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To fully grasp this issue of Armageddon, we need to understand that Revelation was written much the same way as the book of Daniel—using the same manner of ancient Hebrew language possessing two tenses—that which was perfect and complete and that which was imperfect, incomplete and ongoing.

To illustrate, think of a piece of dynamite with a long fuse. What we presently see is a burning wick progressing toward its ultimate object—a blasting cap wrapped within the contents of an explosive. While some might guess the end result—until we see where the dynamite has been placed, we will never quite understand why it was necessary to light the fuse in the first place.

So as you begin to read Revelation, look for hints of a burning wick leading to a stick of dynamite in the ancient imperfect Hebrew tense—words such as chapter 1:17 where John was instructed to write “things that are—and the things that will take place after these.”

In this manner, the answer to Armageddon’s location and purpose is only hinted at along the way until chapter 11:18 where it is fully understood to resolve the issues of wrathful nations with God’s own wrath. It is to the end that the appointed time for the dead to be judged, reward his slaves the prophets and holy ones and all fearing his name, the small and great—he must first “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

And who are they that are ruining the earth? While it may seem to be us humans, it really goes much deeper, since chapter 12:9 states quite clearly they are those being hurled down to earth—Satan and his angels—they who are “misleading the entire inhabited earth.”

Does Armageddon rid the earth entirely? Well, is dynamite the end of a project? Only if the project is to destroy. But if it is merely to change landscape and clear out what stands in the way—then dynamite is only a means to the end.

To know the true length and present location of the burning Revelation Fuse, we need to continue reading—i.e. what Satan’s past and ongoing “misleading” of nations has resulted in as revealed through chapters13 and14 until chapter 15 says—until “the anger of God is brought to a finish.”

While some think it important to know where the dynamite is located, or that Armageddon is an actual location, chapter 16:14-16 seems to indicate it is of greater importance to know that demon spirits (“inspired expressions” as per NWT) are actually gathering the visible rulers of the entire earth to this great war. In other words, since the entire earth is involved, does it matter where it will be fought? Is it not suffice to know that Armageddon is the dynamite at the end of a long fuse—bringing to ruin “those ruining the earth?”

And while chapters 17 through 19 give in greater detail that which leads up to this world’s explosive end, it is not really until chapter 20 that we see—when the dust settles—the devil incapacitated beneath the rubble (called the abyss.) It is not until the end of a thousand years (the yet-to-be-disclosed period of reparation) do all of the devil’s contentious issues get sorted out and all are tested upon his release. Only then will the words of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 be completely fulfilled:

“But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. When Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life, and then the end will come. At that time Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers, and he will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. Christ must rule until he puts all enemies under his control. The last enemy to be destroyed will be death. The Scripture says that God put all things under his control. When it says "all things" are under him, it is clear this does not include God himself. God is the One who put everything under his control. After everything has been put under the Son, then he will put himself under God, who had put all things under him. Then God will be the complete ruler over everything.” (New Century Version)

sw,

Armageddon is a place where the kings of the earth are misled into gathering.

Who are the "kings of the earth"?

They are the anointed ones, the saints.

Satan's main target is not the nations.

Satan wants to hit the bullseye.

Anointed Christians.

Revelation 1
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”


In Christ

abe

That's right, Abe. The "anointed" are going to be fighting Jesus Christ:

"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army." (Rev 20:19)

I don't think so.

Smouldering Wick, interesting post.

Personally, I believe it does matter.

In fact, I would suggest that the location is one of the reasons for them gathering there.

What happens just after their gathering?

"And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred, and a great earthquake occurred such as had not occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive an earthquake, so great. And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the anger of his wrath." (16:19)

Now, compare this to Revelation 11, which also talks about a "great city":

"And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled."

Which city was their Lord impaled? The answer is Jerusalem.

Notice what happens shortly afterwards:

"And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and a tenth of the city fell." (11:13)

There are two great cities in Revelation. The great city where the Lord was impaled (Jerusalem), and the great city that had a kingdom over the kings of the earth (Rev 17:18)... the capital and mistress of the world in John's day.

They were literally the capitals of rival kingdoms.

The fall of Jerusalem, as commemorated in Revelation 11 in such vivid and rich Jewish imagery, was a microcosm for the penultimate battle ahead.

But there is only one logical place where this can come to a head.

A great city in which our Lord was once impaled? A great city which is even now split between the three world religions?

In the words of Rolph Harris... can you guess what it is yet?

