Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello Melancholymuse!

I thought I would answer you under a new post so as to keep the other one on track!

So as to keep this peaceful I want you to know I do not believe our understanding about Jesus nature is as important as our having trusting faith in him!

The debate about the nature of God and Jesus can go on and on and on. One person pointing to this vs then the other person another vs etc.....

So I'd like to start this without using scripture.
Why do I believe Jesus did not live as a spirit person before he was born.
I believe YHWH is Love, if Jesus lived in heaven before Adam was created, and he could have come down at the start and been the first Adam instead of the 2nd Adam. This would have surely prevented alot of pain and suffering. I believe IF there could have been a different way for it to have worked out God would have done it and Jesus would have helped. Thus I believe Jesus was created when Mary conceived.

When I see it this way it gives me more peace in my heart.

Digging

Howdy digging,

Re: "This would have surely prevented allot of pain and suffering."

Is this not more of a topic/discussion about free will?

Regardless of a name attached to YHWH's first human creation, the ability to make choices that please our Heavenly Father means free will, correct?

(A side question...Did not YHWH communicate with Adam by means of the Word...(the spirit that became the human, Jesus?)

Christian love and appreciation,

gogh

No offense, but it seems you don't find anything "as important as our having trusting faith in him."

You might as well attend a nominal church ... "Jesus is love, Jesus is love."

RR

"This would have surely prevented allot of pain and suffering."

Hi digging,

Yes, it would have! But why did YHWH decide not to do it this way? I have just two answers and I am sure they are both wrong (so I won't bore you). I remember listening to many discussions about whether Christ pre-existed in heaven next to YHWH or if he was simply "just" a man, chosen to fulfill a certain purpose, and brought to live when Mary gave birth. I am still on the fence about this one myself so I look forward to all the responses you receive.

Keep on diggin'!

Love n' Light
Bruny

Dear gogh,

Yes I understand the part about the free will. So to give you a bigger picture of the way I think it could have turned out if Jesus had been the first Adam. The garden would have grown into the city mentioned Revelation, each person would still have the free choice to stay in the city or go out into the darkness. Slowly over time unrightousness would have grown to the same point as mentioned in Rev when Gog and his army try to destroy the righteous. The only difference is that righteous ones would never have suffered like now.
I believe Adam could have redeemed Eve like Jesus has redeemed us.

Something else that I have noticed over time is that many of the scriptures used to support a prehuman Jesus are also used to support the trinity...how many bibles have been translated by Trinitarians??

Digging

Dear RR :cheekkiss:

Hi digging,

Re: "I have noticed over time is that many of the scriptures used to support a prehuman Jesus are also used to support the trinity..."

Do you understand these scripture indicate Jesus having prehuman existence?

John 8:58...

"Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

John 17:5...

"So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was."


Christian love,

gogh

Hello digging ...:hibye: we haven't met before ... I'm BR ...:giverose:

First of all ... ;) I think Jesus' nature was ...

Very loving ... compassionate ... empathetic ... strong for righteousness ... full of zest and zeal ... humble ... and yet proud (in a GOOD way) ... :D

As to this 'other nature' you asked about ... as in all things I try to use Scripture to try to understand something or to back something up ...

I am not sure why you don't believe that Jesus was not in existance before he came to earth? Is that what you belief or have I misunderstood you? :thinking: It is more than possible I have done so ...

One Scripture that comes to mind to show that our Lord and Savior lived BEFORE he was a man here on earth is at John 8:58 ...

58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

This answer given by CHRIST JESUS was to the Scribes and Pharisees who were seeking to DENY that he was the SON OF GOD ...

What I find interesting to the idea that Jesus could indeed have existed PRIOR to his 'human nature' or 'flesh and blood existance' was the reaction that they had to his saying that BEFORE Abraham ... with whom these religious minded people no doubt held in hight esteem ... was born ... JESUS WAS ...

Notice what they did in verse 59 ...

59 Therefore they picked up stones to hurl [them] at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

For whatever reason they were unwilling to accept the POSSIBLITY that indeed this COULD be God's Son whom ... ironically enough ... they were looking to come ... to really be him ...

This is only of course one Scripture ... but it shows IMHO that indeed our Lord Jesus Christ existed ELSEWHERE ... in the heavens with his Father ... sharing in the work of creation and no doubt a host of other privileges ... as a spirit creation like his heavenly Father ... until he 'lowered himself' beneath the 'angels' ... and 'took the form of man' ... to carry out a beautiful thing ... a redemption work that ONLY HE could ... and how THANKFUL and GRATEFUL I am for his doing so ...:yahoo::bouncy::cheer:

Just some thoughts ... warm Christian love to you ... BR:bouncyhearts::happyheart:

Although I had a hard time letting go of the idea of Jesus' pre-human existence, I am now with Digging on this one.

If we consider the purpose of Christ's mission, what reason would there be for having any being superior to humans come to the earth? If only a man was needed, either to preach or to be sacrificed, even a perfect man, then why send a being greater than a man? If Christ was to set an example, would it not have been more appropriate for that example to be a man, than something greater than a man? That way, there would be no excuse for not following the example. Because, if he was a being of so much higher rank, it might be said that the laws of his nature might be very different from those of ours. And as an example of a resurrection to an immortal life, the death and resurrection of one who was simply a man was certainly far better adapted to give people satisfaction concerning their own future resurrection than the seeming death and resurrection of a divine being.

