said it, we should go to them first, and to their closes associates second, and to people of their own generation third, and to their own people of a different generation fourth.

Historical considerations are especially important in properly interpreting the Bible. The Christian faith is based on something that happened in history. These events are recorded for us in the New Testament Gospels, documents that are based on eyewitness testimony and written very close in time to the events about which they report. So when interpreting biblical passages, we must take into consideration the time it was written and the other aspects of historical context.

We also have to recognize that the Bible contains a variety of literary genres, each of which has certain peculiar characteristics that must be recognized in order to interpret the text properly.

Biblical genres include the historical (e.g., Acts), the dramatic epic (e.g., Job), poetry (e.g., Psalms), wise sayings (e.g., Proverbs), and apocalyptic writings (e.g., Revelation).

An incorrect genre judgment will lead one astray in interpreting scripture. A parable should not be treated as history, nor should poetry or apocalyptic literature (both of which contain many symbols) be treated as straightforward narrative. A wise interpreter allows his knowledge of genres to control how he approaches each individual biblical text. In this way, he can accurately determine what the biblical writer was intending to communicate to the reader.

Now, even though the Bible contains a variety of literary genres and many figures of speech, the biblical authors most often employed literal statements to convey their ideas. Thus, when not dealing with poetry or apocalyptic writing, it is best to interpret the texts literally. What do I mean by "literally"? A literal method of interpreting scripture gives to each word in the text the same basic meaning it would have in normal, ordinary, customary usage.

Now, someone could argue that, with God's holy spirit, we don't need to rely on any method, because he will reveal the meaning to us, regardless.

Yes, it is true that scripture tells us that we are to rely on the holy spirit's illumination to gain insights into the meaning and application of scripture (John 16:12-15; 1 Corinthians 2:9-11). No doubt about that. But is it really so that we do not need to do anything, to employ no method whatsoever in order to understand? Are we to let God do all the work?

Hardly. Proverbs 2 tells us that we are to put a great deal of work into gaining wisdom, and it isn't only through prayer. Thus it is necessary to employ good and proper methods of interpretation on the Bible in order to understand it. And the spirit will help us the rest of the way.

Just because the holy spirit lightens our path does not mean interpreters can ignore common sense and logic. Since the spirit is called "the spirit of truth" (John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13), it will not teach concepts that fail to meet the tests of truth. And the literal method of interpretation is itself a test of truth. Illumination on rational issues comes into the minds of God's people, not to non-rational faculties like our emotions or our feelings. While the emotions are an important part of Christianity, and the Bible is intended to reach our hearts, our understanding it is a rational endeavor.

So, while allegorical interpretation does have legitimate usage, it has nothing to do with the original meaning of the text. I should also mention that its self-centered approach actually originated with the pagan mystics, and then adopted by some Jewish and Christian philosophers. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th Edition:

"Allegorical interpretation is a hermeneutical (interpretive) method used to uncover hidden or symbolic meanings of a Biblical text. Rooted in the techniques developed by Greek thinkers who attempted to overcome the problems posed by literal interpretations of ancient Greek myths, the allegorical method was further developed by Jewish scholars, such as Philo of Alexandria in the 1st century AD, and Christian thinkers, such as Clement and Origen of Alexandria in the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD. Though other methods were often used, the allegorical method was dominant until late medieval times. The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century rejected, for the most part, the allegorical method and returned to the more literal interpretation of the Bible."

"The allegorical method attempts to overcome the difficulties of morally perplexing Biblical passages and to harmonize them with certain traditions and accepted teachings of the synagogue or church. By assigning to each feature of a text a hidden, symbolic, or mystical meaning beyond the primary meaning that the words convey in their literal sense, the allegorical interpretation seeks to make the text more comprehensible, acceptable, and relevant to the present."

:clap: Hi Donbodo!! :clap:




Thanks for the article matey!! I like your writing style! I would consider myself to be somewhat of an allegoric, but, not too hardcore! Mainly Ive come to read the Bible as being a gift from the God of the Universe -- and as such, the Bible is Jahs Thoughts, told to us, through human context and understanding. It shows His Thoughts through prose and events that took place in actual history and also the outworking of His Intentions to rectify the sentient situation.

