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I wanted to say a few words about how the Christians of this forum are united on what we might call the "Inclusive Principle," and how I think that's a good thing.

There are two main groups of Christians in this world, and they are not Catholics and Protestants. That's an old dichotomy that seems to have been overtaken by a new one. Now the Christian congregation is divided between Exclusive and Inclusive Christians (sometimes referred to as Conservative and Liberal).

All of us have come from a religious group that operated on the exclusive principle, and yet now we all are embracing the inclusive principle. This we all hold in common.

The inclusive system embraces a diversity of opinion within the Christian brother/sisterhood and sees no threat to the cause of unity in this.

The exclusive system operates so as to deny Christian fellowship, the Christian name, and all Christian privileges to anybody who differs from the group beyond a certain point, and this is a point that the authority figures of the group assume the right to fix for themselves and alter at their convenience.

This is the way JW's operate, but it would be wrong to charge this system on any one denomination. Christians of several denominations, agreeing together in what are termed "fundamentals," have come into this system.

Christians have always been eager to have every person think as he pleases, as long as he pleases to think the same as they do. And this, especially when the clergy have been called in to decide the question, has commonly been the extent of their ideas of religious liberty. Ha!

Every denomination has preached up just enough liberality to answer its own purposes--in other words, just enough to indulge its own deviations from the traditional faith. But any further than this, almost every denomination has agreed, no one should go. How consistent is this? All have allowed a certain latitude of thinking, but if anyone should go beyond this, even though it's in the exercise of the same principle of freedom, he is to be regarded and treated as an apostate from the religion.

Acting on this principle, the Catholics began the exclusive system among Christians. They allowed a certain latitude of thinking to the members of their church, but fixed a mark, beyond which if any one went, he was to be regarded and treated as an apostate from Christianity.

The Protestants complained that this was unfair while they were suffering under it, but no sooner had they become established as an independent church, than they adopted the same principles themselves! And each Protestant denomination, as it fell away from the main body, received precisely the same treatment from other Protestants as they got from the Catholics.

The Bible students, for example, when they began, insisted on freedom of thought, so that they could differ from other denominations. But then, as they became JW's, they denied that freedom to their own members. Even today, JW's argue that it is good and right to take issue with the beliefs of the mainstream church, but not to take issue with their own beliefs!

Now how is the exclusive system defended?

It is agreed on all sides that a certain latitude of thinking must be expected and allowed among Christians, but the exclusionists say that limits are to be set, and we are not to be permitted to cross them. Furthermore, the leaders are vested with authority to set these limits and alter them at pleasure.

Their whole defense actually hinges on the question of their possessing the authority to do this.

To be sure, a Catholic may deny that I am a Catholic, a Baptist may deny that I am a Baptist, a Methodist may deny that I am a Methodist, a JW may deny that I am a JW, and there is nothing wrong with that. If I want to be part of a denomination, they have every right to set their own rules. But if any denomination or any number of denominations presume to deny that I am a Christian, this is doing what they have no right to do.

And the reason is obvious. The fact whether I am a Christian or not does not depend on my following the commonly received standards of any denomination, but on my following the ways of Jesus. And when we come to applying the Bible as a standard, the case is different, because this is a standard that was not framed by any of the contending denominations. It was framed by someone else, and none of them can set up any claim to authority in interpreting and applying it.

You (a hypothetical person), as belonging to one denomination, may say of me, as belonging to another, that I differ greatly from you in the interpretation of the Bible. But you cannot say that my interpretation is false, because this is a point that you are not competent to decide. You may say that I preach a different gospel from that which you preach, but you cannot say that I preach another gospel from that which Christ and his apostles preached, because this involves a question that you are not competent to decide. I differ from you, it is true, but not more than you differ from me.

Now someone could argue that there must be some doctrines essential to Christianity, necessary to make it what it is, and without which it would not be what it is, but something else, not Christianity. Omit any of these doctrines, it might be said, and what remains will not be Christianity, and those who embrace it will not be Christians.

Fine. Nobody denies that Christianity, as a system of religious instruction, has its essential and fundamental doctrines, which are necessary to make it what it is. But the question arises, who is to determine what these essential doctrines are? The Bible talks of many subjects and teaches many things, some hard to understand. Does the Bible separate the essentials from the non-essentials? Not that I can see.

But, it may be said, the doctrines that all the denominations pronounce fundamental must be so.

All what denominations? If by "all the denominations" are meant all the denominations in the world, and all Christians in the world, then fine. But then how could anyone be an exclusionist? There would be no ground for exclusion, so far as everyone agrees.

