Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

The wording of Isaiah 45:7 has created quite a debate among some, for they have drawn the conclusion from this text that God is responsible for all things, including good and evil, so man has no choice in his destiny. And for a fact, the wording of the verse could be construed to mean that, for it says in the Greek text (sorry, I don't read Hebrew, so I prefer the Septuagint): ‘εγω ο κατασκευασας φως και ποιησας σκοτος ο ποιων ειρηνην και κτιζων κακα.’ Or: ‘I prepared light and made darkness; the/One who/made peace and created bad.’

My understanding of this scripture is simply that God created all things, which includes the good and the bad. He wasn’t saying that He instituted badness; but regardless of whether something is good or bad, it is He who created it; for nothing came into existence except from God.

Recognize that almost all of the book of Isaiah was written as Hebrew poetry, and if you understand that style, you'll see that the phrase ‘I created bad’ is the natural following of the words ‘I made the good,’ just as the previous stanza, ‘I formed the darkness’ follows ‘It is I who prepared the light.’

Notice that the word often translated as evil in the Septuagint is kaka; however the better choice of Greek words to translate as evil is ponerou. That bad is the preferred translation in our language is illustrated by its use in the combined form of English words (such as cacophony, meaning bad sound). And translating it as evil (though a synonym for bad) gives the misleading nuance in English of God creating wrong. However, the point of the text is simply that He created all things, not the bad motivations behind them.

A good way to illustrate the meaning of God’s words in Isaiah, is to take a look at His creation of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (spoken of at Genesis 2:9). There the Septuagint does speak of ‘το (the) ξυλον (tree) του (of the) ειδεναι (knowing) γνωστον (knowledge of) καλου (good) και (and) πονηρου (evil) (ponerou).’

In this case, God clearly created the tree that delineated the difference between good and evil (bad). However, He didn’t create the results and force a wrong outcome upon man. Rather, He allowed man the freedom of choice to do good or to do evil. So, God's words in Isaiah don't prove that man has no choice of whether to do good or evil, as some are now saying, Rather, in the light of Genesis 2:9, it appears to prove the opposite.

Hi JW, I pretty much agree with you, but have nagging questions regarding what is free choice. Does mankind really have it?  The decisions we make can be easily biased by outside influences, advertisements, past experiences etc. Even subliminal thoughts from people we are entangled with, can influence us, not to mention the mind state of the world. In a way, Jehovah created bad by creating what is good. Nothing can be good without an equal and opposite negative, with infinite possibilities.  However I don't think he "thought, instituted" badness into our Universe, but alowed someone else to "think it up", and Satan did. Jesus gave us a glimpse into our potential, and until such time that the negativity is isolated, our potentiality is limited to  very few "choices". Ideally, we will not choose the "kaka"

P.S. Keep the great posts:coffeeread: coming!

Don't you love that word? And yes, our choices and our views do seem to be limited by all the things you mentioned. It's the spirit of the authority of this world, which blinds the minds of most men. That's why I no longer like to watch the news, because nothing can be believed.

Sometimes it is useful to look at thing backwards. In the end God will have things EXACTLY the way he chose to have them, from the beginning.
Rom 8:20
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
(NAU)


Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(NAU)




Rom 9:18-23
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
(NAU)

God never makes mistakes, everything happens as He meant it to.

Grace and peace,
iknowhim

Who am I to think I can even offer anything on this thread.
BUT...I was thinking of this subject during the boring WT study this morning.
Jehovah created up/down...black/white...in/out...dark/light and so forth.
If all his activities are perfect, and all good things come from Him...
I don't think he 'created' EVIL per se.
EVIL is just a natural by-product, of being opposite and opposed from Him.

His Spirit is a tangible thing...something we can cultivate, pray for and receive.
(A protection from evil).

I don't think I am explaining correctly...I can't verbalize it.
I think I need Brother Beau right now with his Dynamics.

Much Christian Love :)
Your Sister the 'High School Flunky'...
who doesn't believe Jehovah 'created' evil.

Hello CR

Thank you so much for your lovely PM. It reall made my day. It made my heart soar!:)

Read Romans 9 and tell me what you think.

Could we know of God's grace with out the fall?

As for me, I love God more, knowing how great a salvation I have recieved!

:clap: Greetings fellow slaves!! :clap:

Hey Bro Jim! - thanks for the great posting mate! I am happy our Father has brought you here to this wonderful oasis! I have a few thoughts about this!! Hehehe!!