I also read the scriptures in terms of the underlying dynamics of Life Force Energy flow -- as I believe all dynamics did not just come about after the writing of the Bible -- but they are more like sacred secrets - Universal Law, and the dynamics of the Law -- they have always been around.

With this in mind, I have not been a student of the Bible for very long, and do not consider myself to be an expert (I still havent even read over half the OT yet! Hehehe!!) -- and am very comfortable with that! All in all, thank you for your article (all your articles!) as you point out a lot of ways that interpretation can become so AWAL that it ends up being subjective truth. May JAH bless you!




May LOVE be with you!

your bro -- beau! :friends::friends::friends:
Hello dear old friend Don!!

You said

' some think ....that we too are free to engage in this sort of speculative enterprise'

YES Don, we are FREE in engage in any kind of thoughts and ideas and feelings we might have in our trying to grow spiritually and gain a greater sense of understanding of God!!!!!!

Your a teacher yes?? Is it not true the more senses used in learning the better??

If the bible is alive what can that mean?

Do we as living people have the same relationship with every person we meet?

No that's why so many people understand the bible differently. It's not about perfect doctrine it's about growth in faith and love and trust For God.

I no longer believe the bible is like a math problem that we can just use our logic and add up the answers.

Man the stuff you say sometimes!!

"It only gives us an additional, spiritual meaning, a meaning that was not there to begin with."

A MEANING THAT WAS NOT THERE TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!!!!

I'm just about bouncing on my head right now!!!

You also said

"I should also mention that its self-centered approach actually originated with the pagan mystics"

The bible was BEFORE pagan mystics even got started! Perhaps they are were trying to copy the scriptures!!!!

Don if your faith grows and is built on the beautiful logic of the bible that's because God wrote it with logic so people like you could have your faith built up, BUT it is ALSO written for other people who have thier faith built up in a different way....

You see math,       I see art and hear music,

I see picture upon picture, patterns upon patterns, for me the pictures and patterns of the bible are like a language, or even more like a beautiful song painting a picture for me, showing me and singing to me about the wonderful glory of Gods plan.

Here is how I'm seeing you Don....:readthis: "One way only one way to understand this book!



Digging ;)

digging Wrote:
YES Don, we are FREE in engage in any kind of thoughts and ideas and feelings we might have in our trying to grow spiritually and gain a greater sense of understanding of God!!!!!!


If you look at what I wrote again, you will see that I do not say that the allegorical or spiritual approach is never to be used.

I Wrote:
If one uses it to get a personal meaning out of scripture, while realizing that it is not the original meaning, then fine. More power to him.


My comment was only that the allegorical approach does not usually bring us to the writer's intended meaning. It can give it personal meaning for us. And this is what makes the Bible great. It's a very rich text.

digging Wrote:
It's not about perfect doctrine it's about growth in faith and love and trust For God.


Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that we need to arrive at perfect understanding. Not at all. I don't even know if that's possible. What I am saying is that the allegorical approach will not give us the original meaning of the Bible. It will only give us an added meaning. Why? Because it takes words out of context and makes them mean things that they don't usually mean.

Quote:
The bible was BEFORE pagan mystics even got started! Perhaps they are were trying to copy the scriptures!!!!


The Bible was not before pagan mystics. But that isn't what I was saying. I was saying that the allegorical interpretation of the Bible did not come into vogue until later, and it was promoted by those influenced by pagan mysticism.

Hi Don, Good intel! :ok:
what makes the Bible so personal, is that it can be read literally, or intuitively, "a solacal man cannot see things pneumatically, they are a mystery to him". :dontknow:
That's why, to me, debating the "truths" in the B. can become banal, and cause divisions and religions.

"religion is a snare and a racket"

The Spirit (Holy) will teach us all things.
The WTS prides itself in its literal NWT bible, and literal approach to translating. In fact, they do no such thing. They freely add allegorical or symbolic meaning to a text, and then denigrate any who disagree. :readthis: :read:yea sure:coffeeread:
Hi Digit! :happyheart:
You said about Don..."You see math, I see art and hear music"
I'm not sure, I think Don sees and hears things he hasn't told us about yet :thumbsup:. it's all good!
For me, turn up the music!.......e-m:whistle:
Well perhaps I've over reacted a bit.....

