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Hi Folks

I'm posting this because, as you may know, I believe Revelation commenced fulfillment in the 1st century... and since I'm often asked for proof and reasons why, I decided to start a thread which I could refer to whenever someone asks.

There is an abundance of proof for the statement that Revelation commenced in the 1st century, and I would like to present it here, along with a broad outline of Revelation and its meaning.

Proof #1: An UNSEALED Book.

Unlike some of Daniel's prophecies, in which " the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end" (Dan 12:9), Jesus continually makes clear that the words of Revelation were NOT sealed, and were to have immediate application:

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near." (Rev 1:1-3)

"He also tells me: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near." (Rev 22:10)

Jesus explains clearly why it's not sealed up... "the appointed time is near"... repeating what was stated in the introduction.

Proof #2: Messages To The 7 Congregations Match Facts On The Ground

While it's true that Jesus' counsel to the 7 congregations can be applied to the congregations of all ages (and some like to match them to so-called "church ages"), the bottom line is that Jesus was first of all counseling 7 specific congregations in Asia Minor, each with their own unique problems and reasons for praise (or not, in some cases).

Take the congregation in Ephesus. Speaking to the elders of Ephesus, Paul warned that "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30)

This did not need DECADES to develop, as some claim. Paul warned it would start to happen after his going away! Jesus' counsel to the Ephesians showed they HAD maintained doctrinal purity, but had left their first love.

That this can happen quickly is shown by Jude (about 65AD), who wanted to write about the faith held in common, but instead had to write about the men who had "slipped in" to their midst! They had taken the path of Balaam. This is the same theme Peter takes up, in his second letter (about 64AD). Peter also uses the illustration of Balaam.

So is it any wonder that Jesus has to warn TWO congregations about the "sect of the Nicolatians"... Ephesus (who hated them), and Pergamum (who had a few holding to their teachings). Jesus actually DIRECTLY calls them "the teaching of Balaam", just as Jude in 65AD and Peter in 64AD alluded to Balaam. These things happened quickly, within the Christian congregation... and were already becoming a major problem in the 60's of the 1st century, as testified by Peter and Jude.

Furthermore, twice Jesus had to talk about "the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan". (Rev 2:9)

In his ministry, Jesus referred to the Jewish leaders such as the scribes and Pharisees as "from your father the Devil" (John 8:44). Jesus was not talking about the ordinary Jew on the street, but the ones who opposed him, even leading to his death.

We know, from the book of Acts, that many of the Jewish leaders resisted the apostles, and even followed Paul around, stirring up trouble! Clearly the counsel about the Jews must have been given during a period when the Jews were still very powerful (in Alexandria, for example, they had a major edict from an emperor giving them high status), and able to cause major trouble for the disciples... a situation that was terribly reversed after 70AD, when the Jews had been slaughtered in many of the major Roman cities, and their ancient city and Temple lay in ruins.

In other words, the circumstances of the seven Asia minor congregations fits the mid to late 60's (BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem in 70), and matches with the late counsel of Jude and Peter, also given in the mid-60's.

Proof #3: Jesus Opens The Seals... Nobody Else!

An abundance of commentators have given their own interpretations to Revelation, but the account itself tells us that only ONE person is actually able to open its seals... and that is Jesus himself.

"And I saw in the right hand of the One seated upon the throne a scroll written within and on the reverse side, sealed tight with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?” But neither in heaven nor upon earth nor underneath the earth was there a single one able to open the scroll or to look into it. And I gave way to a great deal of weeping because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. But one of the elders says to me: “Stop weeping. Look! The Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals.” (Rev 5:1-5)

Now, that leaves us with only two options... either (a) we still have to wait for Jesus to interpret it, or (b) Jesus has ALREADY interpreted it for us.

Option (a) contradicts the notion that it is UNSEALED... indeed, the whole symbology of Revelation 6 is of Jesus (the Lamb) opening the seals!

So we are left to consider that Jesus has already interpreted the seals for us... and I propose that he has done so... in the prophecy he gave on the Mount of Olives!

Proof #4: The Prophecy On The Mount Of Olives Matches The Seven Seals

In the prophecy given on the Mount of Olives, and recorded in Mathew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, Jesus foretells wars, famines, earthquakes, persecution and death for his disciples, a "great tribulation", sun and moon and stars darkening, and a gathering from the four winds.

