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In chapter three of his book "Crisis Of Conscience" Ray Franz mentions that the GB interfered in the private bedroom matters of the JW's. Here is an excerpt from that chapter.


These are only a partial sampling of things discussed during the first two years or two of my being on the Body. The effect of our decisions was considerable in its impact on the lives of others. In matters of divorce, for example, the congregation elders serve as a sort of religious court and if they are not satisfied as to the validity of a divorce action, the individual who goes through with such a divorce and then later remarries becomes subject to disfellowshiping.

A matter, not among those just mentioned, but which brought considerable discussion involved a Witness couple in California. Someone had seen in their bedroom certain literature and photographs dealing with unusual sex practices. (I do not recall that we learned just how or why the Witness individual reporting this happened to have access to the couple's bedroom.) Investigation and interrogation by the local elders confirmed that the couple did engage in sexual relations other than simple genital copulation.8 Correspondence from the elders came in to Brooklyn and the Governing Body was called upon to rule as to what action if any should be taken toward the couple.

Until the correspondence was read to us that morning, none of us aside from the president had had any opportunity to think about the subject. Yet within a couple of hours the decision was reached that the couple was subject to disfellowshiping. This was thereafter set out as a formal published policy, applicable to any persons engaging willfully in similar practices.

The published material was understood and applied in such a way that marriage mates generally felt obliged to report to the elders if any such practice existed or developed in their marriage, whether mutually agreed upon or done solely at the initiation of one of the mates. (In the latter case the noninitiating mate was expected to come forward and convey this information to the elders if the initiating mate was unwilling to do so.) To fail to come forward generally is viewed as indicative of an unrepentant attitude and as weighing in favor of disfellowshiping. The belief that disfellowshiping cuts one off from the one organization where salvation can be found, as well as from friends and relatives, exercises heavy pressure on the person to conform, no matter how difficult confession (or reporting) to the elders may be.

The Governing Body's decision in 1972 resulted in a sizeable number of "judicial hearings" as elders followed up on reports or confessions of the sexual practices involved. Women experienced painful embarrassment in such hearings as they responded to the elders' questions about the intimacies of their marital relations. Many marriages where one of the mates was not a Witness underwent a turbulent period, with the non-Witness mate objecting strenuously to what he or she considered an unwarranted invasion of bedroom privacy. Some marriages broke up with resulting divorce.

An unprecedented volume of mail came in over a period of five years, most of it questioning the Scriptural basis for the Governing Body members inserting themselves into the private lives of others in such a way, and expressing inability to see the validity of the arguments advanced in print to support the stand taken. (The principal portion of Scripture relied upon was Romans, chapter one, verses 24-27, dealing with homosexuality, and those writing to the Society pointed out that they could not see how it could rightly be applied to heterosexual relations between man and wife.) Other letters, often from wives, simply expressed confusion and anguish over their uncertainty as to the properness of their "sexual foreplay."

One woman said she had talked to an elder and he had told her to write to the Governing Body "for a sure answer." So she wrote, saying that she and her husband loved each other deeply and then she described the "certain type of foreplay" they were accustomed to, stating "I believe it's a matter of conscience, but I am writing you to be sure." Her closing words were: I am scared, I am hurt, and I am more worried at this time about [my husband's] feeling for the truth. . . . I know you will tell me what to do.

In another typical letter an elder wrote, saying that he had a problem he wanted to get straightened out in his mind and heart and that to do this he felt "it's best to contact the ‘mother' for advice."

The problem dealt with his marital sex life and he said that he and his wife were confused as to "where to draw the line in the act of foreplay before the actual act of sex." He assured the Society that he and his wife would "follow any advice you give us to the letter."

These letters illustrate the implicit trust these persons had come to place in the Governing Body, the belief that the men forming that Body could tell them where to "draw the line" in even such intimate aspects of their personal lives, and that they should rightly hew to that line "to the letter."

Many letters went out from the Society in response. Often they endeavored to provide some limited clarification (saying without exactly saying) as to what sexual foreplay fell within the bounds of condemned actions, other foreplay thereby being exempt.

A memo from a member of the Society's Service Department, in June of 1976, discusses a telephone conversation with an Instructor of seminars (held with elders). The memo relates that the Instructor had phoned about an elder attending the seminar who confessed to certain disapproved sexual practices within his marriage. The memo states: Brother [here giving the name of the instructor] closely discussed the matter with him to determine whether it was really oral copulation that was involved. . . . [The Instructor] had told him in view of the circumstances that he ought to go to the other members of the committee and it happened that the other two members of the committee were in the class and so he went and talked with them. Now [the Instructor] was wondering what else should be done. . . . It was suggested to [him] that he write a full report on this to the Society so that in the future when he has any such case come up he will have direction on how to handle the matter and he will not have to call.