:giverose: Ill sure try, my cool sister!! (good to see ya matey!! -- Please post more often, and you ARE somebody!! So you CAN post on anything!!) Love to you and hubby!! :giverose:

I do not believe that our Father created evil, per se - but I feel an answer lies in a few scriptures! First off -->

"At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE." -- Exodus 3:14

To me, this has more significance than its given context. imo, this shows the unlimited potentiality of our Fathers Nature -- and that is, that Jehovah God can 'Be and Do' anything and everything He wants to 'Be and Do', to accomplish His desired outcome -- He Causes to Become!! imo, this also shows part of the Creation Process! Also, imo, this shows something else -- it shows the nature of Thought Energy!! (no, I dont believe that Jehovah = Thought Energy -- more like the Universe = Thought Energy)

"And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be.” Then there came to be light" -- Genesis 1:3

This is the first example the scriptures give of the Creation process - Thought Energy - Jehovahs Thoughts in this instance! - going from formless to being expressed into form! (though, both form and formless in this instance are phenomena of physicality!)

Going back the unlimited potentiality of Jehovah God - and Thought Energy, at the core quantum level of existence - the energy level - we also get to see what Romans 1:20 says about creation -->

"For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship" -- Romans 1:20

Creation shows us something about our Father - the stuff that vibrates at the core of every Atom, also, imo, shows something about our Father! It shows His unlimited potentiality!! And look around you mates! Isnt existence on this planet immensly vast, let alone the dimensions of the Universe itself!! Creation comes about as the result of three things (maybe more, but, these are the two I can think of!! Hehehe!!)


1. Thought Energy shows a quality of our Father -- unlimited potentiality! -- "I AM THAT I AM"

2. Thought Energy gains a connection to Consciousness (Mind) thereby manifesting it, into whatever the Mind wants!!

3. The polarity the Consciousness resonates as -- Light or Darkness.


And therein lies the answer to the question, "Does God create evil?" I firmly believe that our Father - Jehovah God!! - did not create evil, but that evil comes about as the result of the 3 things mentioned above. Thought has unlimited potential - it manifests according the mind that 'thinks' the thoughts and depending on which side of the 'FORCE' the mind resides, determines the manifestation!! Evil is a potential, as Good is a potential!!

One other thing though, is that evil cannot last forever, as the dynamics of evil are cancerous. Once enough of the mind becomes evil, it destroys itself. There is nothing that has been created, that can exist outside of Law forever -- Life brings Life, Sin brings death. At the end of the day, this really just goes to show how awesome our Father really is!! Lets all shout His Great Name --> 1,2,3

:yahoo: < :king: JEHOVAH GOD!! :king: > :yahoo:

May LOVE be with you!!

your bro -- beau!! :friends::friends::friends:

Hi my brother, thanks for the kind words. I see that we are in fact in agreement. However, there are those who are currently debating this subject on another site, and my conclusion is that they must just love to argue, for who would question whether we have free will.
From your words I gather that you must be from the other side of the world, and it must be evening for you. But I'm an early riser.

Love this topic! Countryroad, your thoughts might be more profound then you realize.;); "If all his activities are perfect, and all good things come from Him...
I don't think he 'created' EVIL per se.
EVIL is just a natural by-product, of being opposite and opposed from Him."
To realize that there cannot be a positive without a negative is a concept not realized by many. This does not mean that there has to be an equal and opposite evil for every "good'. There is infinite potentialities on both sides, but we can choose which side we want to think in. Those who continue to think in the negative, will eventually self destruct. (Thanks Beau!)
In the future, we will all think in the positive, like YHWH.
..."in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart(mind).’ Jer.7:30
Where will evil go? It will always exisit as a potential, however we will not choose to think it...
14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. Rev 20.......evil will be in an eternal abyss.

There are thousands of paradoxical (quantum) expression like this in the Bible. {can u think of more?} In the future, we will literally think ourselves into perfection...8 “Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God."
. 10 "For with the heart one exercises faith" Rom 10:10
29 "But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code."

We can make cognitive choices to "live the Kingdom now", as best we can, and be unified with Jesus and the Father...
20 "In that day YOU will know that I am in union with my Father and YOU are in union with me and I am in union with YOU." Jn 14.
We are all connected!...:grouphug:..............to be continued:read:

e-mag "It will always exisit as a potential, however we will not choose to think it..."

What is free will?  would be the jeapordy question for this.. I think.