But if one means that only a certain number of denominations should be able to determine the fundamentals, I would ask on what ground these denominations arrogate to themselves the authority to decide, leaving out all the others? Just because several denominations have combined their authority doesn't remove the problem. Where did they get their authority from?

People make mistakes, even religious authorities. And the obvious fact seems to be strangely overlooked that human imperfection and error applies not only to judgment concerning non-fundamentals, but to fundamentals too.

It is up to each person to determine what are the essentials or fundamentals for himself. I cannot in good conscience reject what I myself regard as essential and fundamental doctrines of Christianity, and I cannot embrace as fundamental what I regard as not. And we may disagree on this. Well then, what should be done? Well, you must convince me that I am wrong, if you can, but, pending this controversy, you must remember that you are only one party in the disagreement, and not a party and umpire too. Until you convince me that I am wrong, you cannot take it for granted in your conduct toward me that I am wrong, because God has not decided the case yet, and judgment is still pending.

The exclusionist might say that he does not assume the right of deciding this point on authority, but merely as a matter of opinion and sincere conviction. He will say that, in his opinion, I have renounced essentials of Christianity and therefore am no Christian. To deny him the right to express his opinion in that matter would be to destroy his own religious freedom. Isn't this a free country? Can't a person hold and avow his honest convictions?

Certainly he may, but that doesn’t automatically make it right or good. When people engage in hate speech, they have every right to do so under law. But is it morally or ethically right for them to do it?

But waiving this point, I deny the fact itself, on which the whole argument is based. It is not true that the supporters of the exclusive principle avow and advocate what they term fundamentals, as mere matters of opinion. Doctrines of minor importance they will allow to be regarded in this light and therefore make them open to discussion. But when they come to speak of doctrines they think are essential and fundamental, their tone and manner are different, and they speak of them, not as mere matters of opinion, but as established truths, which no one is at liberty to reject, or even to doubt. They not only advance what they consider fundamental doctrines as established truths, but proceed immediately to act on them as if established truths.

The charge against exclusionists is not that they hold certain opinions, but that they take up these opinions and advance them as established truths, and act on them as such. And they do this when they know that the feelings, reputation, and substantial interests of others are endangered or seriously injured thereby. The charge is that, forgetting their human imperfection, they act towards others precisely as if they thought themselves infallible.

I may think that my neighbor is wrong about something, and on the strength of my personal opinion I may deny him anything that I have the right to deny him (things under my authority or at my disposal). But it will hardly be pretended that the Christian name and privileges are my own and at my disposal. I thus have no right to deny him these things.

Similarly, I may think my neighbor has committed a crime and is a dangerous member of the community, and on the strength of this opinion I may take him to court. But until the judge passes sentence, I cannot denounce this person publicly as if he has truly committed the crime. He is innocent until proven guilty. I myself commit a crime and may be sued if I slander him before the court reaches a verdict. Similarly, until God shows me to be right in the matter of Christian doctrine, I cannot slander my fellow.

"Who are you that judges another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls" (Rom. 14:4).

In our dreams of a perfect Christian, we always make this person strict towards himself and tolerant toward others. This is Liberal/Inclusive Christianity. The love that the gospel tells us to have "bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things" (1 Cor. 13:7). "And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, if I don't have love, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:2). Now that's the way to be. And I am happy to say that this forum provides a good example of this sort of Christianity.
Hi Donbodo,

I enjoyed reading the essay you posted above and agree with so much of it. One of the first things I noticed when I moved to the West (western world) was how quick Christians denounced their brethren.

Many denominations view themseleves as the only true Christians and are quick to condemn others not following their path. Even the way they identify themselves, a Catholic, Baptist, Jehovah's Witness instead of a Christian. IMHO this should be the label we identify with first. A Christian first of the x sect. Aren't all trying to be followers of Christ? In this, we are united in this effort although our means differ.

But exclusiveness allows those in charge power and control. For the adherents it allows the feeling of being special, being right, possessing something that others lack. These are heady feelings that many might not be willing to relinquesh and just be a part of the crowd.

Thank you for posting this. :love::friends:

Salaam, Lou :hibye::coffeeread:
Very Good Don,

As time has gone by and my heart and mind has grown freer, I've come to see many 'doctrine' as NOT salvation issues. However what I've also seen is how the exclusive thinking TRIES to empower thier pet doctrines by trying to transform their doctrine into salvation issues.

In my bible reading it seems the bible is more clear about acceptable and unacceptable phycial behavior than concepts of doctrine.

It also seems that as we grow in trusting faith, we begin to trust God will lead us where we need to go, AND he will also lead our brother!