This illustrates the extent to which interrogation went in intimacy and the extent to which the headquarters organization supervised the whole situation.

Letter after letter revealed that the persons involved felt positively responsible before God to report to the elders any deviance from the norm established by the Governing Body. A man in a Midwestern state who confessed to an infringement of the Governing Body's decision as regards his marital relations with his wife was told by the elders that they were writing about this to the Society; he also wrote an accompanying letter. Eight weeks passed and finally he wrote again to Brooklyn, saying that "the waiting, anxiety and anticipation is almost more than I can bear." He said that he had been removed from all congregational assignments, including offering prayer at the meetings, and that "almost weekly I am losing something that I have worked and prayed for for thirty years." He pleaded for an early answer, saying I do need some mental relief as to how I stand with Jehovah's organization.

Some elders endeavored to take a moderate approach to the matter. Doing so, however, could make them liable for reprimand from the headquarters' offices in Brooklyn. Consider the letter on the following page. The letter is a photocopy of that sent by the Society's Service Department to one body of elders (names and specific places have been blocked out).

Interestingly, some elders actually felt that the Governing Body's position was, if anything, somewhat lenient or limited. A letter sent by an elder in the United States says: Some of the older brothers felt that the Governing Body could have gone even further in condemning unnatural practices among married couples to include assuming certain positions when performing the sexual act. . . .

Later this elder expressed his own feelings saying: Since Jehovah went into great detail in this chapter [18] of Leviticus as well as other chapters on sexual behavior, why is there no statement made to married couples as to acceptable or unacceptable forms of copulation? Would it not be likely that Jehovah would have done so if he wanted this personal and private area of the marriage union open to the scrutiny or opinions of the "Judges" or "Older men" of Israel so that appropriate action could be taken against offending individuals?

Some of those affected by the organization's ruling were persons whose normal sexual functions had been seriously impaired by an operation or by an accident. Some of these expressed dismay at the position in which the Governing Body's decision placed them.

One such person who had become impotent in this way, had, during the years that followed, been able to perform a sexual role through one of the means now condemned by the organization. Before the Governing Body's ruling he said he had been able to stop feeling like half a man, because he could still please his wife. Now, he wrote saying that he could not see the Scriptural proof for the stand taken in the Watchtower magazine but that his wife felt duty bound to obey, and because he loved her he acceded. He said he knew that he was the same as before, yet emotionally he was crumbling since he feared their marriage would be seriously affected. He pleaded to be told if there was not some "loophole" in God's will that would allow him the satisfaction of pleasing his wife.

All of these situations put considerable strain on the conscience of elders called upon to deal with those offending against the Governing Body's decision. At the conclusion of the earlier-mentioned letter from one elder, that elder states: I find I can only use what Bible laws and principles I understand with any degree of sincerity and conviction in representing Jehovah and Christ Jesus, and if I have to administer these laws and principles in exercising my responsibility as an elder in the congregation I want to do it not because I have come to take for granted that this is Jehovah's organization and I'm going to follow it no matter what it says, but do it because I truly believe it to be scripturally proven and correct. I truly want to continue believing as Paul admonished the Thessalonians in the second chapter, verse 13, to accept the word of God, not as of men, but as it truthfully is, as the word of God.

His position is notable. I frankly doubt that many elders today would feel free to express themselves in this manner, declaring their position in such clear, frank terms. Though I find the sexual practices involved to be definitely contrary to my personal standards, I can honestly say that I did not favor the disfellowshiping decision made by the Body. But that is all that I can say. For when the vote came I conformed to the majority decision. I felt dismayed when the Body assigned me to prepare material in support of the decision, yet I accepted the assignment and wrote it as was desired by the Body, in conformity with its decision.

Thus I cannot say that I acted according to the same fine outlook expressed by the elder just quoted. My belief in the organization as God's only agency on earth caused me to do what I did at that time without particularly great qualms of conscience. The bulk of the correspondence on this subject never reached the Governing Body, being handled by the staff members assigned to "correspondence desks" or by the members of the Service Department. I am sure, however, that the various Governing Body members must have been made aware, likely through personal contacts and conversations, that many felt they had improperly invaded people's private lives.