The seven seals, using somewhat different language, pictures the SAME things!... wars, famines, death of the disciples, sun and moon and stars darkening, and then four winds being held back while 144,000 and a "great crowd" appear... until seven trumpets kick off with, in part, an earthquake.

This similarity is not coincidence, because they spring from the same source... namely, Jesus. Jesus was no doubt well aware of his earlier prophecy on the Mount Of Olives (the "Olivet Prophecy"), and I propose he is using similar themes because it's THE SAME EVENTS!

The Olivet Prophecy makes it plain what Jesus is referring to...

"...let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains." (Mat 24:16)

"...then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains" (Mark 13:14)

"...Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her." (Luke 21:21)

This was a prophecy for those living "in Judea", and for those in the country places round about Judea. That's what it SAYS... and is NOT an interpretation.

The "seven seals" also draws upon further Jewish idioms that Jesus himself made use of. For example, speaking just before his death, he said:

"Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for me. On the contrary, weep for yourselves and for your children; because, look! days are coming in which people will say, ‘Happy are the barren women, and the wombs that did not give birth and the breasts that did not nurse!’ Then they will start to say to the mountains, ‘Fall over us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us over!’ Because if they do these things when the tree is moist, what will occur when it is withered?”"

Jesus uses not one but TWO metaphors here, that are used in the "seven seals". The metaphor of mountains covering them...

"And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev 6:15-17)

... and also the idea of a moist TREE becoming withered...

"And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe figs." (Rev 6:12,13)

Notice the allusion to a fig tree is also found in the Olivet Prophecy:

"Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away." (Mat 24:32-35)

These are not coincidences. These references in Revelation point us back to Jesus' words. Jesus unseals the seals... it is HIS prophecy. And he constantly referenced Jerusalem, Judea, and the daughters of Jerusalem. The Olivet Prophecy was a prophecy about the fall of Jerusalem, and so are the "seven seals"... they lead up to the fall of Jerusalem.

Proof #5: History Matches Up With The Seven Seals

Before the fall of Jerusalem you did indeed have wars, famines, earthquakes, persecutions, Christians put to death, and a "holding back of the four winds".

A famine that came upon the earth was actually recorded in the book of Acts, and took place under emperor Claudius.

In the early or mid 60's, Nero had Christians in Rome burned in his Vatican Gardens. In 66, Judea rebelled from the Romans, and shortly afterwards so did Gaul in the north. These reports from north and east disturbed Nero (see Daniel 11:44) that he sent Vespasian to finish the war with the Jews, but then Nero committed suicide (68AD), causing civil war to break out even in Rome. Thus was the world plunged into a terrifying state, as the civil order broke down... while Jerusalem itself was also plunged into a great tribulation as a result of the Zealots holed out in the Temple, and the Idumeans who ravaged the city.

Meanwhile, Josephus reported on a mysterious prophet, who went around all the streets of Jerusalem. All he would say was..

"A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!"

He did this for 7 years, and could not be stopped, even by flogging! He just repeated these words, for 7 years... until he was killed by a stone from the Roman siege engines, in 70AD.

Meanwhile, in 66AD... the four winds of tribulation were held back to allow Christians to flee from Jerusalem to Pella. Revelation 8 represents Jesus gathering his chosen ones from the four winds... and what emerged was two great congregations... Jewish Christians, and Gentile Christians.

Proof 6: The Seven Trumpets Match The Fall Of Jerusalem

The seven trumpets commence with a pause in heaven for half an hour, and then incense from the prayers of the holy ones are mingled with fire and cast to the earth... causing thunders, lightnings, voices and an earthquake.

Josephus reports one of the mysterious signs given to the Jews before the fall of their city:

"Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it."

And Josephus describes the night which he considered marked the start of the fall of the downfall of Jerusalem as the night in which the Idumeans snuck into Jerusalem and killed thousands:

"But the shame that would attend them [the Idumeans] in case they returned without doing anything at all so far overcame that their repentance, that they lay all night before the wall, though in a very bad encampment; for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming."