:listenmusic:

I want to say I very much believe in balance even with logic and  allegorical ideas.

But I still take issue with some of the things you have said Don.
For example you said,

"The apostles sometimes took certain physical people, places, things or events of an earlier time and gave them an ultimate spiritual application in the present or future."

There was one other great teacher of the NT that taught with allegorical ways....Jesus Christ!

Something else you said

"You know, just because Aaron is a symbol of Jesus Christ, this does not mean that Aaron actually was Jesus Christ. And just because Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac is a symbol of God giving up his only-begotten son, this does not mean that Abraham actually was God and that Isaac actually was Jesus."

If I look at this story and see the allegorical pattern pointing to Jesus I never think Abraham WAS God, or Isaac WAS Jesus!!!!
That's not what allegorical means to me at all, maybe your just talking about extremes??? I'm not sure??

When looking at the story you can further see the pattern reach past Isaac to the ram caught in the thorn bush that was the sacrifice provided by YHWH and see this also as a shadow to the Christ.

I guess the one MAIN problem I have is with this statement of yours

"But let's talk about a *BETTER* method of interpretation. Instead of superimposing a meaning on it, an objective interpreter should try to discover the writer's intended meaning (which is really the only true meaning)."

Which is really the ONLY true meaning??????

Let's go back to Isaac and all the other allergorical stories of the OT that YHWH created to help the Jews reconize the Christ when he arrived. What was the purpose of Abraham and Isaac doing what they did that God even involved the angels to help control the out come?
Perhaps he was creating an allegorical story for the Jews to help them reconize the Christ??

Now a little more with Jesus style of teaching, is the kingdom a seed? A fish net? A pearl? A virgin? If allergorical thinking is almost 'spiritually dangerous' as you seem to be hinting why would Jesus encouage it and use it so much in teaching those seeking the Kingdom?? Are you saying Jesus was a pagan mystic??

Digging

digging Wrote:
There was one other great teacher of the NT that taught with allegorical ways....Jesus Christ!


He definitely used metaphors and similes. Did he interpret the Hebrew Scriptures allegorically? He may have. I have to think about that one.

Quote:
If I look at this story and see the allegorical pattern pointing to Jesus I never think Abraham WAS God, or Isaac WAS Jesus!!!!
That's not what allegorical means to me at all, maybe your just talking about extremes??? I'm not sure??


My comments were not all about you, Digging. Others here have made comments that there is no literal interpretation of some scriptures at all, that the allegorical is the only interpretation. For example, that the trees in Eden were not trees, but that they symbolize something else. In other words, the symbolic application is the only true one.

Others have said that the snake in Genesis, because it is allegorically interpreted to represent Satan in Revelation 12, was not a real snake. In other words, the allegory is the only true understanding. I ask you, if Aaron can still be Aaron and represent Jesus, why can't the snake still be a snake and represent Satan? Jesus is the greater Aaron. Satan is the greater serpent.

Quote:
I guess the one MAIN problem I have is with this statement of yours

"But let's talk about a *BETTER* method of interpretation. Instead of superimposing a meaning on it, an objective interpreter should try to discover the writer's intended meaning (which is really the only true meaning)."

Which is really the ONLY true meaning??????


When I say "true," I mean objectively true. I mean the actual meaning of the text. To be sure, the allegorical meanings put onto texts by the apostles we can also take as true (though not as the original meaning), because they are the inspired writers of the Bible. But we cannot take the meaning we ourselves put into it as true. Our own allegorical meanings are subjective. They may provide some spiritual benefit to us, but they are not objectively true. Whatever meaning I get out of it may be true for me, but it is not necessarily true for anyone else.

Thank-you very much for explaining yourself in more detail!

I know you were not only speaking to me Don, I understand that.

Let's talk about one point you made.

"Others here have made comments that there is no literal interpretation of some scriptures at all, that the allegorical is the only interpretation."

Perhaps we have not fully understand what they are trying to say? Perhaps they are saying the allegorical part of the passage is the part that has the truly spiritual benefit?

Between these two camps there is an interesting problem. Each has a hard time 'seeing' how the other sees.