Digging
hey dig,

that "physical behavior" thing u mentioned is indeed curious..

i am not sure but if we look at the jew's "isreal's flesh" are they not just living? they try to follow the guidlines that have been set. but they keep in expectation of the king..
yes they are following their own added rules due to men. but in general they seem to look at God's ways as a way to live life now.!

I am not an expert on them so pls forgive me if this is not their veiw. it just seems to be from the few I have met.. and worked with..

My point is Jesus Good news was .... drum roll.

I am giving my personal view...  
This is what u strive for here and now. period. and don't worry about the rest cause I have saved you from yourselves... you will be with me in paradise. as he said to the man on the cross..
Done deal wrok on yourselves in this dieing world, give it "your all"
Do not look at other and judge what they do as to the measure for you.
Live life make mistakes, But do so within the framework that he had left.. and all will eventually work it's way out. "Seek first the kingdom and all other things will be given to you"

added the word "not" by look at other. as I just reread this.
Nice, Don! I think you have nailed the spirit of the world.

This is a beautiful place.

gus
Hi Donbodo,

Very well said, very agreeable to the soul too.

‘The inclusive system embraces a diversity of opinion within the Christian brother/sisterhood and sees no threat to the cause of unity in this.’

The only way to be truly free is to allow our will, our mind, to be empowered by Jesus Christ. John 8:31-32.

Tessa
‘The inclusive system embraces a diversity of opinion within the Christian brother/sisterhood and sees no threat to the cause of unity in this.’
The only way to be truly free is to allow our will, our mind, to be empowered by Jesus Christ.


I think that's an excellent point, Tessa. I can remember as a child being afraid of my religion and my God. It didn't change much in adulthood. It's almost as if I sought out something even more fearful. Logically, "no hell" appealed to me. Realistically, my hell was the fear I carried with me everyday. The darkness was my own...and exclusive religion justified it.

Dare the darkness - find the light.

gus
Hi Gus,

The only thing I fear is myself in my weakness as a human being. :thinking:

However, we have help by strength of the holy spirit.


Tessa
I think it's a good idea to return to this topic from time to time, as inclusiveness is the basis of how this forum operates.

My thoughts on this today have to do with things that have been said recently suggesting that it is the responsibility of Christians to protect other Christians from wrong religious views.

Here on this board we often get into discussions on many Bible topics--some of them deep, some not so deep. What is our motivation in defending our own opinions? If it is simply to explain to others why we feel or think the way we do, this seems harmless to me, as long as it is done in a loving way. It is a sharing of ideas, and may even serve to strengthen someone else's faith, or help them to discard an unsupported presupposition they may have had. Even if not, it helps us to understand one another and therefore become closer to one another. (After all, knowledge of others tends to dissipate prejudice.)

However, what if we come at it from a different angle? What if we think that we, as fulfilling some presumed Christian obligation, must "correct" those who err and protect the faith from people we presume to be dangerous to the flock because of their dangerous views? What if that is our motivation for involvement in discussion? Is this spiritually healthy or harmful?

One thing we should always keep in mind is that people differ in opinions as much as in features. No two minds are perfectly in unity with one another on their religious thoughts. The shades of belief are infinitely diversified.

And yet knowing this, every person thinks he is right and the other person is wrong. Every person is prone to magnify the importance of his own peculiar ideas, and to discover danger in the peculiar ideas of others. This is human nature. Every person is partial to his own opinions, because they are his own, and his pride is wounded by contradiction.

We should remember this about ourselves, shouldn't we?

Another important consideration is that, if we try to discourage people from thinking too far beyond what we personally believe, this will subvert free inquiry into the Scriptures. As soon as there is an atmosphere in which it is made to seem that a certain belief is a mark of depravity, the freedom to interpret the Scriptures is gone. Unfortunately, there are still some here who try to create this atmosphere. It is one thing to say that all here are free to examine the Scriptures for themselves and come up with their own answers, but it means nothing if a person's character or Christianity is assaulted when he or she comes up with answers that other people don't like. This kind of "freedom" is actually more irritating than bondage to the Watchtower, because it talks to us courteously as friends and brothers, while at the same time warns us to see things a certain way, or else.

But it might be said, "Didn't the apostle Paul denounce people who declared good news 'beyond what you accepted'" (Gal 1:8)? Shouldn't we follow his example? Don't Christians have a responsibility to bear witness against opinions that are subversive of the good news and dangerous to people's eternal interests?

Absolutely. But the question is: What is the good news? Only by knowing the good news can we determine whether someone is going beyond it.

