At Matthew 24:45-47 (2001), Jesus asked the question, ‘Who really is the faithful and sensible slave who his master put over his house servants to give them provisions at the proper time?’ Then he went on to say that, this ‘slave’ would be ‘blest if he’s found doing that when his master arrives.’ And the reward for providing for the Lord’s house servants would be, ‘He will put him over all his possessions.’
When does this arrival of the Lord happen, and when does he find the ‘faithful and sensible slave’ (the ‘doorkeeper’ in Mark and the ‘faithful house manager’ in Luke) giving ‘his house servants’ their ‘provisions?’ Well, in all three Gospel accounts his arrival is said to be ‘at an hour that you don’t think to be it.’ In fact, Mark 13:32 proceeds this prophecy with the words, ‘Nobody has known that day or the hour – neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, just the Father.’
So, this time when the ‘slaves’ are recognized and put in charge of the Master’s ‘possessions’ appears to happen at Jesus’ arrival (gr. elthon) to bring God’s Kingdom to the earth, not to the earlier period when he is near (gr. parousia). That this is the time of his arrival (which apparently corresponds to the time of Armageddon), not to the period that leads up to Armageddon, is attested to in all three Gospel accounts.
Even the placement of this portion of the prophecy in Matthew’s account – after the ‘great time of difficulty’ and after Jesus’ coming – testifies that this is when his recognition of the ‘faithful and sensible slave’ occurs... not in 1914, 1918, or 1919.
In Mark the Thirteenth Chapter, we find the same account as in Matthew 24, 25, but with slightly different words and in an abbreviated form. Here Jesus says (Mark 13:32-37):
‘Nobody knows that day or hour… not the angels in heaven or the Son; just the Father. So, stay awake and keep watching, because you don’t know the time when he’s coming. It’s like a man who, before leaving his house and traveling abroad, instructed each of his slaves just to go on doing their jobs; but he commanded his doorkeeper to stay awake. So, stay awake, because you don’t know when the Master of the house is coming – whether it’s late, or at midnight, or at rooster crowing, or early in the morning – so that when he arrives suddenly, he doesn’t find you sleeping. What I’m saying to you I’m saying to everyone; Stay awake!’
The point that Jesus was making here is that those who are in charge of his slaves should always be alert and watching for his arrival, and never allow themselves to fall asleep to this responsibility.
In Luke’s account, more is added to Jesus’ prophecy. Luke 12:47, 48 says, ‘The slave who knows what his master expects and still doesn’t prepare [the food] or do what he wants, will be lashed with a whip many times. Now, the one who doesn’t understand and does things that he deserves a whipping for will be beaten with few. So, all those who are given much will have a lot expected of them. And those who are put in charge over much will have a lot asked from them.’
These additional words of Jesus emphasize the need for the ‘house managers’ to continue providing nourishing spiritual food of the deeper things of God’s Word, not just ‘Sunday sermons’ on ‘repenting over bad deeds, having faith in God (the 'Know Jehovah' book?), or learning about baptisms, [spiritual] appointments, the resurrection of the dead (anything here would be 'new truths' and quite refreshing), or the judgments on this age (more about Armageddon?)’ (Hebrews 6:1, 2)… the ‘milk’ of the word of God, which is what the Society has been dispensing for more than 40 years now.
Are the Faithful Slaves the Anointed?
Although many think that the Anointed (gr. Christon or Christs) are those who will rule with Jesus in heaven (an it may be true), and that they are the Lamb’s Bride, it doesn’t appear as though being invited to the Lamb’s wedding banquet is the same as being invited to heaven to become the bride (remember, he first takes his bride, then he returns to his slaves to select who will enter the banquet).
Notice that in some ancient texts (including the Aramaic texts), Matthew 25:3 says that the bridegroom came with his bride, so the virgins were clearly not the bride class.
Thus this wedding banquet could be an earthly affair, and those who are invited are the slaves who have proven alert, prepared, and faithful, and will then be given earthly privileges and assigned as rulers according to their abilities and the amount of increase each has returned for the ‘coins’ that Jesus has entrusted to them.
Realize that these are suggested outcomes and that they are open to debate, not my dogmatic teachings, so keep it cool.
Hi,
I think you will find if you read those accounts carefully that they speak clearly of two separate events. One is the "coming" of Christ. The other is the "revealing" of Christ. We are told many signs to let us know when the "coming" of Christ will be. We are also given the date via Nebuchadnezzar's prophetic 7 years of madness which point us to the "coming" of Christ to Kingly Rule. But the "revealing" of Christ is a different matter. This is a separate event and it is this "revealing" that Christ says we no not the day nor the hour.
