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"The gentile times have ended...," was the cry of the Watchtower. However, how long are those Gentile Times according to the Bible? When did they start and end? I think I may have found the key....

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." - Luke 21:20-24 KJV

Verse 24 has the key phrase here. This passage clearly has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and I don't think anyone here would argue with me on that one.

We are all very familiar with this phrase in verse 24, as it is the linch pin to the Watchtower's entire system.

The question is often asked, how long were the "Gentile times"?

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." - Revelation 11:1-2 KJV

Notice it mentions the temple of God and the Holy City. Just in case you didn't figure out by this obvious statement which city this is, there is an explainaion in verse 8.

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." - Revelation 11:8 KJV

This is clearly Jerusalem. Notice the exact same phrase is used:

"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." - Luke

"The holy city shall [the Gentiles] tread under foot forty and two months." - Revelation

So the Gentile times are 42 months or 1260 days. Notice it is NOT 7 Times, or 2520 days.

Now I think (and you can disagree here), this is fulfilled in the events of the Jewish-Roman War, in the 42 months from A.D. 67-70. The fact that the Gentile court is spared I think symbolizes the shift in God's favor, from the Jews to the Gentiles.

Hi Mavos

Unfortunately, the WTS would. They claim the Gentile times started in 607BC... some 670+ years BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem! However, I agree with you... the Gentile times clearly commenced at the fall of Jerusalem.

I agree, but I'm sure you'll get PLENTY of people telling you the Temple and Holy City in Revelation 11 mean something completely different... despite the fact that Jesus Christ was impaled in one PARTICULAR holy city...

I'd personally suggest this 42 months was the SECOND half of the final 7 years, i.e. 70-73AD.

Jerusalem was NOT trodden down by the Gentiles in 66-70AD... it was mainly controlled by the Jewish rebels during this time. Remember, the closest it came to this was Cestius Gallus surrounding Jerusalem and then withdrawing unexpectedly in 66. It was only when Titus encompassed Jerusalem in 70AD, and brought the "daily sacrifice" to an end, that the second half of the final 7 years began.

This, in my opinion, is when Jerusalem began to be trampled by the Gentiles... when the Roman tenth legion breached Jerusalem's walls.

This 42 months ended at the re-capture of Masada (73AD), which had been taken 7 years previously.

"...it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished." (Dan 12:7)

The Jewish war, and thus the "shattering of the power of the holy people" was not completed until 73AD.

Other than that, what you wrote makes perfect logical sense. The Gentile times were fulfilled in the Jewish War.

I think the Gentile Times started with Peters vision.

Acts 10:14-16
14 But Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because never have I eaten anything defiled and unclean.” 15 And the voice [spoke] again to him, the second time: “You stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.” 16 This occurred a third time, and immediately the vessel was taken up into heaven.



and will end when Jesus Christ returns.



In Christ

abe

There is no connection there to the Olivet Discourse or Jerusalem's Judgment, so I don't think you are correct. The context of Luke 21 and its connection to Revelation 11 are telling indicators that it relates to the Roman-Jewish War, either 67-70 or 70-73. There are also no connections between the Gentile Times and the Second Coming.

oh, abe , (how to say ? ) I expect more from you ... :hibye:

in Christ,
rus virgil

rus,

Ok, here is more:

The Gentile Times were foreshadowed by the Abrahamic Covenant:

Genesis 22:18
And by means of your seed all nations (Gentiles) of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’”

The Jews had their chance and not long after Jesus Christs resurrection that chance was extended to the Gentiles.

This is confirmed in regard to Jerusalem by the Apostle James when he said:


Acts 15:12-17
After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David (Jerusalem) that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations (Gentiles), people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things,


At the same time as the Gentiles were being invited to rebuild Jerusalem the Israelites (Jews) sensibilities were dulled:


Romans 11:7-8
What, then? The very thing Israel (Jews) is earnestly seeking he did not obtain, but the ones chosen obtained it. The rest had their sensibilities blunted; 8 just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes so as not to see and ears so as not to hear, down to this very day.

No longer the time of the Jews.

It is now the time of the Gentiles! The ball is in their park!

It is these same Gentiles who would profane the temple of THE GOD and trample on the new booth of David (spiritual Jerusalem) which began its spiritual construction in the first century.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5
Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come (Jesus Christs return) unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?

But remember that God allows this trampling to occur!

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


It is THE END TIME GENTILES THAT TRAMPLE JERUSALEM. (aka Christianity)

Christianity has been throroughly undermined.

When will this truly reprehensible trampling be stopped?

When Jesus Christ returns and removes those reprehensible Christians (Gentiles) from his kingdom!

Matthew 13:39-43
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

Once this is complete the Gentile Times are over.