Christ is not only called a man even after his resurrection, but the apostles seem to indicate that he was a man by nature. "Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of by God, by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you" (Acts 2:22); "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead, for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:21).

Whatever exalted state Jesus now enjoys, it is the gift of his Father, and the reward of his obedience (Phil. 2:8-9; Heb. 2:9; 12:2).

Gogh, regarding the scriptures you cite, we have to remember the way John writes. He quotes Jesus as saying: "I am the way and the truth and the life." Now we don't take that literally. What Jesus means is that following him as a disciple is the way to the Father, that what he teaches is truth, and that he has sayings of everlasting life. Similarly, when he says, "I am the resurrection," he means it figuratively. He isn't the resurrection itself.

Thus also, when he says "I have been before Abraham," I take that to mean his teachings have been true since the beginning, or some such thing. Remember, John did say that God's word became flesh, and that flesh was Jesus. This doesn't mean that a sound came out of God's mouth and that it turned into a person. It means that what Jesus speaks is what God speaks. It's that wonderful language of the apostle John.

(Okay, now don't all jump down my throat at once.)

Sheesh Rolando... why don't you just dialogue with the girl instead of hurling insults at her. We're all in the same boat, just trying the best we can to understand scriptures.

Spud

Sorry spud, just seems that everytime an issue of doctrine comes up, and controversial dialogue ensues, it's just tossed out as of non importance ... and Jesus is all that counts.

RR

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Jesus did not start out perfect. He attained perfection just the same way we will..

Hello br. donbodo ... interesting comments ...:thinking:

I have no intention of jumping down your throat ... unless you'd like me to of course ...:bouncy::giggle:;)

I am not quite sure I follow you ... Are you saying that Jesus was 'a human' man ... an 'imperfect' man born of imperfect parents? Or do you believe that he was indeed 'born from God by holy spirit'?

Just trying to understand ...:giverose:

IMHO ... I think it might be good to consider perhaps whether or not Jesus was some sort of 'super or exalted man' in light of some of your comments?

WHY did Jesus come to earth?

Was it not to buy back what Adam lost? Would you not agree that the only way this was possible was to have a PERFECT man ... like Adam ... to 'balance' the scales ... is this not what is spoken of at Timothy concerning Christ Jesus?

1Tim. 2:6 ...

6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

The Greek work used for 'ransom' seems to have the full meaning of being a 'corresponding' ransom as the prefix would seem to indicate ... although I am no Greek scholar and might not be totally on target ...

So, what does 'corresponding' mean ...?

that corresponds in character or place; similar or equivalent

With this definition in mind than could Jesus have been MORE than Adam in his 'humanness'?

Did Jesus not get tired, hungry, and (not to be gutteral but only to make a point) even have to use the bathroom like any other man?

While it is true that his prehuman existance was 'opened' up to him at his baptism ... that still didn't take away from the fact that he was a human being ... perfect ... just as Adam was ... and had a one on one relatioship with his heavenly Father ... as Adam had ...

Does being 'perfect' make a 'man' MORE than a 'man' ... than would not Adam have been that same kind of man as well ...?

I don't really think that the Scriptures you used in Acts or Corinthians say what you may be wanting them to say?

All they are saying IMHO is that indeed when Christ walked this earth AS A MAN ... he made possible what he couldn't do as a spirit creature ... for then he wouldn't be 'corresponding' ... but would be 'higher' ...

I know that there are many people who deny that Jesus was the Son of God in the full sense of the word ... that of being directly created in the womb of Mary ... but is that not what our FAITH is all about ... did Jesus not say that it is better to believe without seeing than seeing ... although in his and his Father's beautiful nature ... knowing our human limitations ... they even make allowances for such ones ... and as the Scriptures show ... in the future there be no room for doubt as to what is going to happen to earth and people and why ...

Once our Lord was resurrected his was given A MORE EXALTED position than what he had before ... how could he be given something higher than he had BEFORE if hadn't been there and had it prior ...?

Just some more added thoughts ... only a couple of pennies worth ...:2cents: you'll have to excuse my slow brain ... we've been a wee bit busy lately ...:funnyface:

Lots of Christian love BR:bouncyhearts:

BR just a side note.. heb shows that he was not perfect.. he was made to become perfect.. is the way it reads to me..

which is even more amazing and is really the example that an imperfect create attained perfection. thru suffering. is the way it reads to me

Hi BR,

Both. I think his birth as a man was the beginning of his life. But he was born by spirit. The spirit chose him, determined his birth, and aided him to perfection. I agree with Totaldismay on this point.

I believe he was a normal man of super or exalted character.

Yes, I do believe he corresponded to Adam, but (and I talk about this in the Adam thread), I don't think Adam was perfect. At least not in the sense that we normally use the word.

No, he couldn't be. Good point.

Yes, I think so.

I think it means before his resurrection, i.e., when he was a human.

WOA!! their Bro Donbodo,,   I can't have ya agreeing with me:giggle:

I will make it clear that I beleive he as a spirit existed before he as a soul existed.

Also to jump in about perfection..  we haven't defined perfection!!
I personaly think other than sin I am perfect.. so once I am healed from sin totally i will be perfect just as Jesus was.  Remember he was still subject to pain and death being perfect...

13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins.

col1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Trully