Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

He had it guarded to keep them from eating from it...

I don't personally think so. I think it was an actual tree, potentially available to the first two human beings, Adam and Eve.

If it were merely a symbol, it would make God's command kind of pointless, or at least somewhat confusing and ambiguous.

I think the whole tree "drama" was set up to teach mankind the ultimate lessons in free will, free choice, consequences, independence etc etc ... but that had to be done based on Adam making a free and simple choice ... eat, or not eat.

We may say, "If I were Adam, I wouldn't have eaten". That's great to say with the benefit of HINDSIGHT.

Adam had no such benefit. He literally did not know good and evil. He had no experience of anything, beyond his garden of paradise.

Therefore, in terms of understanding and wisdom, he was no better than a child.

The serpent likes to claim he taught Adam wisdom ... but in fact, it was God doing so ... by enabling Adam and his offspring to truly understand good and evil ... and therefore true wisdom.

It is a hard lesson, but one in which I think the human race in the future, including I believe a resurrected Adam and Eve, will learn from ... and gain true wisdom and understanding.

None of which would be possible, were the tree merely a metaphor.

Hi there Mad ~
Ah, is this a trick question or what? :dontknow: Truth or dare, . . what's it mean to you?:confused: Or are you just fishin' for other's thinking before you jump in to ridicule one of us us again? Mmmm??? You've already got a website for that anyway. I think it's a pretty cool website, btw, we really do enjoy “thinking people” here as well. It's just that most of us don't bring in an agenda before posting.

Peace brother :rainbow:

Not to confuse the topic, BUT - why can it not be both? A real and literal tree that for all time came to symbolize "life" in the simplest terms? Trees, branches, vines, stumps - all those words are used in the Bible metaphorically and symbolically, describing God, His kingdom, His people, and His Son. "Water", is another one that I think is presented both ways, literally and symbolically. It depends wholly on the context. :D

Something happened, whether it's presented in metaphors and symbols, like Jesus generally teaches, or translated as flat-out literal - something happened! 'The devil's in the details' as they say, so the naked truth is somewhere between the extremes, probably, lol. Balance is precious. ;)

:peace:

what he said. :thumbup:

Thanks for posting that question MadJW :thumbsup:

The Tree of Life represents ancient knowledge (science) that describes (among many other things) how matter is formed from the spiritual realm, which has many different levels. In other words, metaphysics, or the LOGOS in action. Almost every civilization ancient and modern has a Tree of Life and except for Orthodox Christians and a small minority of Jews, not one of them takes it literally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_%28science%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_lif...abbalah%29

Peace,
Jimmy

From the symbolic side of the fence, I would say that the tree of knowledge of good and bad represents basically knowing right from wrong. Its all in the context of the first law ever given to man. The command to not eat from it! So right away from the beginning of Gods relationship with humans we have the concept of law. This wasn't enough on its own however, which is why God didn't want them to eat from that tree straight away. What was missing? Why wouldn't God who is a loving Father not want his kids to learn right from wrong in a comprehensive way straight away? It would be for the same reason that human parents don`t tell their own kids everything about right and wrong before they are ready for it. Two other ingredients are even more vital first. Trust and love! Trust means the same thing as faith and requires a relationship. Love is a prerequisite of trust. All relationships are based on love and trust or they break dow, which is precisely what happened between man and God.

If a child does not trust a parent, he obeys that parents laws out of coercion and fear and that child will rebel the first chance it gets. If on the other hand that child obeys out of love and trust laws from the parent soon become superfluous as all conduct is done from the spirit of love and trust. The laws from the parent act as a framework for teaching deeper values, principles and inner spirit. Character in other words! Deeper knowledge of right and wrong come when the child is ready, as in the case of sex education. At the right time the parent can teach that child depending on its level of maturity. With love and trust becoming deeper parts of the child if it does, such adult facts will not be a fearful thing as much as with the rebellious child. In fact the trusting and living kid will probably get parts of his inheritance from the parent sooner than the rebellious child. All that is required is waiting patiently which requires trust of course. In the end the good child will realize that he already had the full value of his inheritance all along. Love and trust being its value, and in the waiting all blessings in that spirit will come until the child knows there that with the trust and waiting all things will be given to him because as a child of the Father he really already has all things. A complete inheritance!

This of course is the whole point of Christs parable of the prodigal son. It was his take on Genesis story. Scientific knowledge is not required but trust, love and character are required. Jesus is the true vine and tree of life, because he showed what was required in order to receive the full inheritance from our Father. Jesus has become the new tree of life, which is why he specifically is the way to the Father. No flaming swords of judgment required!

Christs teachings of themselves do not get one life because works do not get one into heaven or into life. However Trusting that Jesus is the way specifically is the way because its about trust and love. That then means we copy and follow him and because its done out the correct spirit law becomes obsolete as maturity because eligible for everlasting life.

I defer to Willa; likely BOTH!
Even today, we know "we are what we eat"- and likely the drastic change in diet, when kicked out of Eden added to sin.

THEN, after the flood, when the atmospheric change took place- it plunged IMMEDIATELY, indicating something in it- or passing THROUGH it, ALSO contributed to it!

Jesus contradicted the view that food had anything to do with sin.