The Idumeans and the Jews interpreted this as a sign from God, but the Zealots used this storm to let them into Jerusalem secretly... and this led to mass slaughter and wailing that night... 8,500 dead, and the outer Temple overflowed with blood. Josephus himself wrote that this event, he believed, marked the downfall of Jerusalem.

The actual seven trumpets symbolize the events (recorded by Josephus in detail) leading up to the Romans arriving back at Jerusalem in 70AD.

The Romans blazed through the lands, devastating earth and tree (often chopping them down to use as part of the war effort), the sea battles and shipwrecks, their capture of the land around Jericho (where Elisha had earlier healed the waters) and Jordan, and then Nero's death (trumpet 4) leading to 3 emperors and civil war in Rome, while Jerusalem split into three factions.

Trumpet 5 matches with the Idumeans tormenting the Jewish population of Jerusalem, even down to the details such as the Idumeans dressing up as women, and men seeking to die but not finding it.

Trumpet 6 matches with the arrival of the Romans and their siege engines (70AD).

Revelation 10 symbolizes the pause in the war, during which the Romans mercifully allowed Jews to desert to them... before Jerusalem was surrounded by fortifications, making escape impossible.

Revelation 11 symbolizes the actual fall of Jerusalem, when the Romans broke through to the Temple and commenced the trampling of that city, for 42 months (70-73AD) until the re-capture of the fortress of Masada from the Jews.

The Romans held massive and spectacular victory celebrations in Rome, parading the Temple items through the streets. Rome had proved victorious... who could wage with with Rome? Even the Jews, who believed God was on their side, could not do so!

But the unseen reality here is that God really gained the victory. He had fulfilled Jesus' words, and the words of the prophets, upon Jerusalem... He had taken his great power and begun ruling as King, but not in the way the Jews expected!

Proof 7: Daniel Testifies To Revelation

In Daniel 9, Daniel is still in Babylon, has read about the 70 years to be fulfilled upon Babylon, and now wants to know what's going to happen to his people and his holy city, Jerusalem.

Gabriel appears in answer to his prayer, and tells him!

"There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies." (Dan 9:24)

We should note that Gabriel actually came to add details to Daniel's prior visions...

"At the start of your entreaties a word went forth, and I myself have come to make report, because you are someone very desirable. So give consideration to the matter, and have understanding in the thing seen."

Daniel had already been given 2 visions, so this third vision would elaborate on the previous two. In the second (Daniel 8), he saw "an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success." (Dan 8:12)

Now Gabriel was foretelling a period of "seventy weeks" for his people, leading to the Messiah, the Messiah being "cut off", and then the city and sanctuary being desolated.

I appreciate that many evangelical Christians believe Daniel's last "week" is somehow broken off and cast into the future... but if we look at the chronology of Daniel, we see how it was fulfilled by the Romans in the 1st century.

"And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si´ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself." (9:26)

Most commentators agree this was a reference to Messiah's death in the 30's AD (although people disagree on the exact year, I think 33AD is a reasonable date).

Then the account continues:

"And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations."

This is clearly a reference to Jerusalem and her Temple, the very subject matter upon which Daniel had prayed. The "people of a leader that is coming" had already been pictured in several prior prophecies... it was the Romans.

And indeed, war and desolations is how it ended up for the Jews, after they rejected their Messiah.

Now, the final part is what causes the most confusion, and make people find a 1st century fulfillment difficult to accept:

"And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."

Actually, this is a mistranslation of the Hebrew, which was initially perpetuated by the King James Version.

You can use a Hebrew interlinear to see what the original Hebrew actually says:
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterline..._Index.htm

Here is the word for word...

and-he-(has)-mastery covenant to-(the)-many-ones seven one and-half-of the-seven he-shall-cause-(to)-cease sacrifice and-present-(offering)

The Hebrew nowhere says he will MAKE or CONFIRM a covenant, or even keep a covenant in force, as many evangelicals believe.

The reference is to "mastery" [gabar]... the word is elsewhere used in the King James Version to imply prevailing over:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...1396&t=KJV

Notice that ONLY in Daniel 9:27 do the translators use "gabar" in the sense of CONFIRMING a covenant! Methinks they are misleading readers here... the Hebrew is telling us that the leader that was to come, would prevail over the covenant people for 7 years.