Besides, Zechariah as good as tells us, anyway. Jehovah has unfinished business to attend to one day:

"And Jehovah will certainly go forth and war against those nations as in the day of his warring, in the day of fight. And his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive trees, which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east; and the mountain of the olive trees must be split at its middle, from the sunrising and to the west. There will be a very great valley; and half of the mountain will actually be moved to the north, and half of it to the south. And YOU people will certainly flee to the valley of my mountains; because the valley of [the] mountains will reach all the way to Azel. And YOU will have to flee, just as YOU fled because of the [earth]quake in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah. And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy ones being with him." (Zechariah 14:3-5)

And after Jehovah sends out living waters from Jerusalem, this is what happens:

"The whole land will be changed like the Arabah, from Geba to Rimmon to the south of Jerusalem; and she must rise and become inhabited in her place, from the Gate of Benjamin all the way to the place of the First Gate, all the way to the Corner Gate, and [from] the Tower of Hananel all the way to the press vats of the king. And people will certainly inhabit her; and there will occur no more any banning [to destruction], and Jerusalem must be inhabited in security."

I'd love to read a spiritual interpretation of THAT one :)

There is a reason for the specific location of the battle of Har-Magedon ... Jehovah intends one day to use at as His capital again!

"And it must occur [that], as regards everyone who is left remaining out of all the nations that are coming against Jerusalem, they must also go up from year to year to bow down to the King, Jehovah of armies, and to celebrate the festival of the booths." (Zech 14:16)

Should be fun :D

So anyway, I think it matters in a big way. It completes the last part of the jigsaw puzzle that is the prophetic scriptures.

I guess it's not essential to know... but it sure makes sense of a whole bunch of prophecies that most Christians prefer to pretend don't exist.

Hi Smoldering-wick!

Wow!

I too have researched this theory, I believe there is something to it.

Your comment:

While some think it important to know where the dynamite is located, or that Armageddon is an actual location, chapter 16:14-16 seems to indicate it is of greater importance to know that demon spirits (“inspired expressions” as per NWT) are actually gathering the visible rulers of the entire earth to this great war. In other words, since the entire earth is involved, does it matter where it will be fought? Is it not suffice to know that Armageddon is the dynamite at the end of a long fuse—bringing to ruin “those ruining the earth?”

Sage:

Please take the time to read my conclusions in chapter 11 in my book 'world order in the new millennium'.

Scroll down to page 249 and read the chapter on armageddon.

Check and see how close we are on our conclusions.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlvI2MY...e&q&f=true

The Sage!

Zechariah 12:9, 10

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

What a day it will be when the scales over the eyes of Judah shall be removed when he will be woken from the long slumber will be shown the Son of God impaled on dead tree in the scorching sunrays of a cruel April Day.

They will remember the death of the first-born right from Abraham, to the Egyptians.
And tears will roll down their eyes, their hearts of stone will finally be turned into a heart of a man.

Will they forgive Him of all the hurt and humilation they have borne over the last two thousand years?

The Father ofcourse will accept Judah with open arms and tell His servants to bring the costliest robe and put upon His wayward Son Judah.

In that the elder brother the church will be annoyed with the Father at the love and attention lavished on the younger debauched one but the Father will reply with love and console his hurt too.:heartbeat:

Amen!

Haha... the Prodigal Son parody, applied to Jews and Christians.

Never thought of it like that.

Excellent! :thumbsup:

It sure does appear that way, but unfortunately this is a leap, a false assumption. Revelation, as you know, is a highly cryptic book. Why give such a cryptic clue for such an obviously easy answer as "Jerusalem"? Egypt, in the allegorical interpretation of the Bible, represents the EARTH. Remember the "greatest cedar in the Garden of God" from the book of Ezekiel? Also, remember when the KON in Daniel 11 rules over all the riches of Egypt? The banksters have been controlling the economy of the entire planet.

Surely Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem but he was ALSO crucified on the EARTH. Now this might not seem that important, but this is signifying that the entire earth is "Sodom", corrupt, separated, albeit temporarily, from God. These are Creative principles that eludes the mind of Western man because he is, for the most part, incapable of abstract thought.

If this is the case, then Armageddon is an earth-wide issue, just as the Watchtower has taught, and ALL references to Jerusalem in the Bible are referring to the WORLD, and therefore OURSELVES ("spiritual Jews"), just as we have always suspected. Now it's nothing personal, but Preterism is false because the Bible is an allegory, by which it can be clearly interpreted. If it's literal, then why isn't it clear what the interpretation is, literally? :)

If we're ever going to have this long-awaited "insight" and Holy Spirit being "poured out", we're gonna have to think outside the Western box a little more, because they (the Vatican, mostly) have truly literalized everything, to our detriment.