Mar 7:14 Then he called to the crowd again and said to them, "Listen to me, all of you, and understand!
Mar 7:15 Nothing that goes into a person from the outside can make him unclean. It is what comes out of a person that makes a person unclean.
Mar 7:16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen!"
Mar 7:17 When he had left the crowd and gone home, his disciples began asking him about the parable.
Mar 7:18 He said to them, "Are you so ignorant? Don't you know that nothing that goes into a person from the outside can make him unclean?
Mar 7:19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and is expelled as waste." (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Mar 7:20 He continued, "It is what comes out of a person that makes a person unclean.
Mar 7:21 For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil thoughts come, as well as sexual immorality, stealing, murder,
Mar 7:22 adultery, greed, wickedness, cheating, shameless lust, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness.
Mar 7:23 All these things come from within and make a person unclean."

Who said it WAS?
Just speculation that SEVERAL elements contributed to Life...and Death!

Hello madjw ... :hibye:

Is this my old friend 'madartist' ...? If so it has been awhile ... welcome back! :cheer:

I hope you have been doing well my brother ... :friends:

I tend to think that the tree is a LITERAL one ...

One of the reasons I feel this is so is reasoning from what is says in Gen. 3:1-3 for instance ... :read::thinking:

(NWT)3 Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?”

So, reasoning on the question posed by the serpent was he not speaking about LITERAL trees here ...? Trees where they were to gain sustenance from?:dontknow:


2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat.

Eve's answer here would seem to indicate that she understand the serpent to mean REAL fruit ... that she would LITERALLY EAT ... :eat::carrot:

3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’”

Then she goes on to explain in pretty good detail and understanding of the 'special' tree ... a tree that was 'off limits' ... according to the word of God!

She didn't seem to differeniate or see that tree as any different from the other ones from which she could eat ... nor did she even seem to have a problem with listening to that instruction up to that point ...

It was only AFTER the 'seed was planted' .. the DESIRE that 'became fertile' and eventually have 'birth to sin' that she was somehow 'missing out' on something that may have been BETTER than what she was already eating that the tree took on 'tempting appearance' to her ...

Gen. 3:6 ...

6 Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it.

The garden in which was Adam and Eve's PRIMARY dwelling ... a place of total security and protection ... being 'walled' and all ... could maybe be likened somewhat to a 'sanctuary' ... saftety from the inhospitable place, FOR NOW, that was outside the garden ...

It seems that one of their was to 'tame' it ... 'beautify' it ... thus EXTENDING the beauty of what was within ...

Could this account have a SYMBOLIC meaning as well ...

Well, if we are to take the scriptures and learn from them the 'deeper things of God' ... I would have to say yes ...

Some of these 'lessons' could be ...

1. Never undervalue the LIGHT of truth from God nor think we need MORE than He offers us!
2. That indeed there are DARK things in the universe, but we should STEER CLEAR of them or reap the consequences of 'playing with fire' ...?
3. That temptations will come our way and we need to remain alert and awake to recognize them and not be fooled by 'false light'.
4. That people can TWIST words of 'truth' and make them a total lie, starting us off on a path that only leads to corruption and death.
5. That NOT ALL KNOWLEDGE is good for us now, as we 'cannot handle it' for whatever reason ...
6. That God only gives us what we need at the TIME ... the scriptures would seem to indicate that this tree WAS APPROACHABLE ... and EDIBLE ... but God had decreed that Adam and Eve were NOT to eat from it ... which doesn't negate the factor that at some FUTURE TIME they MIGHT HAVE ... after having PROVED themselves OBEDIENT CHILDREN ... just as Christ did in the years that came after!

I'm sure I could go on more but I think I've rambled on quite enough for now ..
I guess we could look at it TWO ways ... and derive many lessons from which we should take heed!

Luv to ya'll ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

You implied it didn't you in your post madjw? According to Jesus any change in diet had nothing to do with sin and neither added to it or compounded it. Jesus suggests that the only element that is to do with sin depends not on what is on the outside but the spirit from within. So the fruit of the tree of good and bad did not cause sin or the fall, but their lack of trust in God did, and that came from their hearts and the relationship with God was destroyed and law was put in its place. One doesn't need a relationship with one put under law and a subject of law doesn't need a relationship with the law giver because punishment takes care of all that. Not ideal but it works. Fortunately that time is over despite many churches trying to create the law code in place of a relationship with Jesus all over again. Its easier for them and less risky than a relationship with God. How can they control their congregations if they don`t enforce laws on them and how can the congregations form a relationship with Jesus when they embrace law all over again? They cant!

[quote=Seraphim]
You implied it didn't you in your post? According to Jesus any change in diet had nothing to do with sin and neither added to it or compounded it."

I was talking about why Adam and Eve DIED!
Sin, of COURSE, is the MAIN reason; details show there MAY be others- such as the SUDDEN and DRASTIC drop of the human life-span AFTER THE FLOOD!

Only two things had changed then; the atmosphere...and the diet.

Jesus was not concerned with those, but focused on Faith.

Personally I think that the death is spiritual death rather than literal death.

Heb 9:27 Indeed, just as people are appointed to die once and after that to be judged,

The scientific evidence that environment and diet changed to reduce lifespans is very much lacking, just as is the evidence for a water canopy idea which was never even thought of until relatively recent times.

The evidence from the genesis account is that the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were one and the same tree, for both were at the center of the garden and no command was given to Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of life. So the message is clear that paradise symbolizes a trusting relationship with our Father and from there also life. So that is why Jesus as the new tree is the way and the truth and the life. The way back to paradise and a two way dynamic relationship with God, the truth about good and evil, and then life indefinite. They all come from the same tree, Jesus!