For myself I look for the patterns in the phycial stories to help explain the spiritual. Why do I do this? Because Jesus taught this way, he always used phyical thing as examples of the spiritual things.

Thus I see Adam and Eve and the whole garden event as a living illustration created by God to teach us about our spiritual relationship with him.

Did Jesus use allergorical teaching? Well the vs in John 3:8-10 with Nicodemus.

Then the account of him saying he was the 'manna' that comes down for heaven.

He said Elijah was the allegorical type for John the Baptist.

The whole passover lamb he replaced with the symbols of his flesh and blood.

Really when we are talking about allegoricals are we not talking about illustrations?? If that is so then Jesus used two kinds, one was with the real phyical object in hand, like the bread and wine, the other was to tell a story about real things, but with the purpose of connecting a spiritual meaning to the illustration, just like he did with the bread and wine.
Interesting the two go hand in hand! The illustration is nothing on it's own but a plain story and the spiritual has no object to explain itself through without the illustration, BUT together much can be taught and learned.

So I guess we need to work together??

Peace
Digging

digging Wrote:
Perhaps they are saying the allegorical part of the passage is the part that has the truly spiritual benefit?


Well, yes. And that is what I disagree with. I think we derive more spiritual benefit when we try to understand what Gods' message is, rather than transform his message into our own message.

You see, this is the problem with allegorical interpretation. We are free to make Bible passages mean almost whatever we want. Using that method, I could make up all kinds of things. Why, we only have to look at the WTS to see that! They see prophetic patterns in the Bible that confirm that they are God's chosen people!

Quote:
For myself I look for the patterns in the phycial stories to help explain the spiritual. Why do I do this? Because Jesus taught this way, he always used phyical thing as examples of the spiritual things.

Really when we are talking about allegoricals are we not talking about illustrations?? If that is so then Jesus used two kinds, one was with the real phyical object in hand, like the bread and wine, the other was to tell a story about real things, but with the purpose of connecting a spiritual meaning to the illustration, just like he did with the bread and wine.

Interesting the two go hand in hand! The illustration is nothing on it's own but a plain story and the spiritual has no object to explain itself through without the illustration, BUT together much can be taught and learned.


I think you are confusing two different things here:

1) Someone making up his own parable to illustrate a point.

2) Taking someone else's story and using it to illustrate a point (regardless of the original writer's intention).

I am talking about #2. Here is my main claim: A person cannot take someone else's story and make it mean whatever he wants it to mean. He must first figure out what the author was trying to say with that story. Only then can he figure out what the story teaches.

I guess we could illustrate it this way. Let's say someone took one of Jesus' parables out of context and without Jesus' explanation of it, and then this person made the parable mean whatever he wanted? He claimed each character in the parable symbolized...well, whatever. Is this form of biblical interpretation that which has the most spiritual benefit? I say no. I say we get the most spiritual benefit when we actually try to figure out what the writer means first. If the author had some spiritual lesson that he wanted to teach, we could then see it. But we can't see it without taking into consideration original intent.

Yes it can be a pickle,

I think it's important to never be afraid of looking at anything differently in the bible. To have faith it's important to trust God and in his help and spirit to support us.

You said "I think we derive more spiritual benefit when we try to understand what Gods' message is, rather than transform his message into our own message."

Well Don I just don't think that works 100% of the time with the bible.
Remember what it said of Jesus, he would NOT teach them without illustrations! Then he would not even explain them!
Not all of his illustration have even been explained later by the apostles for us. All we have recorded IS the illustration. For example

Luke 6:39 Then Jesus gave the following illustration: "What good is it for one blind person to lead another? The first one will fall into a ditch and pull the other down also.

40 A student is not greater than the teacher. But the student who works hard will become like the teacher.

Where is the spiritual benefit from understand the plain meaning of theses vs's?

The NT clearly explains that all of Jesus illustration had spiritual meaning, but often he left that part up to the hearer to 'get the sense of it for themselves' that's kind of opposite to what you have said??

How does my allergorical thinking help me here? We all are born blind as hinted at in Rev 3:17 thus if we follow another man we will fall, Jesus is the only one whom can see so as to lead us.
Vs 40 Whom do we want to be like?? If we let a man be our teacher we will never be greater than he, we want to be like Christ, Then we must chose him alone as our teacher. (I see the spiritual benefit of these vs's leading me to follow Christ, I'm sure there are other ways someone can see this as spiritually encouraging.)

