Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

It seems we have gathered most of the ingredients, if more emerge they can be added to the list as we go. Now it’s time to examine the ingredients one by one, in sequence please, I will start with the first one on the list (see below)

BTG Mystery Cake bake off: take 2
Ingredients:
1. The great harlot as she appears at her judgment (Rev 17:1)[
2. Sits on many waters (Rev 17:1)
3. Commits harlotry with kings of the earth (17:2)
4. Intoxicates the dwellers of the earth (17:2)
5. She is in the wilderness (17:3)
6. Is a woman (Rev 17:3)
7. She sits up a scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy
8. She wears purple and scarlet gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls (17:4)
9. Has a golden cup of disgusting things of her harlotry. (17:4)
10. Upon her forehead has a name written: Mystery Babylon the Great, mother of the harlots and abominations of the earth (17:5).
11. Is intoxicated with the blood of the holy ones and the witnesses of Jesus. (Rev 17:6)
12. The waters where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages (17:15)
13. The horns of the beast she rides detest her and will desolate her (17:16)
14. The woman is a great city having a kingdom over the kings of the earth (17:18)
15. She falls, she has become a home for demons and a prison of unclean spirits, and unclean detested birds. (Rev 18:2)
16. She give the rage of her wine of harlotry to the nations and the kings of the earth (18:3)
17. God's people called to "come out of her, my people". (Rev 18:4)
18. In her heart, she sits as queen and thinks she'll never see mourning. (Rev 18:7)
19. Her judgment arrives in one hour. (Rev 18:10)
20. A major consumer (see verses) including bodies & souls. (Rev 18:11-13)
21. Traveling merchants become rich because of her. (Rev 18:15,16)
22. She herself is rich. (Rev 18:17)
23. Ship captains became rich because of her. (Rev 18:17-19)
24. God judges case of heaven, holy ones, apostles and prophets against her.(18:20)
25. Hurled down like a millstone into the sea, never to be found again. (18:21)
26. Has singers, craftsmen and marriage etc. within her. (18:22,23)
27. Her merchants were the great men of the earth (18:23)
28. Practices farmakia/soceries/spirit practices (18:23)
29. Misled all the nations (18:23)
30. Blood of prophets, holy ones and all, found in her. (18:24)
31. Thrown down before marriage of the Lamb. (Rev19)

1. The great harlot as she appears at her judgment (Rev 17:1)
As to the harlot herself, since she is to be fully discussed under ingredient 3, suffice to say she is referred to as a harlot because she relies on powerful humans for protection and guidance in place of God. Noteworthy in this verse is that it gives us the time period for what follows, which is detailed account of her during the blast of the seventh trumpet—it may contain retrospective details but in the main it is description of her as she is just prior to her fall.

Compare:
Rev 17:1 ...And came one of the seven angels of the ones have the seven bowls and he spoke with me saying, come I will show you the judgment of the great harlot...

That her judgment is during the blast of the seventh trumpet at the end of the second woe is supported by 11:14, 15, 18 and 14: 6-8. Also the angel describing her is one of the seven angels with the bowls which appear during the seventh trumpet (15:7; 16:1).

This same period is spoken of as a period of endurance for the holy ones (those who are not misled by the two horned beast [13:14] and do not succumbed to its blandishments [13:4; 14:12, 13]).

Love,
coccus ilicis

2. Sits on many waters (Rev 17:1)

This is first of all a reference to the ancient capital city Babylon, "O woman residing on abounding waters, abundant in treasures, your end has come, the measure of your profit making". (Jer 51:13)

The ancient city Babylon is compared to a harlot woman because of her harlotry with the kings of the earth. Babylon sat on "abounding waters", particularly the Euphrates river, which was diverted by Cyrus in 539AD, bringing the city's dominance of the earth to an end. Ancient Babylon was charged with the blood of "the slain ones of all the earth", as well as "the slain ones of Israel". (Jer 51:49)

Babylon the Great sits on "many waters", which we are told, "mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues". This phrase is also used in Revelation 7:9 to refer to the "great crowd", "out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues".

The difference is, Rev 9 says the great crowd come from ALL nations, while Revelation 17 says Babylon the Great sits on many waters, implying not all waters, or peoples.

