Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Bible Reading Without The Publications.

http://ebedabodah.blogspot.com/2009/06/b...tions.html

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Bangalore,

Thanks.

Now have his blog bookmarked.

Looks like whoever owns this blog is very familiar with Paradise Cafe.

Very interesting that more and more people are catching on to the idea that the Watchtowers Governing Body is the "man of lawlessness"


In Christ

abe

Yes more and more people are becoming aware about the organizations misdeeds. Lots of interesting blogs out there.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Bible Reading Without the Publications
When the Governing Body of the Watchtower says that disobeying them is the same as disobeying Jehovah, I find problems with that. Could it be that they are "lift[ing themselves] up over everyone who is called 'god'...so that [they] sit down in the temple of The God, publicly showing [themselves] to be a god"?-2 Thessalonians 2:4
??????????

Finally , Thank you dear brothers for this thread
It is my favorite subject

Why of course this is the very ,apostasy that Paul was warning us about for the times we NOW are living in.

We were not to see or understand what Paul wrote here in 2 Thess 2:1-12 until this apostasy was uncovered, which it has now been uncovered.

This would also be a spear head of the generation that was living in the end times as a sign that the 3.5 years that the slave squeezed and fitted into the 1914-1918 =3.5 years is now facing us with out the deception.
but it will be Jehovah Himself carrying out His purpose.
Not the deception that was laid out in 1914-1918
>>>>>>>>>
2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 (New International Version, ©2010)
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

>>>

It is so ironic that one of the powerful works of Satan is to have one believe that we that deserted the JW organization and fled are the ones that have fallen away from our God given foundation .

when in reality the ones who have fallen away from the truth are the ones sticking to the Lie of 1914 and all the deception that went with that year..Taking in 1914-1918 the 3.5 years which still lays ahead.


Prayerfully read 2 Thess 2:1-4.:read:

It has opened for qll seeking to please Jehovah and His son to see that Lie had to come FIRST, but as Paul is telling us in our time that LIE of 1914 did not come from them ( The Apostles inspired writings/
Paul cannot be any clearer in what he is telling us what to watch for.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (Amplified Bible) Paul writes

BUT RELATIVE to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren,
Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here.

Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [a]apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [b]falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(A)




Footnotes:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 A possible rendering of the Greek apostasia is "departure [of the church]."
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Paul was not speaking to Christendom, they never had the truth, He is speaking to the Church of Christ, Those reaching out for the higher calling along with their companions.
That error of 1914 aloud for the evil slave to enter the Temple and sit down as a god.
Its as clear as crystal , .2 Thess 2 ::4-12:read:

Didn't Jesus tell his disciples that the literal Temple would be torn down ,but he Jesus would raise in up in three days. Speaking of himself and a spiritual Temple.
a spiritual Temple of God made up of living stones , where Jehovah's spirit would dwell , where Jesus himself would be the Head.

Didn't the slave usurp the head Jesus Christ , remove him, and sat themselves in the Temple making themselves a god.
Sure they did,!!

Satan also has turned those inside their so called court yard to the worship of this false god which is IDOLITRY./

Has anyone ever heard the WT refer to the organization as the Ark of salvation ?
I had heard that expression many time,
I don't know if its in writing or not, but I know many feel outside the so called ARK there is no salvation.

The way that slave has treated Christ , I wont be surprised if before this is all over , they will be the antichrist,
JUST MY THOUGHTS.

after all they must know that it is Christ that is our SALVATION , but that isn't what those inside are being fed .,
after all that slave makes the claim they are the entrusted slave appointed to give out the proper food at the proper time.

Little do the friends know inside that the cupboard is bare , the "SLAVE " dispensed all the surplus food that was in the cupboard for the proper time on the wrong generation...

It was all a false hood. "",mind controlled to seem real. ""( Satan's wonderful works of deception ).
We have now come to the cross roads ,where Jehovah is dispensing HIS food Thru His son ,to His true servants.

Its not until one does away with the WT literature and searches the scriptures and allows Jehovah to do the teaching thru our great teacher Jesus Christ that He removes the scales from our eyes/

Susanna :grouphug:

I remember Ebed from Robert's board. He also had a discussion forum of his own.

It's good to see that he makes a distinction between Jehovah's Witnesses and the WT organization. In my mind, too, they are not the same. Briefly, I'd say that Jehovah's Witnesses (the brotherhood) are held captive by the WT (the corporate and legal structure). In other words, the corporation has hijacked the brotherhood.:readthis:

The WT corporation is becoming more and more easily seen for what it is.