Peace,
Jimmy C.

Interpretum,

Then perhaps you did not think Judas Iscariot was "anointed".

Or perhaps you don't think Paul was writing about a future "son of destruction" existing immediately before Jesus Christ returns.

Or maybe you just don't have faith in what Jesus Christ said:

Matthew 24
“But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.


Revelation 18:9
“And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

Or, perhaps you don't think the "anointed" will be "kings of the earth".

1 Corinthians 4:8
YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.


Or, perhaps you just don't want to believe the bible because it undermines your own theories.


In Christ

abe

Hi Jimmy

I'd agree with you if I were simply using one or two verses. But the whole chapter is strongly alluding to Jerusalem.

For example, notice the virtually identical language here...

"...do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months." (Rev 11:2)

... to Jesus' words:

"...they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

This is not coincidence, but I will speak more about this below.

I think we need to clarify something. Revelation means "uncovering", "disclosure". It is an unsealed book. "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book." (Rev 21:10)

It was not meant to be cryptic for Christians. It was meant to be understood, and applied - even for his immediate audience. "Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near." (Rev 1:3)

I don't accept the premise that the account is trying to be "cryptic". The immediate audience would have recognized the references, from the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus.

It is only supposedly cryptic when we ignore the historical context of Revelation.

Is there a definitive "allegorical interpretation"? If it's allegorical, how do you know it represents the Earth?

Besides, why symbolize the Earth as a city? What, then, does it mean when it says "the cities of the nations fell" (Rev 16:19)? They sound like CITIES to me.

Sounds like the Robert King school of thought. I used to enjoy his essays ... but ultimately, they are private interpretations of scripture.

"And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not prove to be an escapee. And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Lib´y·ans and the E·thi·o´pi·ans will be at his steps."

Why cannot "the land of Egypt" mean... the land of Egypt?

Question for you... if the author had MEANT the land of Egypt, what phrase would he use here?

Hmm. Western man is perfectly capable of abstract thought. Let's face it, the Watchtower Society (a totally Western institution) came up with all kinds of "Creative principles" for interpreting. Don't you know the plagues of Revelation 9 represent the Witnesses with their stinging literature, for example?

Don't worry ... I don't take it personally :D

However, to say "the Bible is an allegory" is a HUGE over-generalization.

The Bible is a collection of many different pieces of writing. It is NOT of one style. Some of it is recounting history, some of it is quoting letters, some of it is poetry, some is prophecy. How can you say "the Bible is an allegory"? That's like saying, "all blondes are dumb".

Besides, the so-called "interpretation" is often VERY clear.

For example, when Jesus said...

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains."

That sounds perfectly clear.

Yet look at how much these plain words of Jesus have been distorted to fit private interpretations. Oh, Jerusalem in this "modern day" (what?) means Christendom (huh?)... or heavenly Jerusalem (or the WORLD) don't you know.

Perhaps THAT'S the reason so many people think it isn't clear.

(On a related note, have you heard the WTS' latest interpretation of that ooh so complex "this generation" doctrine? Aren't they on their third or fourth attempt to interpret it now?)

If I recall my history... holy spirit has already been poured out. All it needed was for Jesus to return to heaven... and then the prophecy of Joel (about the spirit being poured out) was fulfilled.

Why are people still waiting? If you want the Holy Spirit, you only have to ask for it sincerely.

You don't think so?

Think about this:

Revelation 1:4
John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia:
May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

The Apostle John includes himself to be a "king of the earth".


Revelation 5:9
And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

king of the earth --- kings over the earth <------ same difference!

(Look it up in different translations)

and with your blood you bought persons for God <--- anointed kings!

So yes!

Anointed ones will battle against Jesus Christ:

Revelation 20:19
"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army."


Who deceives the anointed kings of the earth into battle against Jesus Christ?


Revelation 16:14
They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”

Who does Jesus Christ want to stay awake?

answer: The anointed kings of the earth!

What happens if they don't stay awake?

They will fight against their faithful anointed brothers:

Matthew 24:48
“But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, (Look! I am coming as a thief Rev16) 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be. ( that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness Rev16)


So will the faithful anointed kings of the earth battle against the evil anointed kings of the earth?


Yep!


Revelation 17:12
“And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful (faithful slave Mt24) with him [will do so].”


