Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

No, Jesus Christ did not lie.

The dead will get to see the judgment throne.

When they are resurrected.

I expect all the people living in Jerusalem in 70ad will be judged.


In Christ

abe

Interpretation,

Nope, the generation who sees all these things will not be taken captive by the nations.

The generation which sees all these things will see the chosen ones gathered together out of all the nations, from the four corners of the earth.

Many of those signs are presently being seen by the generation living on the earth now.


In Christ

abe

OK... you go on believing your version. I'll believe Jesus' version, which says they would.

Besides, Jesus makes very plain elsewhere which generation would have that come upon them... see, for example, Mathew 21 (the illustration of the household and the vineyard), and Mathew 22 (the king's marriage feast, and the destruction of their city)... not to mention Mathew 23 (the woes against the Pharisees and Jerusalem).

By the way, I'm sure you know what happened to the Jews in 70AD was the ultimate fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28, right?

Note Moses' words to the congregation of Israel, shortly before his death:

"For I well know that after my death you will without fail act ruinously, and you will certainly turn aside from the way about which I have commanded you; and calamity will be bound to befall you at the close of the days, because you will do what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah so as to offend him by the works of you hands."

Yes, 70AD was the end of "the close of the days" for the Jewish system of things, as the Jews had the curses of Deuteronomy 28 come upon them, and the blood of the righteous men from Abel to Zechariah came upon them.

The author of Hebrews confirms when the last days would be. Writing about Jesus' death, he says:

"Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own. Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself." (Hebrews 9:25,26)

Yes Abe... the author of Hebrews identified the "conclusion of the systems of things"... the same phrase Jesus used... as the period in which Jesus himself died!

The "conclusion of the system of things" (literally the "end of the age") and "last days" commenced in 33AD, and concluded in 73AD... it lasted one generation, and ended with the Jews having their curse come upon them.

By the way, the reason Jesus gathered the chosen ones in 66-73AD was also to fulfill Moses' words:

"And it must occur that when all these words will come upon you, the blessing and the malediction, which I have put before you, and you have brought them back to your heart among all the nations where Jehovah your God has dispersed you, and you have returned to Jehovah your God and listened to his voice according to all that I am commanding you today, you and your sons, with all your heart and all your soul, Jehovah your God must also bring back your captives and show you mercy and collect you again from all the peoples where Jehovah your God has scattered you. If your dispersed people should be at the end of the heavens, from there Jehovah your God will collect you and from there he will take you." (Deut 30:1-4)

The Christians who escaped the great tribulation from 66AD had literally returned to Jehovah with their hearts (just as John the Baptist, with Elijah's spirit, was preparing)... so Jesus was alluding to Moses' words. These ones were forming the basis of a new city... New Jerusalem... which was to have its temporary residences in the body of Christians on earth, and as a "city" in heaven, until finally it comes back down to earth and is located in its proper place. (Revelation 21:1-4, 9-27)

Interpretum,

Jesus Christs version shows that AFTER the great tribulation they would also see the sign of the son of man coming on the clouds to collect his chosen ones out of all the nations.

So............. the generation who sees all these things will also see the end.

But ..... the generation you are thinking of in 70ad are already dead or taken captive by the nations, not collected out of the nations.

Do you see the disconnect?


In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

Yep, I'll agree that it was the conclusion of the Jewish System of things.

It was also however, the start of the times of the nations, it was the time when Gentiles could now also be reconciled to God and participate in the building of the new Christian temple.

Luke 21
and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
25 “Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (collected OUT of all the nations Mt24) 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.”
29 With that he spoke an illustration to them: “Note the fig tree and all the other trees: 30 When they are already in the bud, by observing it YOU know for yourselves that now the summer is near. 31 In this way YOU also, when YOU see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to YOU, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur.


Most Jews are still captive by all the nations.

When did the nations stop trampling on Jerusalem?

Have we seen that yet?

Has the appointed times of the nations been fulfilled?

Doesn't seem fair if it was fulfilled in 73ad.

The Jews had thousand of years to get it right and the nations only had 40 years?

and

Have the nations seen the son of man coming on the clouds to collect his chosen ones OUT of all the nations.

