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Yes Don, That is what I am thinking.

I know it's been a while but I wanted to make a reply to this point also. Remember there was one other person there with Jesus, John. I want to post up the two accounts from Mark and John.

Jhn 1:32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

Jhn 1:33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Jhn 1:34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

Mar 1:6 John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey.

Mar 1:7 And this was his message: “After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie.

Mar 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Mar 1:9 At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Mar 1:10 As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he(John) saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him(Jesus) like a dove.

Mar 1:11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Who was told to watch for the sign from heaven?? John was told HE would see the heavens open and the spirit of God decend on the Christ.

I believe it is a distraction form this account to change it into a pre-human life revealing event. God blessed John and made him a very important witness of Jesus Christ, by allowing him to see the spirit decend upon Jesus and hear God declare him as the Son whom he loves.

Digging

Hi e-magine,

I never got back to you on this issue of what the scripture means when it says that, upon Jesus' baptism, "he saw the heavens being parted."

You suggested it meant that Jesus became "aware of his pre existence" and conscious of "any memories of it."

Here is why I don't think this interpretation can be correct.

In Mark (3:10-11), Matthew (3:16-17), and Luke (3:21-22), we are told that the heavens parted to enable the holy spirit, as a dove, to come down, and for God's voice to be heard.

There is no mention of knowledge and memories coming down from heaven, only the spirit and the voice of God.

Digging and Don,
I stand corrected. The expression "he saw" refers to John, who was told in advance that he would see the Holy Spirit. The expression "the heaves opened" literally means "the clouds parted" so John could see the spirit come down, possibly like a ray of light.
My original thought was a WT vestige! :huh:

Hi Bruny,

I thought that this was an interesting Scripture concerning Christ:

"From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God."[Psalms 22:10]

I am wondering, if Jesus had pre-existed, then why was it written that from his mother's womb, the Father has been his God? Seems to me that it would say something like this: Before I came into my mother's womb you have been my God.

Warmest,
Anchor~:giverose:

psalms 2:7 It had also been prophesied.

Blessings,
Anchor~

Hi Manhu,

It would depend upon which creation Paul was speaking about. Paul also spoke about the "creation" at Romans 8 but this "creation" decays. See Romans 8:20-22

As we know, Jesus is the firstborn of the dead from among mankind. "First born of all creation"? (of men?)

Warmest,
Anchor~

After reading 2 Samuel 7:5-17, (!!!) I don't see how anyone could believe any longer that Jesus had a pre-human existence.

Compare Samuel with Psalms 89:3-4, 19-37, Psalms 80:14-17 and Psalms 72 chapter.

Blessings,
Anchor~

Hi Manhu,

It would depend upon which creation Paul was speaking about. Paul also spoke about the "creation" at Romans 8 but this "creation" decays. See Romans 8:20-22

As we know, Jesus is the firstborn of the dead from among mankind. "First born of all creation"? (of men?)

Warmest,
Anchor~

[quote=Anchor]
Hi Bruny,

I thought that this was an interesting Scripture concerning Christ:

"From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God."[Psalms 22:10]

I am wondering, if Jesus had pre-existed, then why was it written that from his mother's womb, the Father has been his God? Seems to me that it would say something like this: Before I came into my mother's womb you have been my God.

Warmest,
Anchor~:giverose:

John 1:14...

" And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me.
"

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am."

...

"Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations'" (Jeremiah in Jer. 1:4-5)

"The Lord called me before I was born..." (Isa 49:1)

"When God had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace..." (Gal. 1:15)

"He remembers His covenant forever, the word He commanded for a thousand generations, the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath He swore to Isaac. He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant" Ps 105:8-10

"The Lord said to me; "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." Deuteronomy 18: 17-19

Notice the words with the parenthesis in John 1:14 you quoted. That was added and should not have been put in there. (that is why it is in parenthesis) Also, in the older Bible translations, the *word* was not capitalized. There has been some crafty monkeying around with John 1:1 and some of the other Scriptures at 1 John concerning the word.

I will not say positively but I believe so far that the word spoken at John 1:1 was just as it says: the word of God which came down in flesh. Jesus was the spokesman for the "word of life" that was with God.

John 10:35 ..." unto whom the word of God came"

Luke 8:11 ... "the seed is the word of God"

Luke 8:12 .. taketh away the word ...

Luke 8:13 ... they hear, receive the word with joy

John 2:22 .. The word which Jesus had said

John 5:38 ...ye have not His word abiding in you

John 12:48... the word which I have spoken unto you

John 14:24 .. the word which you hear is not mine

John 17:6 ... and they have kept thy word

Acts 6:7 ... and the word of God increased

There are many more Scriptures that speak of the word of God. And this was the word that was given and spoken through Christ.

Warmest
Anchor~

PS John 1:2 should read: " it was with God in the beginning". (Not he) That is the true translating of that verse. A deeper study shows this :giverose:

That was because it was something that God had planned ahead. Of course God can read the genetics of a fertilized egg? :D Remember what Paul said concerning Gods words about Esau and Jacob before they were born. Also Pharoah

This pretty much was what God did concerning John the Baptist too.

Blessings,
Anchor~

Anchor,

These types of passages which have Messianic fulfillments are not complete doctinal theses on all matters relating to events in the life and existence of Christ.

Here is a case where the focus and limit of Fatherhood and Godness are centered on one event. The historical setting should be considered as well. Here is an account of suffering and hope for a 'virtuous man', or as Isaiah 46 shows- for a nation trying to be virtuous. So it has to make sense in its original setting first.

I think we all accept the premise that the Bible is a progressive revelation, as such it would be another 1000 years before the revelation of the Logos was the Son of God and would be born by a miracle of heavenly Fatherhood and human female. That would have been a lot to grasp in the original setting and a distraction to the immediate purpose of the Psalm which was a lament or entreaty to stay faithful under trial.