When finally, after some five years, the matter came up again on the agenda, the disfellowshiping policy was reversed and the Governing Body in effect now withdrew itself from that intimate area of others' lives. Again the Body assigned me to prepare material for publication, this time advising of the change. I found it personally satisfying to be able to acknowledge, even though rather obliquely, that the organization had been in error. The February 15, 1978, Watchtower, pages 30 and 32, carried the material and included the following points:

Actually, I felt that way about a whole host of matters that came before us, that there was really no basis in Scripture for taking dogmatic stands on the vast majority of things we were ruling on. I expressed that view here and it was accepted by the Body on this point. I expressed that same view again and again in the future but it was rarely accepted.

Looking over the letters at hand, some of which have been presented, whatever satisfaction it brought to write that corrective material seems rather hollow. For I know that no matter what was said, it could never in any way compensate for or repair all the damage in embarrassment, mental confusion, emotional distress, guilt pangs, and broken marriages that resulted from the earlier decision-a decision made in a few hours by men almost all of whom were approaching the matter ‘cold,' with no previous knowledge, thought, meditation, specific prayer on the matter or searching of Scriptures, but whose decision was nonetheless put in force globally for five years and affected many people for a lifetime. None of it needed ever to have occurred.

Another issue that arose, somewhat linked to the above, involved a Witness in South America whose husband had confessed to having had sexual relations with another woman. The problem was that he said that the relations were of the kind involved in the issue earlier described, in this particular case anal and not genital copulation.

The decision of the Governing Body was that this did not qualify as adultery; that adultery required strictly genital copulation ‘capable of producing children.' Therefore the man had not become "one flesh" with the other woman and hence the decision was that the wife had no grounds for Scriptural divorce and future remarriage.

The existing rule of voting required unanimity of decision and I conformed. I felt genuinely disturbed, however, at thinking about this woman and her being told that she could not Scripturally choose to become free from a man guilty of such an act. The decision also meant that a husband who engaged in homosexual acts with other men or who even had relations with a beast was not subject to "Scriptural divorce," since a man could not, with any procreative possibilities, become "one flesh" with another man or with an animal. A Watchtower magazine earlier that year had, in fact, specifically ruled this way.

The emotional upset I felt moved me to make a study of the original language terms (in Greek) used in Matthew, chapter nineteen, verse 9. The Society's New World Translation there presents Jesus as saying: I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery. Two different words are used, "fornication" and "adultery," yet the Watchtower publications for many decades had taken the position that they both referred essentially to the same thing, that the "fornication" meant a man's having adulterous relations with a woman other than his wife (or a wife's having such relations with a man not her husband). Why then, I asked myself, did Matthew, in recording Jesus' statement, use two different words (porneia and moikheia) if the same thing, adultery, was actually meant in both cases?

Searching through the many translations, Bible dictionaries, commentaries and lexicons in the Bethel library, the reason became obvious. Practically every book I opened showed that the Greek term porneia (rendered as "fornication" in the New World Translation) was a very broad term and applied to ALL types of sexual immorality and for this reason many Bible translations simply render it as "immorality," "sexual immorality," "unchastity," "unfaithfulness."

Lexicons clearly showed that the term was also applied to homosexual relations. The conclusive point to me, however, was realizing that in the Bible itself porneia is used at Jude, verse 7, to denote the notorious homosexual conduct of people in Sodom and Gomorrah. I prepared fourteen pages of material containing the results of the research and made copies for each member of the Body. But I felt very uncertain as to how this would be received and so I went to Fred Franz's office and explained what I had done, expressing my doubt that the material would be favorably accepted. He said, "I don't believe there will be any difficulty." Though very brief, the words were spoken with a tone of confidence. When I inquired if he would like to see what had been found, he declined and again said he thought there would be "no problem."

My impression was that he was already aware of some of the points my research had revealed, though for how long I had no way of knowing. Since he had been the principal translator of the Society's New World Translation I felt he must surely have at least been apprised of the true sense of the word porneia ("fornication").

When the matter came up in the Governing Body session, the material I submitted was accepted, Fred Franz having expressed his support, and I was assigned to prepare articles for publication in the Watchtower presenting the changed stand this would bring about.

I still remember, some time after the articles appeared, a letter that came in from a Witness who some years before had discovered her husband having sexual relations with an animal. As she said, "I couldn't live with a man like that," and she divorced him. Later she remarried. The congregation then disfellowshiped her for so doing as she was not "Scripturally free." After the Watchtower articles appeared, she now wrote and asked that, in view of the changed position, something be done to clear her name of the reproach she had suffered as a result of the disfellowshiping action. I could only write her that the articles published were themselves a vindication of her course.

Though again it had been satisfying to prepare the material acknowledging the organization's erroneous view and rectifying it, the sobering thought remained that this could never undo whatever harm the previous position had caused over decades of time and only God knows-to how many people.

