Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi all ... :D:hibye:

I guess I ask this question in light perhaps a wee bit of the Adam and Eve thread ...:giverose:

They were CONDEMNED by JEHOVAH to DEATH ... as we all know ...

Some have the strong opinion that "perhaps" as such ... that that shows they 'may' ... and yet strongly lean towards 'not' ... have a hope of a resurrection ...

Others too have been sentenced by our God ... to death ...

So, I thought maybe this 'might' be a good topic to discuss ... or then again maybe not ... :redface::P

Anyway ... I have to toddle off to the store ... but will check in later with a thought or two ...:giverose:

Hopefully there will be some thoughts already presented ...;)

Lots of love as always ...

Your sis ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Will all persons who were destroyed by God in times past be dead forever?

The Bible indicates that not all destruction is eternal. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Hebrew word ´avad·dohn´ (destruction) is used twice to parallel “Sheol.” (Job 26:6; Pr 15:11) The prophet Zephaniah spoke of the destruction of Assyria, whereas Ezekiel said that the Assyrians would go down to Sheol. (Zep 2:13; Eze 32:21, 22) When speaking of the destruction of the rebels Dathan and Abiram, Moses wrote that they went down “alive into Sheol.” (Nu 16:31, 33) Since Sheol in the Bible denotes the common grave of mankind from which there will be a resurrection, it is evident that not all destruction—not even all destruction at the hand of God—is necessarily eternal.

I think it's a great topic, BR! Life and death have always been choices placed before Jehovah's people...like blessing and malediction. Needless to say, Jehovah's justice ultimately prevails with respect to eternal situations - while our own, largely uninformed decisions effect our health in this system of things (despite what our religion of choice tells us about these matters; they are subject to the laws of consequence and not theocratic legislation).

While some seem to be able to impute an evil motive where there is no evidence of such (reflecting their own personal demons, I'm sure), I find it very difficult to find any instances of sin against the holy spirit, except by the devil himself. Not that it hasn't happened mind you; I just haven't found any. Jehovah's angel axed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers. Are we to assume that each individual soldier was the spawn of satan...or just some dudes doing thier civic duty which had negative consequences? You want to go up against Jehovah's chosen people, you might have to go through his angels.

I have reasoned that it is someone who has the ability to blaspheme the holy spirit (the expressed purpose of Jehovah God with full knowledge of that purpose and with the intention of impeding that purpose) who will learn to butterfly in the lake of fire. I have also reasoned that very few have ever understood the expressed purpose of the Lord completely...so there is little opportunity for puny little people like us to blaspheme the holy spirit.

What I do know beyond any shadow of a doubt is that Jehovah is more fair than me...and is more merciful than me. What's that tell ya?

gus

There were even times that God killed children (were there only adults in Sodom and Gomorrah?--were all the firstborn sons of Egypt adults?). So it seems to me that whether God destroyed a person has nothing to do with whether that person gets a resurrection.

By the way, Adam and Eve don't really fall into this category, because they were not destroyed by God. They were merely condemned. And their condemnation didn't just apply to them. It applied to all their descendants. After all, was Eve the only one to get birth pangs? Was Adam the only one to have to till the ground? No--their sentence was for them and for everyone that came from their loins.

Well I'm back ...

Thanks for the replies ...:love: and thanks gus for the nice thought ...:love:

SOJ ... yes I too had thought of the account of Dathan and Abiram in this instance ...

Growing up in 'the truth' ... we ... at least I ... had been taught that anyone that was directly destroyed or condemned by our God Jehovah would have no hope of a resurrection as they would have went directly to Gehenna ...

I was VERY surprised as an ADULT to discover the above mentioned ones as having gone to 'Sheol' ... from where we are taught that individuals WILL receive a resurrection ...