The expression ευαγγέλιον "gospel" was used by Paul even before the written Gospels appeared (1 Corinthians 15:1). Paul characterized it in the simplest terms (15:3–8):

...that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried; and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures; And that he was seen of Cephas; then of the Twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once: of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some have fallen asleep. After that he was seen of James, then of all the apostles. Last of all, he was seen of me also, as one born out of due time.

The written gospels emphasize the same thing--the death and resurrection of Jesus, and they also include the ministry of Jesus as part of the good news.

But I think Paul sums it up very clearly when he says:

"For if you publicly declare that 'word in your own mouth,' that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom 10:9).

Notice how simple the good news actually is. This is what we, as Christians believe. God sent his Son to teach us the way, he died and was resurrected, and we follow him as our Lord. That's it. The good news is not the whole body of Christian doctrine, everything from Adam to Armageddon. In fact, all that stuff would fall into the category Paul described as "beyond what you accepted."

It is important, therefore, not to insist that people believe beyond this good news, or else we would be one of those Paul denounced.

One thing we have to get straight. There is the knowledge that we need to know (the good news), and there is additional study of the Bible. Religious leaders and Bible scholars tend to work in the second category. At least the latter realize it's not part of "necessary" belief. I hope we here do too.

Remember that the glue that holds the Christian congregation together is not uniformity of belief. It is the love, the "perfect bond of union" (Col. 3:14) and "the uniting bond of peace" (Eph. 4:3), both of which are spoken of by the apostle Paul.

One thing we may not have taken due note of is that the early Christians did not agree on everything. Paul wrote letters to the Corinthians to argue against some in the congregation (elders too, apparently) who thought that believers had already experienced the resurrection. He wrote his letter to the Galatians to argue against Christians who believed that following the Jewish Torah was necessary for Christians. Paul says nothing about disfellowshipping these people. He doesn't say they are not Christian.

Now yes, he does debate with them. But he understands that he is in the realm beyond the good news, so his debating with them should not be seen as a defense of the good news itself, but only as a debate over other theological matters, which would have no bearing on their salvation. Nowhere does it say that he did not think of these Corinthians or Galatians as brothers.

There are a few scriptures that people have used to show that proper belief is necessary even beyond the basics.

“For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works” (2 John 5-11).

Here counsel is given about the antichrist. This is said to be all persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. It is then said that everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. And these persons are not to be greeted by Christians or they will be a sharer in his or her wicked works.

But it would be a serious misapplication of John's letter to label a person an “antichrist,” because of their disagreeing in areas of biblical interpretation where the Bible is open to interpretation. The teaching of “Jesus coming in the flesh” is a basic part of the good news.

In his letters to Timothy, Paul mentions an instance where persons were to be "handed over to Satan" (i.e., put out of the congregation) for acts he calls "blasphemy" (1 Tim. 1:20). Later Paul says that these ones "deviated from the truth, saying the resurrection has already occurred" (2 Tim. 2:18). Perhaps a case could be made that this set a precedent for disfellowshipping any persons who disagree with established doctrine. However, it is clear that Hymenaeus' and Philetus' actions involved far more than simple disagreement about the resurrection. They were handed over to Satan for "blasphemy."

Paul says that they had done three things: 1) blasphemed, 2) deviated from the truth by saying the resurrection already occurred, and 3) subverted the faith of some. Now some people might claim that these three things are connected, that their teaching about the resurrection was a blasphemy and subverted people's faith. But I would suggest that these are three separate issues. They not only deviated from the truth, but they also blasphemed and subverted people's faith.

In 2 Timothy, it also sounds as if these men are still in the congregation.

Another scripture used to justify the disfellowshipping of those with contrary views is Titus 3:10-11:

“As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned.”

Here, Titus is instructed to reject those in the congregation who are promoting a sect, but only after admonishing them two times. But what does it mean to “promote a sect”? Does it mean to teach something at variance with what others believe? I would say the shoe goes on the other foot. Those who condemn other Christians for wrong belief are promoting a sect. Promoting a sect is putting theology and doctrinal interpretations above love, forgiveness and mercy. True Christian freedom contains the allowance of personal beliefs on all doctrinal interpretations that do not hurt someone else or cause a person to disobey God’s moral commandments. Enforcing the theology of a particular religious council would instead be promoting a sect and should be avoided at all costs.

So what does all this tell us? It tell us that we are free to defend our views and interpretations of Scripture, but we are not to see this as a Christian responsibility or "mission." We should acknowledge that the defense of our views is merely a personal endeavor, and has nothing to do with "sticking up for God."