And it does sum it all up

our HEart/mind will not look at things in a bad way is the way I understand this.  

Peace to u seekers of light

I absolutely agree.
Physics is with you guys. The absence of light is darkness.
So in creating light, Jehovah not only made us aware of its absence, darkness, but created the concept of darkness.
Evil is the absence of good.
Jehovah is GOOD, absolute good, as his Son said. By allowing us to be aware of goodness, Jehovah has automatically created in us an awareness of evil.
Is there anything wrong in this? No!
We do not have to head off trying to distinguish the differences between areas of fuzzy grey.
We have light in one corner dark in the other.
Good in one corner, evil in the other.
We have a simpler task of distinguishing the two and heading in the right direction.
'Let there be light.'

Dear friends,

Just to recap:

Are you saying that "the absence of good" is the definition of evil?

So what is your definition of good? [It cannot be the absence of evil! :-))  ]

When we use analogies they are little stories not a truth in itself and they often do not cover all aspects of the situation we humans find ourselves in.

Was anthrax created by God?  Once contracted it is death dealing.
Is anthrax, evil or good?

Is a massive tsunami, evil or good?

This will lead to other questions!:D

Peace and well being to you all.
Your brother
Derek

Yes, Yes, Yes!!!

Thank-you so much for starting this topic, I have spent many hours thinking about this and I'm so glad to see the many wize words written here so far!!!

First I wish to go back and look at the vs in Isaiah again, notice how the two postive things are mentioned first? The forming of the light created darkness, causing well-being created calmity.

If we look at every sence we have they are based on the ability to decern contrast. We can see because of contrast, we feel, smell, taste, hear all based on this principle of contrast, we even walk and move because of contrast, we sleep and wake, we hunger and eat, we thirst and drink.....all based on contrast.

I'd like to use an illustration for how I now understand this vs in Isaiah.

Let's say you have a large flat piece of land, and you want to build a hill, well one way would be to dig a hole, and the larger you made the hill the deeper the hole would become. So by creating the postive hill you caused the negative hole to be created also.

By creating the hill you also have created a choice....you can climb the hill or go down into the hole....

CountryRoad, Man hu, e-magine and digital_punk I truly believe there is A LOT we can learn by careful reflection of this, it's seems to me there is a pattern between the physics of our real world and spiritual principles.

Let's think about this and go back to the Eden events. Was it a test, or was YHWH simply telling them the truth?

For everlasting life to exist for the righteous, does not death need to be the opposite, so that way EVIL can go out of existence for ever?

Life and death is the ultimate expression of postive and negative, so much so that the one almost causes the other to be in a different dimention??

He found a way to create man to be able to live on the one beautiful side of the postive equation!

I believe YHWH only created ONE choice, and that's the only one choice we make over and over again, we need to choose his spiritual voice of light over the darkness of the voice of our flesh....because that I think is the contrast....

It's late and I'm really going to let my hair down on this one!! (and my hair is long!)

Notice when he spoke to Adam he said 'because you have listened to the VOICE of your wife" Well remember how Adam said "This is bone of my bone and FLESH of my FLESH;..."

I see that she is the symbol for him having listened to his flesh rather than to God.

I believe our bodies will always be the way they are now, wearing down, getting hungery, tired, thirsty, sleepy, because we experience phyical life through these contrasts!! Food is good when we are hungery, water is great when we are thirsty, sleep is beautiful when we are tired!!

However I believe that as the body(physics negative)wears down,  the spirit (physics postive) will BUILD it up again!!
I'm not saying I see the body as negative in the meaning of bad, but more like the north and south poles, as in Physics. If we are the north we need to draw to the south.

Now I'll tell you what I think the choice really boils down to....

We can hear two voices.....our own and God's........which one do we listen to??

Which voice is God's voice?

How can we tell....

Digging

Dear Jackie,
It is good to see you.

I think we often read Hebrew poetry with a clinical Western mind. And as a result take it too literally.

I do not believe the evil in this text is same evil that exists in the world which is demonic, such evil has led to the massacre of millions of innocent lives. Such evil, when one is in its presence, can be felt almost touched. It is NOT merely the absence of good..it is satanic.

Warm Christian love
Derek

Hello back at you Derek,

I agree with you, pure good is the total opposite of satanic evil.

To have the absence of good can put us at the starting point of the evil.

Like wise the absence of evil can place us at the starting point of righteouseness, BUT we then we must take our first step!

Yes??

Digging