So have the anointed kings of the earth not yet received their kingdom?


Revelation 1
To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.


So when do the anointed kings of the earth receive their kingdom?


Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”


So will the evil slave hate the faithful slave, their own brothers!


Yep.


Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”


Who is going to be put to shame?

Revelation 16:14
They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”


The anointed kings of the earth, the evil slave will be put to shame.


There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.


In Christ

abe

There are MANY interpretations of the Bible, and as a lover of the book, I find them ALL fascinating. Egypt would be the earth in the metaphysical one. Then there is a personal interpretation, where the Bible actually can be superimposed over a human body.... then there are gnostic, kabbalist, Masonic, and theosophical interpretations, and there is really little or no infighting that goes on among these groups. When views differ they don't beat each other up or judge them over it. They simply respect each other's views.

Finally, there is the literal interpretation, or lack of a cohesive one, that has resulted in 40,000-plus denominations and millions upon millions of murders and untold suffering in the name of God and Christ!

The point is, it doesn't really matter what dogma we come up with in interpreting it, it's the effect it has on our lives which is then reflected in how we treat others. LOVE is the key. So if anyone says it doesn't matter what we believe, that is false, because what we believe is manifested in what we do and how we act. If an interpretation doesn't exhude LOVE and respect for the free will of others, it's a FALSE one!

Peace,
Jimmy C.

God teaches LOVE.

1Thessalonians 4:7...

"For God did not call us to impurity but to holiness.
Therefore, whoever rejects this instruction is not rejecting human authority but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
Now you do not need anyone to write to you about brotherly love, since you have been taught by God to love each other.
In fact, you are showing love to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this even more.
Also, make it your goal to live quietly, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we instructed you,
so that you may win the respect of outsiders, and have need of nothing."

:coffeeread:

Yep, the anointed brothers should love each other!

The Apostle Paul knew what was to inevitably happen to them:


Acts 20:25
“And now, look! I know that all of YOU among whom I went preaching the kingdom will see my face no more. 26 Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men, 27 for I have not held back from telling YOU all the counsel of God. 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed YOU overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.


In Christ

abe

Hi Abe

I agree with you ( :thumbup: ) that the "anointed" are kings of the earth at some point, but the two major points of difference are...

(a) who the "anointed" are. Do you still believe the WT's definition, i.e. that there are about 10,000 "anointed" left on earth out of a literal 144,000? I think there's lots of question marks over that interpretation.

(b) WHEN the "anointed" are kings of the earth. You already quoted Paul who effectively saying some were already presumptuously ruling as kings. Isn't that the point of 1 Corinthians 4:8?

So while the "anointed" ARE to rule as kings, the question is WHEN.

"I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Rev 20:4)

I understand the parallels you're trying to make, i.e. that the "kings of the earth" in Rev 16 are the false anointed (is that right?).

I still think you are trying to make 1+2=3. The Bible gives plenty of examples where the kings of the earth are actual physical rulers, i.e.

For example, in quoting the prophecy of Psalms, the disciples prayed:

"‘Why did nations become tumultuous and peoples meditate upon empty things? The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers massed together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’ Even so, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with [men of] nations and with peoples of Israel were in actuality gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, in order to do what things your hand and counsel had foreordained to occur." (Acts 4:25-28)

Herod and Pontius Pilate were very literally "kings of the earth".

Ultimately, the "anointed" only receive the kingdom of earth when the stone crushes the toes of the statue (Daniel 2), and the wild beast is judged (Daniel 7), aka...

“And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them."

The fact that all the rulerships do not serve and obey them, is evidence this kingdom is not yet ruling on earth.

If God is about to take away these physical kings rulerships, it makes much more sense that it is physical, literal kings of the earth that are going to war at Armageddon... their rulership is literally being taken away from them!

I do get your point... but scriptures other than Revelation reveal that the "stone" needs to literally CRUSH the kingdoms of the world before the holy ones rule. This is not going to happen with some squabble between so-called true and false anointed.

Hi Prodigal Son

This is all great and wonderful, but is it possible any of them are... just plain wrong?

Jesus debated with Pharisees and Sadducess. Did Jesus merely say to them, "Well... I respect both of your views. They are equally valid."

Nope.

To the Sadduccees he said: "You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

To the Pharisees he said, multiple times: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"

Jesus showed that not all interpretations of scripture are equally valid. It's kind of irrelevant whether Masons fight with Theosophists or not... it's Jesus' opinion that matters, really.