If the "many waters" she sits on is symbolic, then we can perhaps conclude that "the river Euphrates" is also symbolic, and represents one particular "river" which is dried up prior to Armageddon. (Rev 16:12) However, we should keep in mind that Babylon's principle defense was the Euphrates, and it was this river that was dried up prior to its overthrow in 539BC.

3. Commits harlotry with kings of the earth (17:2)

The great city "Babylon the Great" has something in common with the ancient capital cities Ninevah, Jerusalem and Babylon.

Ninevah was the capital city of Assyria, and was described by God as a harlot, with an explanation of why:

"Woe to the city of bloodshed. She is all full of deception [and] of robbery. Prey does not depart!There is the sound of [the] whip and the sound of the rattling of [the] wheel, and the dashing horse and the leaping chariot. The mounted horseman, and the flame of [the] sword, and the lightning of [the] spear, and the multitude of slain ones, and the heavy mass of carcasses; and there is no end to the dead bodies. They keep stumbling among their dead bodies; owing to the abundance of the acts of prostitution of the prostitute, attractive with charm, a mistress of sorceries, she who is ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries."(Nahum 3:1-4)

Clearly God viewed the city Ninevah as a harlot, "ensnaring nations". So how exactly was Ninevah a harlot?

The account links her harlotry to her violence and bloodshed. Assyria was a violent empire, constantly engaging in warfare and conquering nations - even conquering the 10 tribes of Israel.

Of course, Jerusalem (the capital of Judah) was also described as a harlot (Ezekiel 16), prostituting herself to the surrounding nations of Egypt, Assyria, Canaan and Chaldea. Jehovah promised to judge her "with the judgments of adulteresses and women shedding blood" (16:38), because of her acts of prostitution, which in her case was linked to her pagan acts, including burning her sons and daughters in the fire (16:20,21).

The capital of the Babylonian empire was also described in a somewhat similar fashion. She was called "Mistress of Kingdoms", but Jehovah was angry with her for her mistreatment of his people.

She was saying in her heart, "I am, and there is nobody else. I shall not sit as a widow, and I shall not know the loss of children." (Isaiah 47:5-8) But Jehovah warned...

"But to you these two things will come suddenly, in one day; loss of children and widowhood. In their complete measure they will come upon you, for the abundance of your sorceries, for the full might of your spells - exceedingly".

So we can see that the city "Babylon the Great" is similar in her behaviour to the capital cities of Assyria, Israel and Babylon, in prostituting herself with the kings of the earth.

4. Intoxicates the dwellers of the earth (17:2)

It was Jehovah himself who used ancient Babylon to cause the nations round about to become drunk:

"Take this cup of the wine of rage out of my hand, and you must make all the nations to whom I am sending you drink it. And they must drink and shake back and forth and act like crazed men because of the sword that I am sending among them." (Jer 25:15,17)

Why is this? Because of their mistreatment of the Jews: "For even they themselves, many nations and great kings, have exploited them as servants; and I will repay them according to their activity and according to the work of their hands." (25:14)

This drunkenness is connected with the sword. Similarly, Babylon the Great causes the inhabitants of the earth to become drunk, and all the nations fall because of her. (Rev 17:3)

She herself is drunk, with the blood of the holy ones. We can see this drunkenness is connected with violence, because that is why she is burned with fire.

True the Babylon of Jeremiah's time is spoken of as ... you who live by many waters rich in treasures... but did the angel have this in mind when he said ...come I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters? By the time John received this vision earthly Babylon was already well past her use-by date.

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Sorry I don't buy this; I think this needs quite a bit more research on how the word harlot/harlotry is used in scripture. Why should a political city state (Babylon) ruled by a king be singled out and branded a harlot in its dealings with other city states similarly ruled by kings, I see no illegitimacy there, if you brand her harlot then all others city states likewise would be harlots as I doubt that she was any better or worse than other city state.

I'm with you here, as the angel explains that the 'many waters' stands for... an international crowd of people (not necessarily all people). Could this have something to do with the water that Satan disgorges out of his mouth to carry off the woman in the wilderness, Rev 12:15, particularly since the harlot is also spoken of as being in the wilderness at the time of her judgment? Again I think more research ought to be done on how water(s) is used scripturally. By the way the Greek word here refers to fresh water (compare Rev 8:8 & 8:10) therefore it is not a reference to the sea of wicked mankind as at Isa 57.

This does infer a connection between the drying of waters in ancient Babylon and BTG at the time of her judgment.