So far I have never met anyone on a personal level who was 'transforming Gods message into thier own message.' But Yes I've seen religions do it, but mainly when they try to replace the Christ with themselves. That's why I said I don't believe it's ever wrong to see the Christ allergorically in a postive way in the bible. The more we see him there the harder it is for someone else to slip in!

That all being said yes we could take allergore to far, how so? By separating it from the basic repeating pattern of Gods plan of salvation through Christ.

I just thought of an 'illustration' ;)

Take reading, we are looking at black and white print and yet we can begin to see a colored picture of the events in our mind. The words are really only symbols for something else. Well the whole bible also has a patterned story of events like words and these 'story/words' paint a greater picture.

Maybe what I think allergore is differs from your meaning?

Digging

digging Wrote:
Well Don I just don't think that works 100% of the time with the bible.
Remember what it said of Jesus, he would NOT teach them without illustrations! Then he would not even explain them!


It certainly can be a challenge to figure some of them out (not as many as you might think). But when we do, the question is: Do we try to figure out what Jesus meant, or do we make it mean whatever suits us?

Those two examples you gave, by the way, are not that hard to figure out. The second one isn't even a parable or illustration. The first one is pretty self-explanatory, don't you think?

Quote:
That all being said yes we could take allergore to far, how so? By separating it from the basic repeating pattern of Gods plan of salvation through Christ.


I agree with you that there is no harm if we make our allegories about Christ and salvation through him. But I still have to emphasize the fact that this was not necessarily in the minds of the writer or of God when some of these accounts were written. Most of the time, the accounts are just straightforward narratives without having anything to do with Christ. Just because we can make them into something greater doesn't mean that is what they were written for.

So, for example, let's take the story of David and Goliath. I think the "moral" of the story is how one should stick up for God and what is right (David setting the example). This purpose of the story becomes apparent when trying to understand it from the writer's point of view. However, I can make it mean something even greater, if I want to. I can make David = Christ and Goliath = Satan. And then I can make it about Christ's overthrow of Satan. That's all fine and great, but I doubt that the writer or God had that in mind when it was written.

Personally, I think it is a little presumptuous of us to think that stories with morals are just simply not good enough for us. We need to make it bigger and better. It's got to be about huge universal issues for us to respect it.

donbodo Wrote:

digging Wrote:
Well Don I just don't think that works 100% of the time with the bible.
Remember what it said of Jesus, he would NOT teach them without illustrations! Then he would not even explain them!


It certainly can be a challenge to figure some of them out (not as many as you might think). But when we do, the question is: Do we try to figure out what Jesus meant, or do we make it mean whatever suits us?

Those two examples you gave, by the way, are not that hard to figure out. The second one isn't even a parable or illustration. The first one is pretty self-explanatory, don't you think?

Quote:
That all being said yes we could take allergore to far, how so? By separating it from the basic repeating pattern of Gods plan of salvation through Christ.


I agree with you that there is no harm if we make our allegories about Christ and salvation through him. But I still have to emphasize the fact that this was not necessarily in the minds of the writer or of God when some of these accounts were written. Most of the time, the accounts are just straightforward narratives without having anything to do with Christ. Just because we can make them into something greater doesn't mean that is what they were written for.

So, for example, let's take the story of David and Goliath. I think the "moral" of the story is how one should stick up for God and what is right (David setting the example). This purpose of the story becomes apparent when trying to understand it from the writer's point of view. However, I can make it mean something even greater, if I want to. I can make David = Christ and Goliath = Satan. And then I can make it about Christ's overthrow of Satan. That's all fine and great, but I doubt that the writer or God had that in mind when it was written.

Personally, I think it is a little presumptuous of us to think that stories with morals are just simply not good enough for us. We need to make it bigger and better. It's got to be about huge universal issues for us to respect it.


.... about the highlighted portion above ....

My friend   in this   I feel you greatly err ...

The books of the bible are specifically about the Lord and our Savior ..
and every little jot and title are relevant ... these stories as you call them explain Him in numerous beautiful ways ... and this is were the mind of God comes into play.