(Besides which, Madame Blavatsky of the Theosophical Society is not exactly as tolerant to Jehovah, whom she views as the evil god. I guess it's OK to believe what you want, as long as it isn't the God of the Hebrews.)

No, this wasn't due to "the literal interpretation", this was due to a politico-religious entity claiming authority for itself and then IGNORING Christ and doing its own thing, in the name of Christ. They claimed to be ABOVE scripture, because they were acting (so they claimed) on God's behalf.

I absolutely agree with the love thing, and in many ways love is stronger than doctrine, which is why Peter advocated love and respect for the wives of unbelievers, so that "they may be won without a word through the conduct of [their] wives." (1 Peter 3:1)

Clearly the right kind of behaviour could win a person over to Christ, where theological discussions would not.

However, Jesus, Paul, Peter all warn about false doctrines, even arising from within Christians.

Paul: "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves." (Acts 20:29,30)

Peter: "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves." (2 Peter 2:1)

Clearly, in order to "speak twisted things" and "quietly bring in destructive sects" within Christ's own congregation in order to seduce the disciples of Christ, they would have to sound Christian, and use scriptures.

So love is vital ... but so is sound Christian doctrine.

Love probably trumps everything, but love can be sapped by toxic doctrines.

Just think of JWs who are looking forward to the day when Jehovah will smite 6 BILLION souls out of existence.

But getting back to the point about Revelation 11, since Jesus is the revelator, we should all be striving to gain Jesus' understanding of this book, not our own. It is he that has authority to open the seals, and it's he that opens them... "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals..."

This is the key. It's not the Masons or the Theosophists or Kabbalists who unlock the seals, much as they would live to believe that... it is Jesus Christ who unlocked them.

"Stop weeping. Look! The Lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered so as to open the scroll and its seven seals." (Rev 5:4)

Jesus Christ is the only one that can interpret the seals, and already DID SO.

That is why Revelation 6 is so similar to Jesus' words in his prophecy on the Mount of Olives.

This is not a mere coincidence.

Jesus revealed, on the Mount of Olives, the keys for us to begin our understanding of Revelation.

On the Mount of Olives, he talked about nations and kingdoms against one another, food shortages, his disciples being killed ... the sign of Jerusalem and fleeing from Judea... and then a great tribulation, sun and moon darkening, the tribes of the land beating themselves in lamentation, Son of man coming on the clouds, and gathering his chosen ones from the four winds.

In Revelation, the seven seals present war, food shortages, disciples having been killed told to wait just a little while longer, sun and moon darkening, a great hiding because of the wrath of the Lamb has arrived, the four winds being held back for a sealing to take place out of the great tribulation, and then seven trumpet blasts, four of which are described as great woes, finally culminating in (Rev 11) the temple, the trampling of the holy city by the Gentiles.

Jesus already unlocked Revelation. The interpretation of the seven seals is to be found in the words of Jesus himself.

That is why I conclude Revelation 6-11 is about everything leading up to the fall of Jerusalem, because that's what Jesus was talking about.

I don't really mind if people want to put their own private interpretations on those passages, but Theosophists, Masons, Kabbalists, the WTS ... none of them are Jesus.

It is HIS revelation, and HE opened the seals, nobody else. He has the right to interpret his own prophecy... and that's what he does.

This begs the question... why the NEED then for Revelation, if Jesus revealed it elsewhere?

Because Revelation reveals the finer details of the tribulation that led to the fall of Jerusalem, and it goes well beyond that time... even to the end of the 1,000 years.

Furthermore, it strengthened and fortified those 1st century Christians to realize that everything that was coming upon them... from the vicious burning of the Christians in Rome by Nero, to being forced to offer incense to the emperor, was part of a larger WAR being fought against them by Satan and his wild beast.

It had immediate meaning to them. They didn't read Revelation and think, "Oh, the wild beast is obviously the UN or the New World Order." :D

The wild beast was already on the scene... and killing them!

That is why a form of Preterism is invaluable... because it turns Revelation not merely into an academic discussion, but a book with MEANING to those who received it, and were sacrificing their lives.

That is why John could say: "Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near."

This wasn't a mere passive, theological observation, like we're engaging in here, or like the Masons, Theosophists etc might engage in.

Christians were LIVING OUT the dramas. The wild beast was literally throwing them into prisons, forcing them to worship it.

And while Christians in the first 3 centuries bore the brunt of this, Christians still do in some parts of the world, even today.

Jesus gave Revelation to his followers, as a practical guide for understanding the world... and he already unsealed it.