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore
I personally knew of a sister whose husband was having a homosexual affair. Because of their dogged rules about "one flesh", she was not allowed to divorce him. It was quite a while before the rules changed -- and she divorced him as quick as she could. Interestingly, she ended up remarrying a non-Jehovah's Witness.
Fascinating! Its interesting that the abuse of Romans has hurt many more types of people than just me. Aside from the fact that the governing body do a very decent impersonation of corrupt scribes and Pharisees with their spiritual malpractice, it occurs to me that sheer common sense combined with a loving attitude could have done a much more successful job at biblical legal interpretation than 12 old guys who have never had a proper life. Apart from the fact we are not under law any more that is.

Melancholymuse Wrote:
I personally knew of a sister whose husband was having a homosexual affair. Because of their dogged rules about "one flesh", she was not allowed to divorce him. It was quite a while before the rules changed -- and she divorced him as quick as she could. Interestingly, she ended up remarrying a non-Jehovah's Witness.


The abuse of Romans in another area, that of homosexuality, is probably the reason a gay man married a straight women in the first place. I'm not sure there has been another passage of scripture quite as badly understood. I think its probable that both were victims in different ways.

Imo, Ray Franz acted responsibly in trying to correct horrible decisions made by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. As a younger person (early twenties in the nineteen seventies), the Organizations doctrine effected my decisions...It is good to be free from decisions of others consciences.

a quote of Ray Franz:

"Practically every book I opened showed that the Greek term porneia (rendered as "fornication" in the New World Translation) was a very broad term and applied to ALL types of sexual immorality and for this reason many Bible translations simply render it as "immorality," "sexual immorality," "unchastity," "unfaithfulness."

:coffeeread:
Good thing we have this 'controversy room'! Man this subject could go all over the place!

I never knew that about Jws until we got married, and my husband total me one day they were against 'BJs' and I jokingly said that's just cause they don't get any!

Anyways, sex can be such a hard thing and many people do have sex problems and some have leanings to fring things which I think is because of the world. Sometimes people themselves are not at peace with thier own sexual behaviors. Just as our eating habits can get out of control so can anything else we do. That being said I like the scripture that talks about some "forbidding to marry' it's the same vain, trying to control other people in the most personal of ways.
To be Christians is to find our own self control and have a sense of what that is for us.

Digging
Hi all :)

Most of the WT's dotty and intrusive thinking is due to their attempt to decide what is clean or unclean in sexual relations. In trying to help couples from straying into unclean homosexual sex, they try to decide for Witnesses what is acceptable and not acceptable. Consider Lev 18:22 -

And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

Notice that this scripture, or any in the bible, does not describe in detail how a man ought to lie down with a woman. Jehovah leaves it up to each couple.

If only the Governing Body did the same!

Londoner

Londoner Wrote:
Hi all :)

Most of the WT's dotty and intrusive thinking is due to their attempt to decide what is clean or unclean in sexual relations. In trying to help couples from straying into unclean homosexual sex, they try to decide for Witnesses what is acceptable and not acceptable. Consider Lev 18:22 -

And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

Notice that this scripture, or any in the bible, does not describe in detail how a man ought to lie down with a woman. Jehovah leaves it up to each couple.

If only the Governing Body did the same!

Londoner


Straight people don`t normally have a problem with straying into gay sex unless one of them is gay to begin with, in which case they should not have got married to someone of the opposite sex. Often the reason they do is because of some kind of outside pressure, like religious pressure for instance.

A related scripture to Leviticus 18:22 does give a clue about not how sex should function between a couple in terms of the mechanics but regarding the over all context.

Lev 20:13 If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

In Hebrew this verse is very revealing because the first Hebrew word rendered man is not the same word as the second Hebrew word rendered man or mankind.

ואישׁ376 a man אשׁר834 If ישׁכב7901 also lie את854 with זכר2145 mankind, משׁכבי4904 as he lieth אשׁה802 with a woman, תועבה8441 an abomination: עשׂו6213 of them have committed שׁניהם8147 both מות4191 they shall surely be put to death; יומתו4191 they shall surely be put to death; דמיהם׃1818

So this verse is not a blanket statement regarding what all men should not do with all other men, else the same Hebrew word would be used in both instances. Rather its saying than all men should not lie sexually with a certain specific type or class of men as opposed to all men. So if women were also part of such a class it would for the same reason be wrong for a man to sleep with a women for that reason. What is this class? In turns out that the class is one of ritual, like a male priest or a male connected with some religious rite either Jewish or pagan. Hence idolatry is paralleled with adulatory. The reason for this is because in Egypt and Canaan male prostitutes and priests had sex with other men and women for that matter, in order to bless the fertility of the land of that man who was having sex with the male or female priest. With this in mind one can see that no interference with the mechanics of a couples sex life was intended, but rather it was a warning against idolatry. It was not a law intended to keep straight Jewish couples from practising so called gay sex or worrying about what constituted gay sex practices. If it were the Hebrew word for man would have been the same in both instances but it wasn't and the type of man not to have sex with was very specific, namely any within the context of religious rights. Other than superstition and idolatry religion should should stay out of the bedroom.