By stating that you feel that most of these stories have nothing to do with the Christ ( our salvation ) you are discrediting Him and making the word of GOD nothing more that a story book rendition.

Jesus Himself plainly stated that all things written speak about Him and this includes every single book contained in the bible.


Luke 24

27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

32 They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?"

44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.
( all of the books )

45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
( what do you believe what this openning of the minds ment ) since you think that all of these renditions are just literal stories for moral values .

49 "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."
( this is speaking of the Holy Spirit that will make plain all things or give them understanding and insights into His words )

You said ... But I still have to emphasize the fact that this was not necessarily in the minds of the writer or of God when some of these accounts were written.

Well, apparently Jesus understood these accounts and what they were trying to convey ... and Jesus specifically stated that these things were not given for all to know but only to those chosen who would receive this Holy Spirit.

Prophets were inspired to write the words of GOD .. a spirit was speaking in spiritual terms and leading them into all things ... and these prophets in turn explained these words to leaders and mankind in various ways using symbols and metaphorical speach that was sometimes made plain to prophets (as revealed with Daniel ) but most individuals were not priviledged to get the real meaning of things.

To say that anyone can make the scriptures say anything they want to might be correct ....

but ... the difference in each story told comes when all things relate back to Christ and His purpose ... if we see ( understand ) scriptures in new deeper ways and these in turn agree with the overall picture of GODs plan for mankind right from the start, then this is not preaching or teaching another truth or gospel .. it is a gift of the Holy Spirit in revealing the plain and simple truth ...the things that have been hidden in these stories right from the beginning are now leading us to see the greater picture and proving once more how High and unknowing GODs thoughts really are .... it strengthens our faith even more and our appreciation grows even stronger to know and understand this ....

The days will come and it is now .. that GODs Holy Spirit will open the eyes and ears of those deaf and blind to spiritual things .... and all things will be brought forth out into the open for all to see.

With much affection always ... LC :giverose:

Oh my!:fear: This topic smells like a trap! I think I'll pass on your invite Donbodo, except for this one comment.

Quote:
Some believe that by using cross-references, i.e., finding other spots in the Bible where a word or phrase is used symbolically, one receives the authority to interpret a passage in a symbolic or figurative way. However, since most words and phrases are used both symbolically and literally in the Bible, the interpreter is still giving himself the authority to determine that the words or phrases in a given passage are symbolic and not literal.


That's why the 'whole' Bible has to taken into consideration. For those who lived prior to it's completion/fulfillment about the Christ.....We can't assume they knew what the fulfillment would be. We now have the completed history of the nation of Israel in biblical times. If you think about it...God hasn't spoken to man literally for nearly 2000 years. Why is that, Donbodo?

I will agree there are times a passage is meant literal and there are times it is meant figuratively/symbolically. The context of said passage should help with how it is interpreted. Also, many prophecies had a deeper, greater, and or spiritual fulfillment than the literal one.

Illistration: Think about the 'veil' that was erected in the tabernacle/temple. Why was there a veil? And, why was Jesus the only one who could remove it?

Dear Aurora,

You say:

Aurora Wrote:
The books of the bible are specifically about the Lord and our Savior ..
and every little jot and title are relevant ... these stories as you call them explain Him in numerous beautiful ways ... and this is were the mind of God comes into play.


While I agree that the Bible culminates in the appearance of our Lord and Savior and that several passages in the Hebrew Scriptures point to him, I do not agree that every little jot and tittle are about Christ. The Bible says no such thing (see below).

When Jesus says that he came to fulfill every little jot and tittle of the law (Matt. 5:17-20), he meant following its commandments. The context clearly shows that.

Quote:
By stating that you feel that most of these stories have nothing to do with the Christ ( our salvation ) you are discrediting Him and making the word of GOD nothing more that a story book rendition.


This statement is incorrect (and offensive) on many levels. First of all, to "discredit" means to dispute the authority of someone. I do not dispute the authority of Christ at all. I listen to everything he tells me to do. Second, just because YOU say that a scripture is about him, and I don't believe it, doesn't mean I am denying any of HIS authority. It only means I am denying YOUR authority. HE didn't tell me that the scripture was about him, and neither did the apostles. Only you did. Third, you seem to be assuming that anything that is not about Christ is nothing more than a story. Please. Does that even make sense?