People often blur these two events into one but if you read the passages they are clearly distinct. Also a comparison is made to the days of Noah. These lasted 120 years so it is not beyond the realms of likely hood that the 'days of the Son of Man' would last a similar length of time.
So we have the "coming" of Christ which introduce the "days of the Son of Man". During these 'days' most people fail to acknowledge we are in the time of Christ's presence (coming) until he is finally "revealed" at a day and an hour we do not expect. When he is finally "revealed" the world will realise that he came as a "thief in the night" - he was here but we did not see him.
hope that helps
Hi JWHVACR
Yes, I find myself pretty much in agreement with you. To call oneself "the faithful and discreet slave" is a misnomer.
It's like calling oneself a member of the "great crowd". Well, the great crowd come out of the great tribulation, so how can anyone be a member of this group unless they've already come out of this tribulation! At best, they are prospective members.
Similarly, in Jesus' illustration, the slave is called faithful and discreet because he is found to be such upon his master's arrival. At best, therefore, the members of the Watchtower Society are prospective slaves who will be judged faithful and discreet.
Unfortunately, the WTS have turned a simple illustration into a complex theology of presence, coming, revealing etc - due to their need to cling on to 1914 as Jesus' invisible presence.
Jesus' illustrations show how simple it all is: the master goes away, appoints slaves to feed his domestics, and then comes back at an hour the slave does not expect, and rewards his slaves according to their deeds.
Anyone who is in a position of Christian "authority" should take this illustration to heart, because it applies to them. If you are feeding Jesus' sheep (as Peter was asked to do, for instance) then you will be judged on the basis of the standards laid out in this illustration.
If all elders came to realize that, perhaps they would perform their roles with a bit more fear and trembling.
:beatoverhead:
Well, I would say "could be described as faithful and discreet, because their current record doesn't look too good.
And as for elders; Anyone who puts themselves in authority over the sheep holds a fearsome responsibility, and I don't think that many of them appreciate the magnitude of that. In Israel all the Prophets showed that Jehovah's anger was directed toward the unrighteous leaders, so they bore the brunt of His rage.
If they could see the grand privilege that is held out to them in the future (and few truly understand this), they would deal with the sheep far more tenderly and with much greater humility, for many will be cast outside and gnashing their teeth. (see post 17 below)
Say, where did you get your great emotecons?
Due primarily to oppressive, burdensome religious conditioning, the vast majority of people miss the entire point. "Faithful and discreet," ... "Faithful and wise," ... et al are DESCRIPTIVE of the "servant" in question; who potentially can be ANY of us.
Jesus Christ, himself, of course, was (is) the ultimate "faithful and true witness." (Revelation 3:14.) As we strive to "follow his steps closely" (1 Peter 2:21), we can achieve an ever-increasing measure of faithfulness, discretion, and godly wisdom.
Descriptive; not titular. No "office," ... "title," ... or ... "governing capacity" ... was ever mentioned; or, even implied.
I beleive when u post u need to look at the {get more} for more smileys
Hello guys ...:hibye:
I would just like to add a question or two to the thought processes going on here ...:P
Just 'who' give out 'food' ...? Is it 'just' HQ and the 'books' we receive ...?
When JW's go from 'door to door' ... to speak about the hope they have ... are they not 'giving out food' ...? Some of the 'food' which they speak about may NOT be what is 'printed' in the books ... but is rather directly from God's Word ... and in THEIR OWN way of thinking and speaking ...
So, this 'faithful and discreet slave' ... can also be said to be ALL of us can it not ... that if we are doing what we can to dispense spiritual food to others ... then we are doing our God-given assignment ... and hopefully doing it in a 'faithful' ... the best of our circumstances ... and discreet ... or thoughtful and skillful way so as to attract all lovers of God to follow our Lord Christ Jesus and come to love our God and his Son with all their heart, soul, mind and strength ...
Just a wee thought ...:giverose: now you can go on uninterupted ...:funnyface:
By the way JW ... it is as TD says ... on your left you will see emoticons ... just click on them and they will appear in your post ... if you hit 'get more' you will see a whole page come up after you maximize the screen ...
You should close the window after each post as it doesn't seem to work on a new posting ... just the one you are working on at the time ...
Clear as mud ...;)
Lots of luv ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:
Due primarily to oppressive, burdensome religious conditioning, the vast majority of people miss the entire point. "Faithful and discreet," ... "Faithful and wise," ... et al are DESCRIPTIVE of the "servant" in question; who potentially can be ANY of us.
