Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi all ... :hibye:

I thought that this question might be good for discussing perhaps ... :confused::giverose:

It is not to start a controversy nor put Paul down or anything ... just something that someone might have come across and had a solid scriptural answer for ... :blush:

Is it contradictory ...? Or is there a good answer to be given ...?

This scripture by the apostle Paul clearly says ...

Heb. 10:26 ...

26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

This seems to be in harmony with the words at James 4:17 ...

Therefore, if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.

The Greek word for 'willfully' is ...

G1596 ἑκουσίως

hekousiōs hek-oo-see'-oce

Adverb from the same as G1595; voluntarily: - wilfully, willingly.

So how does the above verses then apply to the apostle Paul himself when he clearly says he 'practices sin' ...?:dontknow::thinking:

Romans 7:19,20 ...

19 For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, now, what I do not wish is what I do, the one working it out is no longer I, but the sin dwelling in me.

Interestingly I noted that a lot of other Bible translations use a different word other than 'bad' ... they use 'evil' ... :confused::shocked:

The Greek word for 'bad' as used in the NWT is ...

G2556 κακός

kakos kak-os'

Apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically such; whereas G4190 properly refers to effects), that is, (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious: - bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.

The Greek word for 'practice' is ...

G4238 πράσσω

prassō pras'-so

A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

One would have to say the Paul certained had 'received accurate knowledge' since he writes that he spoke with Jesus personally ...

So the questions that could come up might be ...

Does the scripture about 'practicing sin' not apply to Paul in some way?:thinking:

Are these verses an attempt to 'excuse' whatever 'bad' he was doing? :huh:
Are they contradictory from the other verses above?:dontknow:

Any thoughts ...? :bulb:

Luv as always BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi sis BR!


To me, the resolution is that Hebrews is talking about the intention and will of a person to purposefully sin - whereas Romans is talking about sin that one does but does not want to do. Paul is clear when he says the bad he does not wish is what he does.

So to me, the difference comes down to ones Motivation - their Intention.

I dont think Hebrews applies to Paul, nor to anyone else in the same situation (which is most people)...

:D:D:D

Hey beau ... :hibye:

I was thinking along those same lines as well ... :love::thinking:

Intent means a lot doesn't it!

Should I or shouldn't I ... that is the question ... :confused:

This tendency toward doing repeated sinning is certainly showing the forgiving of our God ... and that Jesus spoke about when he said up to 77 times forgiving our brother ... :hug:

However, could one agrue that because Paul KNEW he was doing wrong ... and yet DID IT ANYWAY show that he was being WILLFULL in spite of not wanting to ...? :dontknow:

I think that perhaps the scripture at Matthew 26:41 may come into play perhaps ...:thinking::read:

41 Keep on the watch and pray continually, that YOU may not enter into temptation. The spirit, of course, is eager, but the flesh is weak.”

To me this scripture truly shows that our God and his 'know well the formation of us' ... that we may WANT to do what is 'right' and 'good' ... but our inherited imperfection stalks us at every opportunity! :(

That being said of course, may we NOT USE this 'imperfection' of ours as an 'excuse' to continue to do something we know is wrong ...

I think it may be the EFFORT we put forth to NOT DO WRONGDOING that is important rather than to just weakly give in without trying ...

We have to 'fight' to do what is right ... and even if we fail at times ... our Father and his Son will pick us up if we want them to!:friends:

Thanks for commenting ... :giverose:

Luv as always from 'auntie' BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

br,

Hebrews Chapter 10 is a very significant scripture.

Its speaks to the new covenant, and baptism, the new temple, all the things that Jesus Christ died for.

I think if a person does not take any of that seriously then the things Jesus Christ died for will be alternatively considered trivial and unimportant.

The things that Jesus Christ died for should make a huge and measurable difference in a persons day to day life.

If it does, the blessings are enormous.

If it doesn't, the consequences are terrible.

Sure, anyone can be baptised.

I think John the Baptist summed up the requirements and consequences of baptism when he addressed the Pharisees:

Matthew 3:7-12
When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “YOU offspring of vipers, who has intimated to YOU to flee from the coming wrath? 8 So then produce fruit that befits repentance; 9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”


I personally believe that both the wheat and the chaff are baptised into the new covenant. (aka Christians)

The scripture you concerned yourself with in Hebrews Chapter 10:

Heb. 10:26
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,


Identifies the chaff.



In Christ

abe

Great to see you posting sis! :friends:

How do these fit into the overall theme?

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 2 - Christ Is Our Advocate - 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Love to all, Willa :peace:

Willa,

Yes, there is also this scripture:

Matthew 12:31-32
“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.


I do think however, that if a person uses this scripture as an excuse to sin then it is not going to go well with them.

Probably a good idea to read what Jesus Christ says in the next verse:


Matthew 12:33-37
“Either YOU people make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten; for by its fruit the tree is known. 34 Offspring of vipers, how can YOU speak good things, when YOU are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned



In Christ


abe

Willa,

This scripture says that a sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.


Matthew 12:31-32
“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.


It is a good idea to spend time thinking about what a sin against the Holy Spirit is.

I do think there is a scriptural example of a sin against the Holy Spirit which can be used as a yardstick to measure what Jesus Christ meant by this:


Acts 5:1-5
However, a certain man, An·a·ni´as by name, together with Sap·phi´ra his wife, sold a possession 2 and secretly held back some of the price, his wife also knowing about it, and he brought just a part and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said: “An·a·ni´as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? 4 As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God.” 5 On hearing these words An·a·ni´as fell down and expired.


An·a·ni´as was not forgiven.



In Christ

abe

hi abe,

do you think this means he will not receive a resurrection?

wolfie,

I am not certain.

What do you think?


In Christ

abe

Just personally Abe I believe everyone receives a resurrection. I have wondered before if Ananias died of fright. I think I would if those words were ever said to me.

wolfie,

Yes, I think it sends a very strong message about what Jesus Christs real expectations are.

He can read hearts and from the account it appears that the Apostle Peter can too.

The new Christians at that time appeared to get the message:

Acts 5:10-11
Consequently great fear came over the whole congregation and over all those hearing about these things.


As regards receiving a ressurection into the new system Jesus Christs words about sinning against the Holy Spirit should be considered:

but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

Just reading that scripture frightens me.

It speaks to the extent that Christians will be judged.

What Jesus Christ died for is not a thing that can be treated with any kind of indifference by Christians.

Ananias sinned against the Holy Spirit.

I think Ananias found out the hard way about what Hebrews Chapter 10 really means:

Heb. 10:26
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,



In Christ

abe