If you don't believe me, look at every OTHER use of the word "gabar" in the link above... and look at how different they translate it exclusively in Daniel 9:27!

If the sense is as used in every other occasion, then the Romans fulfilled this scripture. They did indeed prevail over the covenant people (the Jews) for 7 years... between 66 and 73AD.

What's more, in 70AD... the "half of the week", they caused sacrifice and offering to cease, when nobody could be found to present that sacrifice anymore... and then shortly afterwards, the Temple was desolated.

Finally, Daniel's prophecy ends:

"And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate." (NWT)

The "very thing decided upon" was desolations, and that is what the Roman armies caused Jerusalem and the Jews... literally desolations upon desolation. Unlike their original 70 year exile, the Jews were not permitted to live in Jerusalem for hundreds of years, and Israel only regained Jerusalem for itself in 1967AD!

Here the NWT agrees with the original Hebrew, with the passage making a distinction between the one causing desolation (the Romans), and the one being desolated (the city). (You can confirm this with the above Hebrew interlinear).

Unfortunately, I believe most translations perpetuate the King James Version's error BECAUSE they want to believe in the idea of a future 7 years, with antichrist making a 7 year treaty and then breaking it half way through.

This is NOWHERE taught in the Hebrew text of this passage.

If we stick with the meaning of "gabar" that the King James Version uses everywhere else, then the leader to come after Jesus' death would prevail over the covenant people for 7 years (not MAKE or CONFIRM a covenant WITH them!)... and this was fulfilled by the Romans during 66-73AD, when they brought their disgusting things (the wings of eagles as their ensigns, which their armies viewed as gods) into the city and temple.

Now, why did I bring up Daniel 9?

It's because Revelation 11-13 alludes to this same period, in two broken halves.

In the prior period (66-70AD) the Christians fled, and were fed in the wilderness, as it were... and in the second half (70-73AD) Jerusalem and the Temple are captured, and Jerusalem is trampled upon.

This is the plain teaching of Daniel 9, if we put aside the original King James mistranslation which has been perpetuated even today.

In 70AD, the transgression that caused God's anger with the Jews was brought to an end. Jesus had brought in righteousness by his kingdom, which began in 33AD, and a seal upon vision and prophet had been made, confirming Jehovah's words came true.

Proof #8: The Lord's Day... When?

Many people quote this scripture as proof that Revelation has not yet happened:

"By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day..." (Rev 1:10)

But the following passages imply the "Lord's day" is not necessarily FUTURE, at all...

Peter quoted from the book of Joel, implying that not only were the apostles living in "the last days", but also the "day of the Lord" was close to them:

'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD." (Acts 2:17-20)

Holy spirit was poured out in 33AD, and some Christians became prophets. Josephus reported on the wonders in heaven that occurred before the fall of Jerusalem, which included chariots skipping about in the clouds and surrounding cities, and a star shaped like a sword over the city for a year.

On the earth, they had the half an hour light from the Temple, the sound of a rushing wind and voices saying "Let us depart hence", and the gate opening of its own accord, and the mysterious prophet who for 7 years went round Jerusalem repeating exactly the same woe from the four winds.

There were indeed blood, fire and columns of smoke in the war that led up to the downfall of Jerusalem.

And the sun was darkened and the moon turned into blood in the same sense that it did when ancient Babylon fell to the Medes. (Compare Isaiah 13:10,17) We have no evidence this happened physically, but in a symbolic sense the "sun" and "moon", symbolizing the rulers of Babylon, did indeed darken.

All of this occurred upon Jerusalem, within 40 years from the outpouring of holy spirit, in which Peter demonstrated they were in "the last days"... clearly a period of time that would END... and end with the "day of the Lord", implying the "day of the Lord" culminated in 70.

Another line of evidence is the final book of the Old Testament - Malachi, literally meaning "My Messenger".

"Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts." (3:1)

John the Baptist came to prepare a people for the Lord, and then Jesus came and ruffled up the Jewish feathers, even throwing the money changers from the Temple!

No wonder the account asks:

"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years." (3:2-4)

His physical coming (in the flesh) drew many of the right-hearted Jews to him, and the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem ultimately refined God's people, by making a distinction between those serving God, and those not.

Indeed, the same account promises they WOULD see the distinction again. Talking about drawing up a "book of remembrance" for those in fear of the Lord, God says:

"They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, my special possession on the day when I act, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. Then once more you shall distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him." (3:17,18)

This distinction became manifest from 33 onwards, when the disciples and apostles, although Jews, distinguished themselves by their recognition of Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Finally, God brought about the ultimate severance from the Jewish system when the Christians fled in 66 (sparing THEM), and God brought the Jewish system to an end in 70.

Finally, God promises, and the Old Testament canon itself closes with these words:

"Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and ordinances that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse." (4:4-6)

This is God's final appeal to the Jews through the prophets, until the appearance of John the Baptist. John's birth was announced by Gabriel in this way:

"And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared." (Luke 1:16,17)

Yes, John the Baptist was to FULFILL the role as in Malachi 4... he came in the power and spirit of Elijah... to turn the hearts of fathers to their children... to make ready for the Lord a people prepared... BEFORE THE LORD'S DAY!

Indeed, these are the words John the Baptist himself spoke, to the Pharisees and Sadduccees who came to him to be baptized:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sad'ducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit that befits repentance, and do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father'; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.
Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." (Mat 3:7-12)

Yes, Jesus would both baptize with holy spirit, and with fire. Holy spirit, for those fit for his kingdom, and with fire for those not. But bear in mind... John the Baptist was warning the Pharisees and Sadduccees because those days were CLOSE!

What would be the point of John warning them, if he were referring to events 1,900 years after they died? No... it was only 40 more years before those things would come upon them, and the chaff was burned in the fire.

The book of Malachi is the entire story of the 1st century. The end warning was clearly for the Jews, God reminding them of His statutes and ordinances he gave them through Moses, and also talking about how He intended to create a "special possession" from among the Jews... which clearly turned out to be the Christians.

It was a warning for them to recognize his messenger, and the Lord, and to accept his prophet Elijah (given to them as John the Baptist), before "the great and terrible day of the LORD comes"... which clearly came upon them in 70AD.

So if John was indeed present in the Lord's day through inspiration, I would suggest he was witnessing the full events that would lead to the fall and trampling of Jerusalem.

Proof #9: 70 Weeks, Abomination Of Desolation And The Church Fathers

I know that many on this forum don't give particularly strong weight to the church fathers, who were basically commentators of scripture.

However, in case some claim that the above proof of the meaning of Daniel 9 is a private interpretation, the following quotes from church fathers of various ages show that the belief that Daniel was FULFILLED in the 1st century... and thus that Jesus was quoting it in exclusive reference to events surrounding Jerusalem... was well known throughout history.

Clement Of Alexandria (about 150-220AD)

"The Temple was rebuilt in seven weeks: then, after an interval of sixty-two weeks, the Messiah came. then, after an interval of half a week, Nero placed an abomination in the Temple of Jerusalem: and, after another half-week, the Temple was destroyed by Vespasian."

"And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said." [The Stromata, Or Miscellanies. Book 1. ed. A.Roberts and J. Donaldson, 4.0 ed., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, vol. 1), p. 307.]

Tertullian (Approx. AD 200)

CHAP. VIII.-- OF JERUSALEM'S DESTRUCTION.
"Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that "both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin." And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader, must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.

"Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place "libations and sacrifices," which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated; for "the unction," too, was "exterminated" in that place after the passion of Christ. For it had been predicted that the unction should be exterminated in that place; as in the Psalms it is prophesied, "They exterminated my hands and feet." And the suffering of this "extermination" was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April, on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses. Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children;" and, "If thou dismiss him, thou art not a friend of Caesar;" in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him. (An Answer to the Jews 8.)

Eusebius, church historian (314AD)

"And the people of the governor that cometh will destroy the city and the holy place." Meaning that the city and the Holy Place are not only to be ruined by the leader to come, whom I have identified in my interpretation, but also by his people. And you would not be far wrong in saying, too, that the Roman general and his army are meant by the words before us, where I think the camps of the Roman rulers are meant, who governed the nation from that time, and who destroyed the city of Jerusalem itself, and its ancient venerable Temple. For they were cut off by them as by a flood, and were at once involved in destruction until the war was concluded, so that the prophecy was fulfilled and they suffered utter desolation after their plot against our Saviour, which was followed by their extreme sufferings during the siege. You will find an accurate account of it in the history of Josephus." (Demonstratio Evangelica (Proof of the Gospel) ; BOOK VIII)


This adds weight to the idea that the early Christian congregations recognized Daniel 9's "70 weeks" prophecy as being fulfilled in the 1st century... and thus, Daniel's comment about the one causing desolation coming upon the wings of disgusting things was the Roman armies with their eagle ensigns, and Jesus quoted from Daniel, in reference to the Romans.

Thanks interpretum.

I find that I agree a great amount with you. I'll have to read it more carefully, but here are a couple of areas I disagree and a couple questions.

First, what proof is there for an early date for Revelation? Most scholars say it was written about 90 AD. Please provide scholarly references.

Second, the Lord's Day is a different Greek phrase from the Day of the Lord. The New Testament implies, and early Church history confirms the implicaiton, that the believers got together to worship on Sunday, the first day of the week. They did so because Christ was raised on a Sunday. They called the day, "The Lord's Day". The two references I can think of this are in the Didache and Justin Martyr. So John would then be referencing what day of the week it was when he was in the Spirit, Sunday.

Also, would you still hold to a futurist view of chapters 19-22? What I mean is, do you believe that 19-22 are about the second coming and eternal state? Also, what's your take on the millennium?

Thanks,

Matt

Hi Mavos

Thanks for your questions.

I'm not sure what would be classed as a "scholarly references". The link below gives details about more lines of evidence pointing to a pre-70 date.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStu...index.html

For example, the Muratorian Canon (AD170) says:

"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name. "

"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. " (ANF 5:603).

This seems to suggest John's Revelation was written prior to Paul! I guess this is possible, since one church father claims it was written during the reign of Claudius.

Epiphanies (A. D. 315-403)
States Revelation was written under "Claudius [Nero] Caesar." (Epiphanies, Heresies 51:12,)

I found this interesting quote there, which explains further external reasoning for placing an earlier date on Revelation:

"The following arguments favor an earlier date, namely, under Nero: (1) EUSEBIUS [Demonstration of the Gospel] unites in the same sentence John's banishment with the stoning of James and the beheading of Paul, which were under Nero. (2) CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA'S story of the robber reclaimed by John, after he had pursued, and with difficulty overtaken him, accords better with John then being a younger man than under Domitian, when he was one hundred years old. Arethas, in the sixth century, applies the sixth seal to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), adding that the Apocalypse was written before that event. So the Syriac version states he was banished by Nero the Cæsar. Laodicea was overthrown by an earthquake (A.D. 60) but was immediately rebuilt, so that its being called "rich and increased with goods" is not incompatible with this book having been written under the Neronian persecution (A.D. 64). But the possible allusions to it in Heb 10:37; compare Re 1:4,8 4:8 22:12; Heb 11:10; compare Re 21:14; Heb 12:22,23; compare Re 14:1; Heb 8:1,2; compare Re 11:19 15:5 21:3; Heb 4:12; compare Re 1:16 2:12,16 19:13,15; Heb 4:9; compare Re 20:1-15; also 1Pe 1:7,13 4:13, with Re 1:1; 1Pe 2:9 with Re 5:10; 2Ti 4:8, with Re 2:26,27 3:21 11:18; Eph 6:12, with Re 12:7-12; Php 4:3, with Re 3:5 13:8,17:8 20:12,15; Col 1:18, with Re 1:5; 1Co 15:52, with Re 10:7 11:15-18, make a date before the destruction of Laodicea possible. Cerinthus is stated to have died before John; as then he borrowed much in his Pseudo-Apocalypse from John's, it is likely the latter was at an earlier date than Domitian's reign. See TILLOCH'S Introduction to Apocalypse. But the Pauline benediction (Re 1:4) implies it was written after Paul's death under Nero." (introduction to Revelation; Jamieson, Fausset and Brown (1871))

In fact, not that I had considered it before, but there are many passages in Revelation that could actually have been almost virtually quoted by Paul.

Also, this comment is particularly intriguing:

Robert Young (1885)
"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitious Nero, as state in the title of the Syriac version of the book ; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in A.D.175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou -- ie., Domitious (Nero). Sulpicius, Orosius, etc., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domition, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Commentary on Revelation - Young's Analytical Concordance)

In other words, Irenaeus, from where most other people deduce it was written in the reign of Domitian, could actually have been referring to Nero!

I agree that the internal evidence for a pre-70 date is very strong. Apart from the comments to the 7 congregations (which I discussed in Proof #2), we have the seven "heads" as seven kings, five had fallen... which would fit with the prior emperors Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula [Caius] and Claudius, making Nero the one who "is".

And Revelation 11 commences with an allusion to the Temple still standing, and then the holy city being trampled, making pre-70 highly likely.

I agree that John could simply have been having the vision on the Jewish "Lord's day". If THIS is the case, it emphasizes the strongly Jewish nature of the book, and in my opinion, lends weight to the idea that Revelation commemorates (in part) the fall of Jerusalem.

Yes. Ultimately, it's difficult to label my belief system, except to say I believe Revelation commenced fulfillment prior to the fall of Jerusalem, covers the fall of Jerusalem in the "seven seals" and particularly the "seven trumpets"... and then foretells the development of nations after that time, starting from the peak of the Roman empire's power (the first wild beast).

While the Roman empire came and went, its influence is still felt... many nations ("ten kings") sprang from it, and also the spiritual power (the Papacy), which is still here today and still sits within Rome, in the very place (the Vatican) where Nero had the Christians burned!

So, in my opinion, the second half of Revelation covers the rise and eventual fall of this Roman power and its successors... both in its political and spiritual nature.

Babylon the Great is Rome (both as the "city of the seven hills", and with five "heads" who had fallen in John's day if we go with a 60's dating), and Revelation 19 cannot happen until Babylon is cast down like a millstone, never to be found again (Rev 18).

Up until this point, Rome as a city has fallen but always revived. The Rome Papal power has lost most of its direct political power, but still exists and exercises influence over the nations.

In other words, I think God deals with "Babylon the Great" in the same way as with ancient Babylon, where it initially "fell" in 539BC, but then declined for hundreds of years.

Rome lost major political power when it was conquered by barbarians in 476AD, but it maintained its spiritual authority because it was the seat of the Pope. This maintained Rome's prominence in the world, until the Protestant reformation of the 1500's, which I would perhaps equate with Revelation 14, and an initial fall and then decline.

However, the difference appears to be that "Babylon" will suffer divine vengeance at some point in the future, at Armageddon (chapter 16), and described in chapters 17, 18.

Only then is Jesus unveiled from heaven, in chapter 19... after the complete desolation of "Babylon".

As for the 1,000 years... I suspect this is a literal period, and the focus does seem to be about the earth. Here's why:

Most of the passages of Revelation 20-22 are directly quoting from, or alluding to, Old Testament prophecies. I think there is actually a nice way of connecting the Old Testament prophecies with the ones found in Revelation.

Many of the promises in the Old Testament prophecies were given to the city of Jerusalem (i.e. Zechariah 14), and Revelation talks about New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, and the tent of God residing with mankind.

In other words, in my opinion God's prophecies eventually come full circle, and they are ALL fulfilled...

New Jerusalem, made up first and foremost of the apostles and disciples of Christ, becomes God's new capital... ON EARTH!... and in the same location as Old Jerusalem!

This is the only way I can see where the very literal OT prophecies are perfectly reconciled with the more spiritual ones in Revelation.

In this regard, I think the average Christian has 2/3rds of the picture. They see ancient Jerusalem, and then the prophecies being fulfilled in a symbolic "New Jerusalem". I suggest there is one final step to God's plan... and that is to make the symbolic "New Jerusalem" to become REAL... New Jerusalem... in the place such a city would naturally belong, i.e. Jerusalem... during the millennium.

This is how, say, Zechariah 14 can be fulfilled... only when God once again views the city of Jerusalem as holy. The language of Revelation suggests this passage of Zechariah IS a description of Armageddon and the events after it... in which the ones left remaining out of the nations must go up to Jehovah from year to year, to bow down to Jehovah and to celebrate the festival of booths!