Jesus Christ, himself, of course, was (is) the ultimate "faithful and true witness." (Revelation 3:14.) As we strive to "follow his steps closely" (1 Peter 2:21), we can achieve an ever-increasing measure of faithfulness, discretion, and godly wisdom.
Descriptive; not titular. No "office," ... "title," ... or ... "governing capacity" ... was ever mentioned; or, even implied.
Amen to that ISOMAM!
It is as Jesus said, they have placed themselves at Moses chair and put burdons on peoples shoulders due to their doctrines of men, whether it's the Popes or members of the Governing Body of The Watchtower Society and all what they have afforded is strictly in harmony with Jehovah's opposer, since he is the father of murderers and liers, having created bloodguilt, by their doctrines of men by Mind Control, theats and sanctions, without a spark of love, postulating that they are reprentatives of God, speaks with God's mouth and look at themself as Vicars for Christ Jesus.
They have created a man made organisation themselves and are chosen by majority election, wheter there comes smoke out of the chimney or not, dangerous for themselves and others who believe their nonsense and definetely not discreete, others than hiding them self in the Vertican or in the Tower, with body guards, when they goes public, to protect their own loved stuss.
It is very interesting to read and notice that Jesus warns us for an evil slave(s) in Matthew 24:48-51 and ones have to remember that all the articles didn't have its origin from GB members or the anointed, but from the Rank and File!
Christian love to all of you.
[b]Talkactive.
Hi Wibble, you said, "Nebuchadnezzar's prophetic 7 years of madness which point us to the "coming" of Christ to Kingly Rule."
What scriptural reason do you have for connecting neb's 7 years to Christs coming? I can't find any.
Also, how is it possible for anyone to be "present", before he "comes". Why do so many translators, while acknowledging that a literal translation of "parousia", is "presence", translate it in Mat.24:3 as coming? Because one of the meanings of "parousia" is "coming". That's why his disciples asked for a sign of it, so that they would know before hand, when they could be expecting him. At the time of his being present, they would not need a sign. The events listed in Math. 24, 4-26, are clearly not signs of his presence, but precursors of it, because he states openly what the "sign" of his soon-to-be  "presence" is in vs. 29. This 'sign" occures after the Great Trib:
NWT reads, 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The WTS acknowledges that this 'sign" will be a visible , celestial event.
It is not incorrect to translate "parousia" as "presence", but is is incorrect to alter the meaning of the context of a scripture. The disciples were obviously wanting to know, how they could tell when his presence was near or forth coming, so they could be ready.....the way I read..e-m :read:
That way, true individual "slaves" could be faithful, as well as discrete, in their alerting others of his imminate "presence'.
Jesus Christ has been with mankind scince the beginning of humans being placed into the garden....as he was with His Father and he helped create all things....he is with us now.....hence the scripture which says where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am in their midst....also the other scripture I have in mind is Jesus stating he is with us till the conclusion....
We are waiting for Him to take action and according to John 5:22...do the resurrecting and the judging...
Right at present Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Throne....we are waiting for him to stand up:thumbup:
Hi Wibble, you said, "Nebuchadnezzar's prophetic 7 years of madness which point us to the "coming" of Christ to Kingly Rule."
What scriptural reason do you have for connecting neb's 7 years to Christs coming? I can't find any.
First we need to look to the prophecies the exiled Jews were waiting on at the time Nebuchadnezzar's dream occurred. Essentially they were living under the 'curse' of the 'malediction' given to them before they entered the promised land:
Le 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Le 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
Le 26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
Le 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
So the divine punishment according to the law given on Mt Sinai was clearly destined to last for "7 times". Also each of these scriptures from the malediction pointed to the prophetic period of exile in Babylon. So it is right at the beginning of this prophetic period of "7 times" that Nebuchadnezzar had his dream which explained a good deal about what the "7 times" actually were.
The dream tells us that the "7 times" are indeed a measure of time. They were equated with "7 years" that Nebuchadnezzar would be removed from Kingly power. Also Nebuchadnezzar was going to 'act out' of 'physically manifest' an outworking of the prophecy of both the malediction and his dream. How does this help us to understand the duration of the "7 times"?
There are other occasions in the Bible where someone physically 'acted out' the outworking of a prophecy. For instance when Ezekiel prophetically bore the iniquity of Israel in a physical manifestation he did so for one day according to each year of the punishment.