I amazes me sometimes how we 'think' we 'know' something ... probably because we have 'heard' it in a talk or read it somewhere ... and continue to go on auto pilot as it were in that belief ... and then to discover that we were wrong all along ... and that there were clear Scriptures to prove it ... really causes one to 'wake up' ... (at least try too ... even though we may still have some sleep in our eyes and they may be a bit blurry) and smell the coffee ...:coffeeread::drinking::happyheart::P

Yes, IMHO, I think that 'sinning against the holy spirit' is NOT so easy to define ... and may even not be our 'place' to do so ...?:confused:

If Mannesseh ... a man who KNEW JEHOVAH ... and yet went OUT OF HIS WAY to OFFEND Jehovah by doing every dispicable thing he could think of and more ... even offering up his own flesh and blood ... if even HE has a 'chance' ... (he did repent and so he COULDN'T have sinned against the holy spirit) then who are we to say who will and who won't ...:giverose:

br. donbodo ... hello again ... you and your penchant for being 'exact' in 'words' ...:funnyface:

Well, I'm not totally sure I'm with you on this one:dontknow: ... have to think about it ...:huh:

Whether they died RIGHT AWAY or NOT ... they were still judged and sentenced with a LOSS OF THEIR LIFE were they not ... so couldn't this be looked at as being 'destroyed by Jehovah' ...?

It seems that Christ Jesus may have condemned the Scribes and Pharisees to go to Gehenna ... WHY ... because they had the Lord RIGHT THERE among them ... they SAW the MIRACLES that he performed ... and later even the apostles who were gifted with holy spirit to also perform miracles ...

This would leave NO ROOM FOR DOUBT that they were from GOD ... and this was obvious from various reactions of the people ...

However, those who said these miracles came from the DEVIL ... that they were NOT from God ... and SPURNED them ... perhaps this is what entails sinning against the holy spirit ...? Not recognizing what is CLEARLY from our God Jehovah ... and REJECTING it ...? And since it is from Jehovah and his Son ... only THEY will know for SURE who is guilty of this most serious sin ...:(

Since Jehovah said that he does NOT desire ANY to be destroyed ... but rather to have LIFE ... then we can be SURE that when it comes to sending anyone to Gehenna ... then they will DESERVE to be there!:(

Just some added thoughts and feelings ...

Lotsa luv ... your sis BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Sorry my finger slipped TWICE ... :post: ... my hands are cold and so they aren't as flexible as I'd like ...:huh::shocked::funnyface:

Hi BR....I hope you have recouperated and Manirus is recovering....dear..we all suffer , don't we....God bless you.

I have to believe that Jesus died and gave up his life ultimately, for  all to have life.....now it gets kind of a grey area with ones who were perfect, such as the angels and Adam and Eve...but its not for us to say...of course we know its not for us to say....we leave this in Jesus hands...I do know by virtue of being born in a fallen condition we are short lived and glutted with pain....seems kind of punishment in itself...doesn't it:confused:

But I leave all things in Jesus capable hands...his Father is....by putting faith in Jesus to do the just thing I'm honoring the Father as the Father has given all things into the hands of his Son..

Take care dear friend...

Sandi

I always thought "destroyed by Jehovah" would involve his personally killing them, no? After all, Adam and Eve died of old age, didn't they?

Besides, as I have written elsewhere, I don't think there was a sentence of death at all. Here's what Eve's sentence was:

“I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”

No death is mentioned.

Here's what Adam's sentence:

"Cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

First God tells him the ground will be cursed. Then he tells him that, because of that, he will have a hard time getting it to grow food. He will thus be punished with hard work. Then he tells him how long he will have to work: until he returns to the ground (i.e., his whole life). There is no mention of death until the end, and here it only seems to be an explanation as to why Adam will return to the ground: because that's where he came from. So I don't think this is his sentence at all. If it were a sentence, why didn't Eve get the same punishment? Was she not going to die? Of course she was! But not because she sinned. Here God explains why humans have to return to the ground--because that's where they come from.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that this is a death sentence. Who was the sentence on? It couldn't be only Adam, because all people go back to the dust!