Seraphim Wrote:

Londoner Wrote:
Hi all :)

Most of the WT's dotty and intrusive thinking is due to their attempt to decide what is clean or unclean in sexual relations. In trying to help couples from straying into unclean homosexual sex, they try to decide for Witnesses what is acceptable and not acceptable. Consider Lev 18:22 -

And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a woman. It is a detestable thing.

Notice that this scripture, or any in the bible, does not describe in detail how a man ought to lie down with a woman. Jehovah leaves it up to each couple.

If only the Governing Body did the same!

Londoner


Straight people don`t normally have a problem with straying into gay sex unless one of them is gay to begin with, in which case they should not have got married to someone of the opposite sex. Often the reason they do is because of some kind of outside pressure, like religious pressure for instance.

A related scripture to Leviticus 18:22 does give a clue about not how sex should function between a couple in terms of the mechanics but regarding the over all context.

Lev 20:13 If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

In Hebrew this verse is very revealing because the first Hebrew word rendered man is not the same word as the second Hebrew word rendered man or mankind.

ואישׁ376 a man אשׁר834 If ישׁכב7901 also lie את854 with זכר2145 mankind, משׁכבי4904 as he lieth אשׁה802 with a woman, תועבה8441 an abomination: עשׂו6213 of them have committed שׁניהם8147 both מות4191 they shall surely be put to death; יומתו4191 they shall surely be put to death; דמיהם׃1818

So this verse is not a blanket statement regarding what all men should not do with all other men, else the same Hebrew word would be used in both instances. Rather its saying than all men should not lie sexually with a certain specific type or class of men as opposed to all men. So if women were also part of such a class it would for the same reason be wrong for a man to sleep with a women for that reason. What is this class? In turns out that the class is one of ritual, like a male priest or a male connected with some religious rite either Jewish or pagan. Hence idolatry is paralleled with adulatory. The reason for this is because in Egypt and Canaan male prostitutes and priests had sex with other men and women for that matter, in order to bless the fertility of the land of that man who was having sex with the male or female priest. With this in mind one can see that no interference with the mechanics of a couples sex life was intended, but rather it was a warning against idolatry. It was not a law intended to keep straight Jewish couples from practising so called gay sex or worrying about what constituted gay sex practices. If it were the Hebrew word for man would have been the same in both instances but it wasn't and the type of man not to have sex with was very specific, namely any within the context of religious rights. Other than superstition and idolatry religion should should stay out of the bedroom.



That's news to Jews Brian who know their language better than you.

Indeed Yannis. I guess that might explain why relativity few Jews excepted the gospel.

Seraphim Wrote:
Indeed Yannis. I guess that might explain why relativity few Jews excepted the gospel.


I dont think that had anything to do with language.

Well my understanding is that language defines how a culture thinks more than perhaps anything else. Anyhow im sure we both agree that stoning children to death for disrespect is no longer kosher so its not very valid as a point anyhow.
Hi Brian!
I'm trying to understand this.
Are you saying that (a man-376), that is any man, should not have sex with (man kind-2145), which obviously includes women, because in this case, the (man kind), means temple prostitutes, either male or female?
Brian

re: "Rather its saying than all men should not lie sexually with a certain specific type or class of men as opposed to all men."

Please reflect on the scripture: "They have committed a violation of what is natural" (Leviticus 20:10 - 12) This scripture, imo, most naturally, also applies to previous examples of impropriety.

Are you teaching/promoting men with men (sexually) and women with women (sexually) is natural?

(For example: Imo, the nature of some sicknesses and conditions, mental and emotional, cannot be viewed accurately by the sufferer. The psychopath, for example does not/cannot perceive reality as was intended by our heavenly Father. The human family was created, (imo, not a product of evolution), with conscience. The psychopaths defect is lack of conscience as was intended, imo. A view of what is natural, may be distorted, as possibly a result of a disability/handicap/deformity (emotional), that may or may not be adjusted without intervention by our loving Father through our merciful Shepherd Jesus Christ.)

:coffeeread:

Seraphim Wrote:
Indeed Yannis. I guess that might explain why relativity few Jews excepted the gospel.


LOL! Now thats a funny one....quick and witty! Hahaha! :friends:

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