It might be pointed out that, in 1 Peter 3:15, all Christians are encouraged to be ready to make a "defense" for the reason of their hope in Christ. The word "defense" is a translation of the Greek word apologia, which means "a speech in defense of what one has done, or of truth which one believes." The formal use of this word is used by Paul in Acts 22:1 and 1 Corinthians 9:3. It appears that only the first use of apologetic speech is evident in the New Testament.

The context of Peter’s statement is a message of comfort for those being persecuted. His use of the word apologia likely then refers to a formal defense before the authorities. Nevertheless his words have been used to promote the idea of using argument to establish the actual truth of Christian beliefs. It has become customary, even today when Christianity is no longer a crime, to make a defense of the truth of Christian beliefs. But this is not what Peter seems to mean. The defenses given by the apostles to the authorities were not attempts to convince the authorities that Christian beliefs were true. Their aim was merely to defend Christianity against charges that had been brought against it.

IMO, the "purity of the congregation" can never be harmed by admitting to Christian fellowship people who follow Jesus as their leader. On the other hand, it will suffer severely from that narrow-minded and uncharitable spirit that has condemned people for imagined errors.

We have no right as individuals, or in an associated capacity, to "bear witness" against "incorrect" opinions by branding people with uncomplimentary epithets or by warning people not to listen to such ones. This is the fashionable mode of "bearing witness," and it is a weapon which will always be most successful in the hands of the proud, the positive, and overbearing, who are the most impatient of contradiction, and have least regard to the rights of their brothers.

donbodo Wrote:
True Christian freedom contains the allowance of personal beliefs on all doctrinal interpretations that do not hurt someone else or cause a person to disobey God’s moral commandments.


...well said. That is the deeper point of my tag line. God is about growth and freedom; man is about boundaries and cages.

Justicia

Hi donbodo

Great subject :thumbup:

I'd agree with the general thrust of your argument, although I'd say that even the apostles were exclusionist to a certain extent.

For example, the apostle John said:

"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist–he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22,23)

Also:

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work." (2 John 7-11)

To me, that's pretty strong exclusionary language. However, it seems that John was specifically talking about people who claimed to be Christian but that deny Christ came in the flesh.

(Sadly, this scripture has been used by JWs as an excuse for not talking to anyone they consider apostate - while John was using it specifically of antichrists, namely, those who denied the Father and the Son.)

So it would appear there are valid reasons for being exclusionary when someone claims to be Christian but denies that Jesus is the Christ, and having come in the flesh.

However, in later centuries, the "church" overstepped its bounds by requiring other doctrines from Christians, such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, etc.

And, as you say, Protestant denominations, and JWs, basically followed suit.
Hi Interpretum,

Yes, I agree with you, but I see John's words as condemning those who deny part of the good news. The good news includes the idea that Jesus is the Christ, and that he came in the flesh.

So yes, if someone denies a part of the good news, this is reason to question his Christianity. But if he disagrees in other matters, we cannot reject him as a brother, nor speak to him as if he is not.
double post, tried to preivew for once.. :D
Just to add to the point, anything else would be judging, IF they explicitly deny Jesus then it is safe to say they are not christs followers. "YET"

and the rest is up to the one in the judgements seat, "for their will be those who say "when did we see you naked and not cloth you" or thisty and not offer you a drink" he will tell them "the self proclaimed christians" that he never new them.

But we cannot read hearts so we are still ok. no demerits in LOVE. just be the best christian we can be that is if we claim to be one.
I have come across many people that put me personaly to shame as a christian. Just by the way they live. and I thank GOD for having them cross my path so that I may learn.
I don't know. Inclusionary Christianity has been roundly condemned by the watchtower and others as "interfaith." I can remember when any and all interfaith endeavors were crucified in the pages of the watchtower magazine. What's new? People who are insecure about their faith are just like folks who are insecure about anything: always on the attack, looking for some point of weakness in others that can be exploited...even if they have to make it up. And that, they say, is Christianity. If such religion would only measure from the top-down, they would be humbled at the great chasm that exists between themselves and the king of the kingdom, their exemplar, their model. No other comparison matters.

People being as they are, however, almost ensures that they will compare themselves to one-another. It is a sure sign of a wicked and faithless and extremely immature and insecure generation when children's games are played in lieu of true worship. If people only realized the great distance that they need to travel, they would be less inclined to waste what's left of their precious time on silly things such as doctrinal differences.

The way I see it is: everything you need to know, you learn in the first 5 minutes of NT Bible study. The rest of your life is spent trying to reconcile things that don't matter...and the thousand years will be spent trying to come to terms with yourself and unlearn your prejudices.

gus
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