Thanks Bangalore bro!

rez

Howdy Bang

Re: "Lots of interesting blogs out there."

Yes, for example, there's a reference to the Perimeno web site, that, although contains much valuable information, imo; also describes those that do not continue in association with the Watchtower Organization, as deserters!

This is, to me. an unfortunate, inaccurate position to teach. I do not feel I have deserted anyone. I feel I would be deserting my Lord Jesus and Father in heaven by even indirectly supporting/promoting complete trust in men via presence or participation at meetings that openly worship/bow spiritually speaking...men (The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses). My position, I believe, is a position of my personal conscience....and would be inappropriate to "assign" or encourage another to adopt.

Jesus states clearly... John 6:44..."No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And all of them will be taught by God.' Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned anything comes to me."

Encouragement to "stay" or "leave", imo, detracts from reliance of/on holy spirit to direct individuals "positions" before our Father and our Lord Jesus in worshiping in spirit and truth.

John 14:1... "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. There are many rooms in my Father's house. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you? And if I am going away to prepare a place for you, I will come again and will welcome you into my presence, so that you may be where I am.
You know where I am going, and you know the way."


In my view, the writer of the article quoted below is misapplying/adapting scripture (as the Watchtower does, imo), to fit personal interpretation. For repetition, (and for the sake of argument...grin), if I feel my Father in heaven has drawn me (and others) to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, how on earth (or in heavens name...grin), is no longer promoting men, being a deserter?

a quote from Perimeno article:

"Nowhere is Jehovah telling anyone to “get out,” as some are going around preaching. In fact, all those who decide to leave are considered as “insincere” and “deserters,” as the Amplified Bible describes them: “And some of those who are wise, prudent, and understanding shall be weakened and fall, [thus, then, the insincere among the people will lose courage and become deserters. It will be a test] to refine, to purify, and to make those among [God's people] white, even to the time of the end, because it is yet for the time [God] appointed.” (Daniel 11:35)"

from:

http://perimeno.ca/Letters_1210_confusio...d_ones.htm

:coffeeread:

gogh,

An apostasy is a falling away from a previously held conviction, an abandonment of loyalty.

Paul was addressing Christians whose loyalty is to Jesus Christ.

Those apostates are now loyal to an organization of men.

They have fallen away from Christ.

In my opinion Perimono has it backwards.

The deserters are the ones being loyal to Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ has even commanded that we desert the false prophets:

Luke 21:7-8
He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.

As Susanna pointed out above these men are the evil slave, the son of perdition.

They are the modern day Judas Iscariots.

The scriptures show however, that Jesus Christ is still the master of the evil slave, they must therfore be called ones just as Judas Iscariot was a called one. Sons of perdition.

The relationship of the evil slave to the faithful slave is still an intimate one.

If all this is understood then I don't think we are far off from answering the question Jesus Christ raised; "who really is the faithful slave".

Immediately after describing the "man of lawlessness" the Apostle Paul himself thanks and comforts them:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-17
13 However, we are obligated to thank God always for YOU, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected YOU from [the] beginning for salvation by sanctifying YOU with spirit and by YOUR faith in the truth. 14 To this very destiny he called YOU through the good news we declare, for the purpose of acquiring the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain YOUR hold on the traditions that YOU were taught, whether it was through a verbal message or through a letter of ours. 16 Moreover, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and gave everlasting comfort and good hope by means of undeserved kindness, 17 comfort YOUR hearts and make YOU firm in every good deed and word


In my opinion the Apostle Paul is extending this thank you to the faithful ones living immediately before the time Jesus Christ does come to gather his chosen "called ones". The ones who have been sealed.

He is thanking those ones who clearly see the "man of lawlessness".


In Christ

abe

Gogh - if my pregnancy hormone addled memory serves me, isn't Perimeno a little like e-watchman theologically speaking. i.e he believes he is annointed by the JW definition of the word?

If one subscribes to a doctrine that tells you you are one of only 144000 special people in all of history, then you're going to hold onto it and find a way to keep that part no matter what. It would be a come-down for an "anointed" person to suddenly realise that they were actually no more special than any other christian.


(however, I've yet to meet a Christian who wasn't special in some way, and I know the real, actual anointing given to Christians goes far and beyond anything ever seen within the WTBTS. In my opinion (and it's only opinion) those within the WT who have had some experience that tells them they're "annointed" are probably having real encounters with God, then percieving that encounter through WT lenses.)

rez,

It is also my conviction that the brotherhood has been hijacked and held captive. They are being treated miserably. Families are being torn apart and completely destroyed. There is no real peace or justice.