Eze 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
So there is a pattern set when prophetically 'acting out' one of Jehovah's punishments: A day for a year.
It is clear from Nebuchadnezzar's dream that in the outworking of the "7 times", sovereignty over Jehovah's people would be removed. The malediction began with Nebuchadnezzar's overthrow of the sovereign nation of Israel. This was Jehovah's Kingdom on earth! Nebuchadnezzars dream (a reflection of the punishment from the malediction) foretold that sovereignty would be removed for "7 times".
Now Nebuchadnezzar is 'acting out' the prophetic punishment on the Jews, he is thus representative of them during the 7 year period during which he 'acts out' the prophecy. So the "7 times", being 'acted out' over "7 years" fall under the 'day for a year' prophetic measure.
Likely the Jews of that time did not figure out the full implications of all this. In particular the duration of the '7 times' probably eluded them. And no one would have wanted to believe they would last more than a 2000 years! They would however have been enlightened as to the fact that they would not be blessed with another King in the line of David before the "7 times" had elapsed.
This is why when Jesus appeared his disciples thought that the malediction was about to end. This is the one event all the Jews had been waiting for since the exile in Babylon.
So Nebuchadnezzars dream served to explain that the "7 times" spoken of in the malediction would end when a new King would come to power over Jehovah's people.
Also, how is it possible for anyone to be "present", before he "comes". Why do so many translators, while acknowledging that a literal translation of "parousia", is "presence", translate it in Mat.24:3 as coming? Because one of the meanings of "parousia" is "coming".
First you make a mistake. The 'presence' of Christ is the same as the 'coming' of Christ. They are the same event - just different translations of the same word. The second event is the "revealing" of Christ. So the "coming" of Christ is his "presence", whichever word you choose to use they are equivalent. After this there is the "revealing" of Christ.
So yes he can "come" before he is "revealed". How? Because he "comes" as a "thief in the night". He does not show himself until later when we is "revealed".
Now the reason so many translators translate "parousia" (meaning presence) as "coming" is because they have blurred the distinction between the "coming (parousia)" and the "revealing" which are two separate events.
Because they see only one event they probably feel it is not important to make a distinction between the two and so use "coming" as a good "blending compromise" to convey the thought of 'being present' and 'being revealed (for all to see)' all rolled into one.
However when you realise that we have two separate events it becomes important to keep the original wording of the Bible to more accurately portray the intended meaning.
So the difference between the Greek words "parousia", "erchomai" and "apokalupto" is actually critical. Interesting the word translated as "revealed" in Luke 17:30 ("apokalupto") is where we get the word "Apocalypse" from. It literally means "an uncovering". How can one "uncover" something that was not once "covered"?
The fact is to truly understand these scriptures you must correlate them with Luke's account at Luke 17. When you put both accounts together the distinction between the 'presence (coming)' and the 'revealing' is quite strong.
That's why his disciples asked for a sign of it, so that they would know before hand, when they could be expecting him. At the time of his being present, they would not need a sign. The events listed in Math. 24, 4-26, are clearly not signs of his presence, but precursors of it, because he states openly what the "sign" of his soon-to-be "presence" is in vs. 29. This 'sign" occures after the Great Trib:
You only see it this way because you see only one event when there are two. His disciples needed a sign before hand because his presence would not be visible, it would be as a 'thief in the night'. Therefore only the signs would tell us that he was 'present' and that he was shortly to be 'revealed'.
NWT reads, 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The WTS acknowledges that this 'sign" will be a visible , celestial event.
It is not incorrect to translate "parousia" as "presence", but is is incorrect to alter the meaning of the context of a scripture. The disciples were obviously wanting to know, how they could tell when his presence was near or forth coming, so they could be ready.....the way I read..e-m :read:
That way, true individual "slaves" could be faithful, as well as discrete, in their alerting others of his imminate "presence'.
Once again your quote from the NWT is about the 'revealing' of Christ. This is when Christ actually reveals himself. He 'comes' visibly. This is why when you translate the word 'parousia' as 'coming' you loose the meaning of when he really does "come" (in a visible way). It is much clearer to talk about "presence" and "coming" or "presence" and "revealing" than it is to talk about "coming" and "coming". That just muddies the waters and leads people away from the clear understanding.
Actually, it's better to speak of his 'nearness' or about his being 'about to come,' because that's how Mark and Luke both rendered Jesus' words. Also, the Aramaic text of Matthew 24:3 (likely an older text) doesn't use the word "presence." There it says "coming." So, whereas 'presence' indicates that he's there, the Aramaic text shows that he's still on the way.