Sorry, I’m not more forthcoming, my mind is blunt and my web browser has been playing up. Perhaps I’m not meant to be doing this at all just now.
Love,
coccus ilicis

Sorry, as I said above, i don't buy this, the rationale is missing. One cannot accuse a rat of rattery for behaving as a rat.

No, I think the only way to get even an inkling of the meaning of the word harlot in Hebrew thought, is to look at the etymology of the word and then to see how it is used in all its occurrences in scripture before drawing any conclusions. That's quite an undertaking, and it's why I had hoped more would join in and contribute; but if the interest isn't there then there’s no point.

Similarly with intoxication. This is widely used in scripture and in almost every case figuratively. I would have thought it has to do with the euphoria, self-confidence and bluster that takes over when one is inebriated. But there a numerous scriptures and again a group effort would be required to bring out the full flavor of its meaning.

Love
coccus ilicis

Further to the above, if we don't do this, or at least make a brave attempt, can we consider ourselves as any less deluded than the WBTS, if like them we cherry pick scriptures to suit a particular scenario?

I don't want to discourage anyone but perhaps the differences of opinion which reign amongst us is as it should be. I have noticed that a clearer understanding or special insight into a scripture seems to parallel an inner cleansing on my part (a clearing away of an old way of behaving or thinking). The insight given at that time is something very special linked to the cleansing, and it is not something readily passed on or explained to another. Have any others experienced this? If so, perhaps that is how Jehovah teaches us, each one at his own pace and in his own time. And all this other spouting we do is just so much hot air.

Love,
coccus ilicis

Hi coccus

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying (or perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my explanation).

I'm not saying Babylon the Great ("BTG") IS Babylon. I'm saying that the angel is drawing upon the characteristics of ancient Babylon.

Babylon the Great is LIKE ancient Babylon in its pride, LIKE ancient Ninevah in its harlotry, and LIKE ancient Tyre with its money-making.

I'm not saying it IS any of those cities.

Fair enough. A good start would be Ninevah, because she is most clearly called a prostitute in Nahum 3. We should investigate precisely WHY she was called a prostitute.

Yes... but you need to be careful of studying words on their own. For example, water is often just water... the stuff we drink. It does not always have a symbolic meaning, even in the Bible. For example, consider the woman at the well, in John 4. At first, she comes to get water (the drinky stuff), but Jesus promises her "living water", which is clearly metaphorical... although she doesn't understand this at first.

The same is true of Jesus' use of "leaven". The disciples take him literally at first, arguing about the loaves... not realizing Jesus meant the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees.

Anyway, I definitely think that a fruitful line of research would be to examine precisely WHY the city Ninevah, which shares many of the characteristics of BTG, is called a prostitute.

Interpretum,

I think that understanding the attributes of a prostitute city could be understood by studying Ezeiel.

Ezekiel 23:1-4
23 And the word of Jehovah proceeded to come to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, two women, the daughters of one mother, there happened to be. 3 And they began to prostitute themselves in Egypt. In their youth they committed prostitution. There their breasts were squeezed, and there they pressed the bosoms of their virginity. 4 And their names were O·ho´lah the older one and O·hol´i·bah her sister, and they came to be mine and began to give birth to sons and daughters. And as for their names, O·ho´lah is Sa·mar´i·a, and O·hol´i·bah is Jerusalem.



In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

Ancient Babylon is best known for holding God's people captive and destroying God's Temple.

If it is the ancient attributes which identify the end time Babylon then please don't ignore these.


In Christ


abe

coccus,

I think that Jeremiah Chapter 51 should be seriously examined in regard to the end time Babylon.

I can find NO historical record of God's people fleeing Babylon prior to its destruction.

Or ancient record of God's people being told to flee Babylon.

The following scripture has never been fulfilled.


Jeremiah 51:6-8
6 “FLEE out of the midst of Babylon, and provide escape each one for his own soul. Do not be rendered inanimate through her error. For it is the time of vengeance belonging to Jehovah. There is treatment that he is paying back to her. 7 Babylon has been a golden cup in the hand of Jehovah, she making all the earth drunk. From her wine the nations have drunk. That is why the nations keep acting crazed. 8 Suddenly Babylon has fallen, so that she is broken. Howl over her, YOU people. Take balsam for her pain. Perhaps she may be healed



In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

So with what you have discerned the great crowd and the many waters that the harlot sits on is likely refering to the same people.