Quote:
Jesus Himself plainly stated that all things written speak about Him and this includes every single book contained in the bible.[/color]

Luke 24

27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

32 They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?"

44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.
( all of the books )


You are misreading what is stated here. Notice the phrase "all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms." It doesn't say "all things in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms are written about me." You are changing the meaning. Verse 27 tells us that he went through all the scriptures in order to show his followers the parts that were about him, and then to explain them. It doesn't say that all of the scriptures were about him. I mean, think for a moment. If every verse of the Bible was about him, then how could he explain each and every verse to them in one stroll? It would have taken months! So this passage cannot possibly mean that he did such a thing,

Here's a couple of verses for you. Could you please tell me how they apply to Christ?

15 These are the sheiks of the sons of E´sau: The sons of El´i·phaz, E´sau’s firstborn: Sheik Te´man, sheik O´mar, sheik Ze´pho, sheik Ke´naz, 16 sheik Ko´rah, sheik Ga´tam, sheik Am´a·lek. These are the sheiks of El´i·phaz in the land of E´dom. These are the sons by A´dah. (Gen 36:15)

1 In the twenty-third year of Je·ho´ash the son of A·ha·zi´ah the king of Judah, Je·ho´a·haz the son of Je´hu became king over Israel in Sa·mar´i·a for seventeen years. (2 Kings 13:1)

Quote:
Well, apparently Jesus understood these accounts and what they were trying to convey ... and Jesus specifically stated that these things were not given for all to know but only to those chosen who would receive this Holy Spirit.


I agree with that. We cannot fully understand the scriptures without the help of holy spirit. But surely you cannot say that a person can understand the scriptures with only holy spirit. Can you?

Quote:
Prophets were inspired to write the words of GOD .. a spirit was speaking in spiritual terms and leading them into all things ... and these prophets in turn explained these words to leaders and mankind in various ways using symbols and metaphorical speach that was sometimes made plain to prophets (as revealed with Daniel ) but most individuals were not priviledged to get the real meaning of things.


I am not arguing against this view. As I said in my initial post, we must take the genre of the document into consideration. Poetry and apocalyptic writings contain plenty of symbolic language. But we should be careful to figure out what was intended by that symbolism and not to make it mean whatever we so desire. (And we often can support our personal views by finding scattered cross-references that make it look right. But cross-referencing is not the only way to arrive at proper understanding. In fact, it isn't a very reliable way, because it takes everything out of context.)

Quote:
... if we see ( understand ) scriptures in new deeper ways and these in turn agree with the overall picture of GODs plan for mankind right from the start, then this is not preaching or teaching another truth or gospel ..


Yes, I know. And that is why I said that allegorical interpretation has its place and is not harmful if we stick to the above criteria. However, I should point out that the WTS thinks it does this, and its allegories are often wrong and misleading.
-----------
Dear Linda,

Quote:
That's why the 'whole' Bible has to taken into consideration. For those who lived prior to it's completion/fulfillment about the Christ.....We can't assume they knew what the fulfillment would be.


There were many prophecies given by the prophets, some of these were fulfilled right away and some were not. Many of these prophecies were easily understood and some were not. But the books of the prophets make up only a fraction of the Hebrew Scriptures. A great deal of it is straightforward historical narrative. To turn these into prophecies is going a bit too far, in my opinion. We have enough prophecies. Why do we need to add more? Why do we need to make everything a prophecy? Does God only do prophecies and nothing else?

Quote:
I will agree there are times a passage is meant literal and there are times it is meant figuratively/symbolically. The context of said passage should help with how it is interpreted.


Agreed.

Quote:
Also, many prophecies had a deeper, greater, and or spiritual fulfillment than the literal one.

Illistration: Think about the 'veil' that was erected in the tabernacle/temple. Why was there a veil? And, why was Jesus the only one who could remove it?


If the apostles say that there is a deeper, greater, spiritual fulfillment of something, then I accept that. If someone else does, I have to think about it.

Pages: 1 2
Reference URL's