Jesus Christ applied this scripture to himself in Luke 4:16:

Isaiah 61:1-3
The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening [of the eyes] even to the prisoners; 2 to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones; 3 to assign to those mourning over Zion, to give them a headdress instead of ashes, the oil of exultation instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of the downhearted spirit;


and he also said this:

John 14:12
Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do;


I do believe there is an obligation to emancipate them.


But how?


In Christ

abe

Mavos,

I understand why my convictions dismay you.

If what I say is true then it means your chosen path has no biblical relevance.

I am also certain the preterists will be here soon to tell us that it was the 1st century temple in Jerusalem that Paul was referring to.

Even though Jesus Christ made that temple completely redundant with his death and resurrectuion.


In Christ

abe

Abe says
In my opinion Perimono has it backwards.
The deserters are the ones being loyal to Jesus Christ.

>>>>>>>
Abe
I agree with this statement 100%

Jesus said in John 4:23-25
A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.

God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, He Who is called the Christ (the Anointed One); and when He arrives, He will tell us everything we need to know and make it clear to us.
>>>>>>>>>
( and he Jesus did ) Its all written.
When speaking of the so called sheperds of Gods people who were only feeding crumbs to the natural Jews , Jesus said in

Matthew 15:14
Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
It was those who listened to Jesus, that walked away, from the blind guides.and became Jesus deciples.

To believe that Jahs spirit is with a earthly organization is on the border of blasphemy , especially when the inspired word of God says

"The WHOLE WORLD is laying in the power of the wicked one."
Jahs spirit is with those that Love Him with their whole heart soul and mind.

Jesus said this is the greatest commandment.

Now I hope we can agree to disagree. There certainly could not be a intimate relationship between the wheat and the weeds, for the simple reason they are two different seeds,

One belonging to Jah and the other belonging to Satan

Genesis 3:15 (Amplified Bible)

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her [a]Offspring; He will bruise and tread your head underfoot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel.(A)


Footnotes:
Genesis 3:15 Christ fulfills through his victory over Satan the wonderful promise here spoken. See also Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:31; Rom. 16:20; Gal. 4:4; Rev. 12:17.
Cross references:
Genesis 3:15 : Gal 4:4
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Matthew 13:25
But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
Matthew 13:24-26 (in Context) Matthew 13 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 13:26
When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
Matthew 13:25-27 (in Context) Matthew 13 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 13:29
“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 13 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Matthew 13:29-31 (in Context) Matthew 13 (Whole Chapter)

Love susanna :grouphug:

I'm actually quite shocked by Perimeno's use of this spurious phrase (that I've highlighted in red) from the Amplified Bible. It's bad enough when one or two words are altered or added that change the intended meaning of the scripture. But to add a whole phrase such as this.....:shocked:

Very naughty, my brother Perimeno!

rez

rez,

Yes, I believe that what Perimono said will perhaps stumble some people.

Daniel 11:35 comes immediately after describing the constant feature and the disgusting thing that Jesus Christ himself said we should read with discernment.

In my opinion Daniel 11:35 is addressing those ones who were loyal to Jesus Christ and withdrew from the city.

They fled.

They deserted the false prophets who put the disgusting thing in place of the constant feature. The ones who entered the Christian temple and lifted themselves up.

In my opinion Daniel 11:35 has immediate application to exactly what you will find happening on this and other forums, to the people who have obeyed Jesus Christ and fled / deserted.

Daniel 11:32-35
“And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. 33 And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. 34 But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.


I believe there really is a stumbling and refining happening right here on this forum.

Our convictions are being tested.

Those convictions and the actions that result as a consequence will either prevail or be stumbled.

From reading some of the posts above it appears to me that many convictions are indeed being refined.


Including my own.


In Christ

abe

Abe, bro, I have the utmost love and respect for Perimeno. He has done much to clarify some important points regarding baptism and the new covenant. That is why I feel particularly distressed by the above presentation.

As for how we help our brothers at this time, I follow the adage: "Make haste -- slowly!" We can do no more than our Lord Jesus laid out for us. When we adhere to his words we're in a safe zone and are showing obedience to our Father in heaven who said: "This is my son, the beloved. Listen to him."

I'd hate to be found misleading my brothers in any way. There is where my fear and trembling lies. Love of God and our fellow man is what will identify us as Christians....particularly love among ourselves. Let us always promote godly love!

Trying to get all the prophesy worked out and nailed down is not how I want to proceed. It doesn't feel like the time for that. But that's just me.

rez :grouphug: