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Full Version: Who Was Paul Speaking of in 1 Corinthians 15?
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I know that new thought are disturbing to many, and that many with closed minds will not read it completely and rebut with canned phrases that they've been taught. However, for those of you with open minds, I would like to present something perhaps new to consider.

Most of us have been taught that 1 Corinthians 15 applies to just those of the heavenly hope, because we've also been taught that the Bible was written to just "the anointed," which I don't believe is true. So, here goes:

Have you ever thought that the ‘sheep’ who ‘inherit the Kingdom’ won't have an earthly hope? Notice what Jesus said about them at Matthew 25:34-36: ‘Then the king will tell those on his right, Come, you who have been praised by my Father, inherit the Kingdom that has been prepared for you from the founding of the world.’

Notice that the promise to the sheep was that they would ‘inherit the Kingdom,’ because they had done good things for Jesus’ brothers. And it appears as though the ‘sheep’ that Jesus spoke of there have an earthly calling, because they are being separated from ‘the goats,’ who obviously weren’t in heaven. And thereafter, there’s no mention of the sheep being taken to heaven. There’s just the promise of ‘inheriting the Kingdom,’ which likely means the same as ‘inheriting the earth.’

But notice the words of Paul that are found at 1 Corinthians 15:49-54, ‘So, just as we’ve worn the image of the one who was made from the dust, we will also wear the image of the Heavenly One. I tell you this, brothers: Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor can [something that’s] decaying inherit cleanliness. Look, I tell you a mystery: Not all of us will be laid to rest, but we will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. The trumpet will blow and the dead will be raised clean, and we will be changed. Then that which is corruptible will put on incorruptibility, and that which is dying will put on immortality. But, when that which is dying puts on immortality, then the words that were written are fulfilled, Death is swallowed in victory.’

Do you see the contradiction? These words of Paul – that Christians will ‘wear the image of the holy one,’ that they will be instantly ‘changed,’ and that they will ‘put on immortality (gr. athanasia)’ – have always been thought of as conclusive proof that those who he was addressing were being promised life in heaven. But if that was the meaning of Paul’s words, then the ‘sheep’ of Matthew 25:34-36 must also have a heavenly calling, for, as Paul said, ‘Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.’ So, the sheep cannot possibly inherit the Kingdom as flesh-and-blood if Paul was talking about a heavenly hope at First Corinthians Chapter Fifteen.

Could it be that Paul was writing about something other than a heavenly resurrection at 1 Corinthians 15:35-54?

Notice that there is a problem with the time frame mentioned by Paul… when ‘the trumpet’ blows and ‘the dead’ are raised.’ In Revelation Chapters Nineteen and Twenty we learn that the time when ‘the dead’ are raised comes after the ‘marriage of the Lamb’ and after the battle of Armageddon. Look up those Chapters and read the sequence of events yourself if you doubt this.

So, since God’s righteous servants are never referred to as ‘the dead’ in the Bible, it appears as though Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 15:49-54 may be referring to all who are faithful, regardless of their hope.

Also notice that whereas Paul spoken spoke unsurely of his resurrection to an ‘upward calling’ at Philippians 3:11-14, he did speak very positively about his hope that he would receive some sort of a resurrection in First Corinthians Chapter Fifteen. What sort? Well, read what Paul had just written about the resurrection just a few verses earlier (in 1 Corinthians 15:35-38), ‘Now, some [are sure to] ask, Just how will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they return in?’ You senseless person! Those who plant [seeds] know that the [seeds] can’t live unless they die first. And what you are planting isn’t the body that it’s going to become – it is just a naked grain of wheat, or whatever. God will give it whatever body He wishes, the same as He gives each seed its body.’

So, what was Paul saying here? He was saying that the types of bodies we will receive in the resurrection won’t be decided until after we die, thus it appears as though he was discussing both resurrections (as heavenly bodies and earthly bodies).

However, he went on to say (at 1 Corinthians 15:42-45), ‘That’s how the resurrection of the dead is. It is planted in a decaying condition and it is raised clean. It is planted without honor, but it is raised in glory. It is planted as weak, but it is raised in power. It is planted as a human body, and it is raised as a body of breath (Spirit). If there’s a human body, there’s also one of breath. As it is written, The first man Adam became a living human. However, the last Adam became a breath (spirit) that brings life.’

So, isn’t Paul saying that humans will be resurrected as breaths (or spirits) here?

Well, let’s look at the words that are translated as human body in this scripture. The Greek words are soma psychikon, or body soulical. And while these words may be translated as fleshly body, in classical Greek they mean the body of the inner person. So, what the words imply is that the thing that dies is the imperfect (fleshly) person, and it will be resurrected not as a spirit, but in the perfect body of a spiritual person. That this may be the correct meaning is verified by what Paul had just said (at 1 Corinthians 15:42), ‘It is planted in a decaying condition and it is raised clean.’

So, can these words of Paul be speaking of an earthly resurrection also? Yes, because those faithful who die with an earthly hope are obviously resurrected clean and spiritual, not in a decaying condition. They will no longer be living as fleshly people, but as spiritual people.

For example, notice how Paul’s words, ‘The dead will be raised clean,’ and ‘Death is swallowed in victory’ match with the promise of an earthly resurrection found at Revelation 20:13, 14, where we read, ‘Death and the grave gave up those dead in them, and ‘Death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire.’

But, how would it be possible for humans (as Paul said) to ‘bear the image of the Holy One?’ Don’t those words imply that faithful humans will be given bodies like God and live in the heavens?

Well, notice the words that were once used to describe Adam, as found at Genesis 1:27 (LXX), ‘So, God made man. He made him in the image of God.’

As you can see, Adam started out by bearing the image of the Holy One (God) as a human here on the earth. And he lost this image for future generations by his sin in Eden. So, it appears as though bearing ‘the image of the Holy One’ is a gift that men will regain here on the earth.

However, Paul’s words (that the faithful dead will be ‘raised as a body of Breath’ or 'body of spirit') seem to imply that they will be raised as something we have never known before, with a type of spirituality and life that is much greater than anything most of us have conceived.

So, as I promised BR, here are my reasons for suspecting that 1 Corinthians 15:53, 54 isn't just talking about the anointed. It's a talking point, so please discuss it among yourselves.
Interesting topic.

Just a thought, could it be that there are two different "Kingdoms" being referred to?  Notice in Matthew 25:34-36 it says ‘...inherit the Kingdom that has been prepared for YOU..."

But in 1 Cor 15:49-54 it says, ‘Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.’

If the Matthew parable is referring to mankind, perhaps "the Kingdom that has been prepared for YOU" may refer to MAN's Kingdom, not "GOD's Kingdom".???  Something like we refer to "the animal kingdom, the plant kingdom, etc."

With Christian love,

John
Hi HVAC, Just to bring you up to speed, on this DB, most of us pretty much agree with you. Check the threads under "The New Covenant"
First of all, there is the big question of where "Heaven" is located. It could just as well be on Earth as any where. Most of us have ceased using the term "anointed" when referring to the "little flock", it is repulsive. As to what sort of body are we to have, we need not look any further the Jesus himself, who, after being resurected, walked the Earth for 40 days, eating, possibly sleeping, pooping and all, and yet, he was a spirit. A perfect human body will have capabilities we can only imagine. Even in our fallen state, 1/3 of the Angels desired to be like us. We have such little minds:sick: :haha::snack::yuck::shoot:
Yes, the only other answer would be two kingdoms. Is that likely? No, its just a way of trying to get around what the Bible says in order to hold onto someone's old doctrine.

As to the location of "heaven," the word in Greek is ourano, and it really means the sky. So, it isn't likely that this place is on the ground or earth (gr. ges).

On the other hand, where Matthew makes frequent references to the Kingdom of Heaven, Luke quotes Jesus as speaking of the Kingdom of God. So, apparently the terms are synonymous. And in many cases it appears as though Jesus' references to the Kingdom of Heaven (in Matthew) indicate that people would come under its rule rather than going there.

I would assume from e-magine's brief comment that he or she doubts the possibility of humans inheriting heavenly life. And if so, there are some very learned scholars who would agree. And notice that my entry text wasn't really teaching that the other sheep are going to heaven. Quite the opposite; so go back and finish reading if you still think so.

I'll admit that one of the dilemmas in my life is that I no longer have a clear understanding of the hopes that Jehovah offers. For, whereas I once knew everything, after a most extreme examination of the Bible, I am much less sure of what I know to be true.

I would accept the idea that humans weren't offered a heavenly hope, were it not for Jesus' words to his Apostles in the Kingdom Covenant, that they would be where he was.

Also, whereas it has become clear that the wise virgins of Matthew 26 are not the bride class but are only faithful individuals who are invited to the Lamb's wedding banquet, there is still the matter of there being a bride, and my conclusion is that she will be with her husband in the ourano (heaven).

So, I guess that I still believe that 144,000 are going to heaven and that the hope for the rest is to live on the earth. However, the teaching that the Bible was only written for the anointed and there was the cutoff date for their selection, is clearly wrong and based on a rationalization of the fact that there were almost 144,000 in the organization claiming to be the anointed back in 1935.
Hello JW....Welcome to the DB:hibye:

There is a scripture which speaks of seeing Jesus and then we shall know what we will be like...but for now we don't know and won't know until we see Jesus....

I'm going to look up the scripture for this topic you've started...

Take Care

your friend

I can't locate the scripture I have in mind....but it says something like...for now we don't know what we shall be like, but when we see Jesus then we shall know...

Also these scriptures...2 Cor.5:1..For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens 2. For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heavan. .......6.Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.

Philippians 3:20 -21...For our citizenship is in heavan; whence also we wait for a Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory...

I think also about the transfiguration...the bodies manifested by Moses and Elijah...

Just some thoughts.....I find it hard to concieve that most of the NT is written about something other than what would apply to all of us....we can't imagine....just like the scripture says....for now we don't know...but when we see Jesus then we shall know.:heartbeat:

And I also find it hard to accept that all of us as JW havn't been taught to want to see the one who died for all of us....this seems to be a natural desire and longing to be with our dear Lord and see him face to face....think back on all the disciples....they clung to him longed to be with him...in his company...Jesus showed himself to upward of 500 people after his resurrection....and I don't think that only the ones the JW have taught as being the 144,000 should have the desire to be with their Lord....

Also...lets not forget Jesus promise to the criminal next to him

not being dogmatic just questioning and putting some thoughts out there
Hello, my sister, thanks for your input and observations.
There seems to be no question that Paul believed that his hope was heavenly, as was true of many to whom he was writing. For, most 1st Century Christians would prove themselves the anointed by suffering terrible persecution and paying for their faith with their lives. Paul knew this was happening and was going to happen, so he spoke of their hope with some surety. However, the scriptures also indicate that not all proved worthy of this grand hope.
Note what is required of these anointed, according to Revelation 20:4, 5 (2001) - "Next, I saw thrones. And those who sat down on them were the ones who were executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection."
Obviously, not all who have claimed to be the anointed since the 1st Century have met these scriptural requirements.
However, making up the claim that "the Bible was only written for the anointed" and that "they were all chosen by 1935," simply isn't scriptural and there are no "types" to show us that this would happen. So those are just made up stories that are told by people who are making false claims to put themselves a bit higher than the rest.
Thus it appears as though we will all "inherit the kingdom" whether our hope is heavenly or earthly, and we will all put on immortality and incorruptibility, if we remain faithful.
And yes, that is a wonderful hope!
Hello again JW....how are you...

also how can we listen unquestioningly to the voice of someone who is not yet judged by Jesus to be faithful....does this makes sense to you and all here? In fact we have been warned to not do that...yes we do need someone to take the lead...but not to the point we are not allowed to question and disagree....just because we don't agree with a certain understanding does not mean we can't have unity in our love for Christ and for the Father....we must be allowed to use our own conscience.

Also brother what are your thoughts on ALL who are disciples of our dear Lord..Christ Jesus to have a desire to see him face to face and be with him?

Take Care

Sandi
Didn't Adam and Eve speak face-to-face with Jesus in the first paradise?
Hi JWHVACR

Going along with your thoughts are what Jesus said about those who would be resurrected and would not marry but would be like angels. I believe he was talking about people with an earthly hope because the example the Scribes gave was of a man that died before Christ even offered the Heavenly hope.
Good thought, my brother. However, it was also before he opened the way for a resurrection.
Greetings and welcome!

Very good observations! It's all about the earth, I believe one of the main reason we have a hard time seeing that is because we feel so far away from God right now, so we think we have to 'go' somewhere to be closer to him. However look at how close YHWH was to Jesus and he was here on earth.

For myself a very powerful point which help me understand this, is that we as Christians have the same hope as Abraham.

Digging
I don't believe Adam and Eve talked with Jesus, YHWH talked face to face with Adam.

Digging
Hi Jw...I never considered them talking face to face with Jesus...only understood them to converse with Jehovah:confused:

Also....Jackie/digging...how have you been....what do you think this scripture is talking about...John 14 2-3 There are many rooms in my Fathers house,Iwould not tell you this if it were not true,I am going there to prepare a place for you, After I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you with me, so that you may be where I am.

Jesus also told the criminal he would be with him in paradise.....

I won't be dogmatic in my understandings , but want to keep my mind and heart open...as when we close our minds , we just don't learn anything...so if I come across that way...it's not my intention to...

Take Care

your friend
Well, if he was the one dealing with Israel in Jehovah's name (as he himself indicated), and he is God's Word or spokesman, then he was likely the one dealing directly with Adam and Eve in Jehovah's name.
In the writings of several of the Prophets, for example, if you read them closely you will see that they say that they were speaking to Jehovah, but the spiritual person speaking to them often quoted Jehovah, so he was likely an angel who was carrying Jehovah's message.
The same was true of the the angels who appeared to Abraham before the destruction of Sodom. Abraham referred to at least one of them as Jehovah, and Jacob wrestled all night with someone he called Jehovah. In fact, the name Israel means contender with God. Yet, "no man can see God and live."
Ah, then you believe that all go to heaven?
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