The Gentiles had their chance and trampled Jerusalem in a far more reprehensible way than the Jews did.

Now the resurrection will begin and the faithfull Jewish Christians and the faithfull Gentile Christians will be reconciled in something Jesus Christ called the re-creation.

Matthew 19:27-30
Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.
30 “But many that are first will be last and the last first.


In Christ


abe

Thank you , abe.

I appreciate your effort.

in Christ,
rus v.

You are welcome brother!

rus,

Actually, I could be more specific about when the Gentile Times are over.

Consider this:

Romans 11:25
For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations (Gentiles) has come in,


When does the last Gentile or people of the nations come in?


Revelation 7:1-3
After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”


So when the very last Gentile has been sealed we should expect to see all hell break loose on the earth!

Some people will give their consideration to this:

Jeremiah 23:19-20
Look! The windstorm of Jehovah, rage itself, will certainly go forth, even a whirling tempest. Upon the head of the wicked ones it will whirl itself. 20 The anger of Jehovah will not turn back until he will have carried out and until he will have made the ideas of his heart come true. In the final part of the days YOU people will give YOUR consideration to it with understanding.


Other people will think it is just business as usual:

2 Peter 3:3-4
For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”


In Christ

abe

Interpretum, so I think that the beast is Nero. It is interesting that Nero persecuted the Christians for the last 42 months of his reign!! What are your thoughts, sir? Is that Revelation 13:5?

NewHeart:

Thanks for your response! Very interesting! So you see Revelation as having a dual fulfillment in a similar way that some view Matthew 24 and Luke 21? My only problem with that is what indicates this to you? Where does it say to take it two ways?

Abe: Your wrong. Let me give you a little rhyme that may help you in your interpretation:

If the plain sense makes sense, don't seek another "sense", or else you'll have nonsense.

Please take that to heart because as it stands, you ignore the plain sense and context in favor of your own interpretations. You redefine all the terms and spiritualize all the chatacters to make it fit. I think your Bible twisting is how you try to justify your rejection of the Christian faith and the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The verses you quoted where forcibly ripped out of their contexts and jammed into your mold. An objective reading of each passage in it's context will not give the interpretation you've given.

Hello All,

To use verses from Rev. in support of your conjecture it would have to be have been written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem as Rev. is a prophecy future to of the time of writing. Two time periods for Revelation's authorship are presented, see arguments for each at http://www.biblecenter.de/bibel/studien/e-std310.php

I'm more inclined to toward the later date, 95/96 A.D. but since there is no absolute proof either way all reasoning proposed regarding the times of the gentiles and Revelations remain an article of faith.

Love,

Further to the above, the reason I lean toward a later date of authorship is that although bits and pieces of Rev could be applied from prior to Jerusalem's destruction in the first century a lot of it can't.

My guess is that factions of the early church may have believed it was fulfilled in the first century and this belief was promulgated culminating in the growth and power of the Roman Catholic church and their belief of being the embodiment of God's Kingdom on Earth. No doubt there were other groups along the way who have thought the same even as twentieth century JWs believe Revelation is being fulfilled in their day and God's Kingdom was established (1914/19) with only the remainder of the prophecy needing fulfilment.

But the truth is that the end hasn’t come yet and I don’t think Revelation was to have an application spanning centuries.

Regarding Jerusalem, if Revelation’s holy city refers to literal Jerusalem, as far as I know Jerusalem is still being trampled by the nations and only half of it is under Israel’s sovereignty at this present time—hence the wall dividing it.

Love,
coccus ilicis

Hi Mavos

I'm not sure how the beast could be Nero. John seems to be using the same symbology as Daniel, who describes the Roman EMPIRE as a ten horned beast, not just one man. To me, the beast is more likely to be the empire itself, with Nero as ONE of the heads, the one that "is".

I suppose it's possible the 42 months of Rev 13:5 is the period Nero persecuted the Christians. However, Revelation also talks about 42 months in Rev 11... "they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months"... so I'm more inclined to think both references are the same period, and refer to the Roman empire's authority (from God) to trample Jerusalem... which only commenced in 70AD.

I appreciate why people think the beast is Nero, especially given the 616 connection. However, I think the picture being painted is of more than one man, which is why the beast has 7 heads and is also itself an 8th king... only an empire can cycle through "heads".

I appreciate there were rumours of Nero's return. However, I think that pales into insignificance compared to the empire's actual revival in 69AD under Vespasian. The line of emperors continued... and while Nero never returned, imperial persecution did... which is why I'm more inclined to believe the heads represented individual emperors, while the beast represents the empire itself, with BTG (Rome) sitting on top.

For 666, I prefer Iranaues' solution of LATEINOS, i.e. the kingdom of the Latins... which well describes the Roman empire.