Eve's sentence (which included birth pangs and male domination) was on the women who came after her too, not just Eve. Adam's sentence of tilling the ground applied not only to him, but also to every farmer after him. So if all these sentences applied to Adam and Eve's offspring, then why wouldn't the death sentence? It most certainly would. And thus it cannot be said that Jehovah destroyed Adam and Eve, because if he did, then he destroyed every single human after that.

One thing I've discovered about myself and my watchtower experience was that it nurtured an already superstitious attitude that I had developed. It justified believing in "mysteries" like those the catholic church taught me as a young child in St Elizabeth's grade school.

The real mystery that I have discovered is the one that lies squarely between my ears. As I have gone back and re-read the Bible, I have discovered a series of choices presented and choices made and their consequences. Nothing magical or mysterious at all. We have an inclination to observe "laws of nature," like gravity, because the consequences of disobeying them are immediate. When consequences are something less than immediate, they appear less like "law," because the consequences are "eventual." In the interim, we create mysteries.

From Adam & Eve to the present day, laws of nature exist independently of timeframe. They are simply ACTION > EQUAL & OPPOSITE REACTION. When Jehovah observed man attempting to "be like us," He recognized man's desire for independence from Him. Jehovah simply acknowledged the independent spirit without judging it as "good" or "bad" - and allowed Adam & Eve their independence, free of God. The power of life does not lie with men. Even though the original couple were given their independence "to be like us" (if possible), they were not given godly powers and, as a consequence, they eventually wore out. I don't think there's anything mystical about it.

gus

Hi br. donbodo ...

Well ... 'directly by Jehovah' ... or 'personally' ... hmmmm

Well ... was the ground opening up and swallowing them done personally by Jehovah ... or the 'ground' ...?

Was 'fire and sulfer' done personally by Jehovah or because they burned or suffocated to death (not sure exactly) ...

Was the 'rain for 40 days' done personally by Jehovah ... or the rain ...?

Was 'OLD AGE' done personally by Jehovah ... or time ...?

Just a couple of quick thoughts ...:happyheart:;)

Not sure just what 'personally' might mean to you ...

Lotsa luv ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Re: "Well ... 'directly by Jehovah' ... or 'personally' ... hmmmm"

Another example...

2 Kings 2:23...

" And he proceeded to go up from there to Beth´el. As he was going up on the way, there were small boys that came out from the city and began to jeer him and that kept saying to him: “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” Finally he turned behind him and saw them and called down evil upon them in the name of Jehovah. Then two she-bears came out from the woods and went tearing to pieces forty-two children of their number. "

Yet another ...

Acts 12:21...

" But on a set day Herod clothed himself with royal raiment and sat down upon the judgment seat and began giving them a public address. In turn the assembled people began shouting: “A god’s voice, and not a man’s!” Instantly the angel of Jehovah struck him, because he did not give the glory to God; and he became eaten up with worms and expired."

.02,

gogh

Hello Donbodo,

Your reply does make sense, most logical. I had not thought through it the way you have presented it.

Could the same outcome be said of the person Judas, betrayer of Jesus?
If I recall Jesus said it would have been better if he (Judas) had never been born. In other words will Judas too have the possibility of a resurrection as possibly Adam and Eve?


Regards,
Tessa

Dear BR and gogh,

If you open it up to any type of death approved of, sanctioned by, or permitted by Jehovah, then, as I said, everyone is destroyed by Jehovah. So what is the point of asking the question: "Those Destroyed By Jehovah ... Will They Receive a Resurrection?"

I mean, let's get our definitions down first. What sort of persons would you put into the "destroyed" category?

---
Dear Tessa,

Job said it would have been better if he had not been born too. It seems to mean that life wasn't worth all the suffering. Judas had to go through a lot of suffering for what he did. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with resurrection.

Hi Donbodo,

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. God told Adam 'not' to eat from the tree....and if he did eat from it, he would 'die' in that day. Gen. 2:17.