In Revelation 18 they are told to get out.

They are however, not told where to go in Revelation 18.

Revelation Chapter 7 might provide the; "where do they go" after they get out answer:


Revelation 7:9-17
9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”


If they get out of Babylon the Great then the next question is where are these; "fountains of waters of life"?

The better question might be; "who are these fountains of waters of life?"


Revelation 22:17
And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: “Come!” And let anyone hearing say: “Come!” And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.


Very important to understand what Babylon the Great is.

Otherwise what is a person going to; "get out of"?


Also important to understand is that these people are; "rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple".

Very interesting considering that the Apostle Paul says the temple would be undermined by a "man of lawlessness" immediately before Jesus Christ returns.


In my opinion Christianity is in for a big surprise and a great deal of turmoil.

During this turmoil however, ingredient number 31 will play a very important role in a persons salvation.

31. Thrown down before marriage of the Lamb. (Rev19)


Very good idea to not be IN Babylon the Great when she is thrown down and totally annihilated.


If the topic is "peoples and crowds and nations and tongues" then Daniel Chapter 7 also has to be considered:


Daniel 7:13-14
“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.


Daniel 7:26-27
26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally. (Babylon the Great?)
27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’


What kingdom and rulership is of any importance?


Christianity!


So "who are these fountains of waters of life?"


I believe they are the same "holy ones of the Supreme One" mentioned in Daniel Chapter 7.


In Christ

abe

Hi Abe

Well, it's clear to me that Jehovah viewed Jerusalem as a prostitute by getting involved with other nations (both religiously AND politically), even though she was married to Jehovah.

However, the reference is not so clear with Ninevah. Why would you say Ninevah (Nahum 3) was referred to as a prostitute? This is important to get a more rounded discussion of "prostitution" in a symbolic sense, because Ninevah was never married to God in any sense of the word.

Hi Abe

Precisely... which is why I hold to the view that Babylon the Great is Rome... she also destroyed God's Temple and sent the Jews into captivity, and yet is still around and doing quite well, despite having shed tons of Christian (and Jewish) blood over the centuries.

But I think we should abide by the rules set out by coccus for this thread, and leave our interpretations aside for now.

Also, another thought... did "Babylon the Great" exist also in John's day? I think it did, just as ancient Babylon did not suddenly spring up into existence in a tiny slither of time, but existed as a city from ancient times.

So the phrase "end time Babylon" may be a bit of a misnomer. "Babylon the Great" has not changed identities since whatever arbitrary date you use to mark the start of the so-called "end time". She must have a pretty strong history, in order to ride the wild beast and ensnare nations!

Hi Abe

Well, sort of... but I don't think these are necessarily a "special group" of people... I just think the phrase "all peoples and tongues and nations and crowds" is a reference to Gentiles (in Revelation 7, in contrast to a small number from Israel).

This is an interesting point. Maybe the reason is because it doesn't matter... especially if "Babylon The Great" is a physical location, a city... in which case, you just need to get out of that city.

Of course, we have not yet established in this thread that BTG is, in actual fact, a city (even though the angel tells us it is :D )... and I know how eager people are to re-interpret the angel's interpretation.

Of course... but isn't that the aim of this series of threads?

Personally, I'm a little skeptical that these threads will achieve their aim, because people seem to prefer to cling to their own opinions rather than to investigate truth objectively. (However, I'm happy to participate.)

Of course, the same could be said of myself I suppose, except I have changed my viewpoint several times, and do consider myself open-minded enough to change my opinion when there is sufficient evidence to do so - this is precisely why I now consider BTG to be Rome, even though I was taught it was "false religion", which can easily be disproved.

Well, I'm not going to discuss this here, because I don't want this thread to be derailed. I appreciate you see it as relevant, but let's stick to discussing the direct features of BTG, as coccus intended.

Well, this is slightly off-topic, but Daniel 7 itself IS relevant to our immediate discussion, because it seems the small horn is the same as the beast that is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:19-21...

... but again, in my opinion this reinforces the identity of the ten horned wild beast (both in Daniel and Revelation) as the Roman empire. True, the Roman empire no longer exists, but its fragments ("ten kings") still exist in Europe, along with the "mouthpiece of God" (the "small horn" that humiliates three of its fellows) in the longest running Western institution ever... the Vatican, to whom over one billion Christians look towards as their spiritual head.