When the serpent questioned Eve about the tree, she repeated the same command from God...Gen. 3:3. Yet, the serpent claimed they wouldn't die, Gen. 3:4. Did Adam and Eve 'die' the day they ate from the tree? Didn't 'death' spread to all men on that day? Romans 5:12-21.

In the cases of people being destroyed 'directly' from God, (the flood, etc.), they would fall under the same 'death' sentence that was given to all mankind through Adam. They were already declared 'dead' so, would the direct killing (of the physical man) from God, be the defining factor? They all went to the same place upon thier physical death...Sheol. There was a resurrection from Sheol...it's the LOF there is no resurrection from, impo.

Hi Donbodo,

I wanted to add, I have just read your "Original Sin" essay. And, I don't agree with your conclusions. There just isn't any scriptural support for claiming God changed his mind about pronouncing death upon Adam and his decendants. It seems the Bible's message is just the opposite: Man was 'dead' until the Christ redeemed us.

Please, hear my thoughts....Gen. 2:7,8 explains what transpired between Adam and God:

Gen 2:7   Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.  
Gen 2:8   The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.  

God formed Adam, pronounced him 'alive' and, placed him in the 'garden'. Gen. 3:22-24, explains what the consequence was for eating from the tree of knowledge....

Gen 3:22   Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--  
Gen 3:23   therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.  
Gen 3:24   So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.  

Adam was expelled from the 'garden'. The tree of life was in the 'garden', not outside it. Adam's life was dependant on dwelling in the 'garden' partaking of the tree of life. Outside he was 'dead' and went back to the dust from which he was formed (no extension of spiritual life, beyond his physical death). And ultimately, all mankind went to Sheol. Adam 'died' the day he ate from the tree of knowledge.

The same scenario is seen in the New Jerusalem. There are those who are 'outside', Rev. 22:15, 21:8,27. But, there are also those who are 'inside' and are alive to God. The 'life' was/is spiritual...and life has been given to us through the Christ now, and it extends beyond this physical beginning we all have.

Hi BruisedReed

This is a great question! :thumbup:

I do believe the resurrection will be very widespread, and cover a lot more people than JWs currently believe.

In reproaching the cities in which Jesus had performed powerful works, he said:

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! because if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Sidon that took place in you, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Consequently I say to you, It will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgment Day than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Hades you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this very day. Consequently I say to you people, It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you.” (Mathew 11:21-24)

Tyre and Sidon were Gentile cities, yet Jesus makes clear that they would have repented, had Jesus performed his powerful works there.

Consequently, he says, it will be more endurable for them on judgement day, than for these Jewish cities. This implies the people of Tyre and Sidon will be resurrected.

But what of Sodom? Jude says that Sodom and Gomorrah underwent "the judicial punishment of everlasting fire". (Jude 7) This implies the cities will never be rebuilt, but this does not rule out the possibility of the people coming back. In Ezekiel 16:48, Jehovah compared ancient Jerusalem to Sodom: "Sodom your sister, she with her dependent towns, has not done according to what you did, you and your dependent towns." So, in God's eyes, ancient Jerusalem was worse than Sodom! And yet many times Jehovah showed mercy to Jerusalem.

Although Jesus considered his contemporary generation to be "wicked and adulterous", he nevertheless still implied they would get a resurrection:

"A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet... Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, look! something more than Jonah is here. The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than Solomon is here." (Mathew 12:39-42)

Both the men of Ninevah and the "queen of the south" will be "raised up" in the judgement with this generation. So the wicked and adulterous generation will themselves receive a resurrection.

However, this would explain why it would be more endurable for people like the Sodomites. These people had never heard or seen the wonderful things that Jesus was doing in the midst of the Jews. And yet many of the Jews refused to put their faith in him!

And yet the Gentile city of Ninevah immediately repented when Jonah preached to them!

Therefore it will be naturally more endurable for the people of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom in the resurrection, than for the people who had seen Jesus' powerful works!