The generation living in 70ad did not see all those things occurring!

Luke
In this way YOU also, when YOU see these things occurring.

Matthew
when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.


In Christ

abe

Yes, I see the problem you have created with your interpretation.

(1) Earlier you said Mathew 24 and Luke 21 were different accounts. Well, Luke 21 does NOT say he would gather his chosen ones from the nations. Are you suggesting they're actually the same accounts, after all?

(2) When Jesus says "they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory", is it at all possible he is speaking figuratively? Before you answer, please consider another warning Jesus gave, to the women of Jerusalem:

"Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for me. On the contrary, weep for yourselves and for your children; because, look! days are coming in which people will say, ‘Happy are the barren women, and the wombs that did not give birth and the breasts that did not nurse!’ Then they will start to say to the mountains, ‘Fall over us!’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us over!’ Because if they do these things when the tree is moist, what will occur when it is withered?” (Luke 23:28-31)

Clearly no sane person calls for a literal mountain to cover them... mountains are inanimate objects that don't respond particularly well to human speech. This is an expression, and a Jewish one, probably representing going into hiding.

It comes from Hosea 10:8: "And the high places of [Beth-]a´ven, the sin of Israel, will actually be annihilated. Thorns and thistles themselves will come up upon their altars. And people will in fact say to the mountains, ‘Cover us!’ and to the hills, ‘Fall over us!’"

My point is, you cannot read the New Testament effectively without understanding the Jewish idioms and beliefs of the Old Testament.

For example, when you read in Revelation 8:10,11 the third trumpet, and a star falling from heaven called Wormwood, are you expecting that literally? You may have a long wait... wormwood often represented Jewish apostasy in the Old Testament, or was prophesied to be given to the Jews as food (along with poisoned water), for their apostasy. (Jeremiah 23:15)

What I'm saying is, I believe "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" is an expression standing for receiving authority to rule from the Father.

When Jesus said those words to the Sanhedrin, they sentenced him to death because of it. He was claiming to be the "son of man" in Daniel, who approached God's throne:

"I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin." (Dan 7:13,14)

When did Jesus gain that authority?

Here is what he said before he departed from the earth: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." (Mathew 28:18)

It's clear to me, then, that God's kingdom is set up in stages. Jesus had full authority even as far back as 33AD, but clearly did not crush all the kingdoms at that time.

In Revelation 5, we see the Lamb already in heaven, in the midst of God's throne, and the 24 elders singing about bringing persons for God, making them a kingdom and priests, and they are to rule over the earth.

Psalm 2 talks more about this, and the book of Acts quotes part of it as being fulfilled in their day (around 33AD)... see Acts 4:24-30. In that psalm, God talks about installing his King upon Zion... and calling upon the kings to exercise insight, and be corrected, and kiss the son.

My point is, Jesus already received authority to smash nations etc in 33AD... but I'm guessing, for the most part, he hasn't exercised that authority fully yet... perhaps because God's ways are higher than our ways?

Interpretum,

I have already explained that they are second hand accounts of the same account given to four of the Apostles privately.

Matthew, Luke and Mark give second hand accounts of the stuff Jesus Christ said during that same private conversation.

They are not interpretations of what Jesus Christ said.

You are creating your own problem by suggesting that Jesus Christ did not say all those things during the same private conversation.


In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

The scriptures indicate that he would sit at God's right hand after 33ad waiting for the appointed time.

Yes, It does not appear that Jesus Christ has crushed any kingdoms yet.

Even his own kingdom (Christianity) seems completely corrupted at the present time.

Jesus Christ does show that he intends to reconcile his own kingdom first:

Matthew 13
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


I believe the Jews in Jerusalem during 70ad were not in his kingdom (Christians).

Looking at the condition of Christianity in the world today the event Jesus Christ speaks of in Matthew Chapter 13 still needs to occur.

I believe this will happen after the great tribulation and after the appointed times of the nations (Gentiles) is fulfilled.

When the 7th trumpet is blown.

I expect circumstances in the world will then start changing in recognizable ways.


In Christ

Fair comment, and I agree. Would you say they were cast out of the kingdom at that time?

"Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways.’ But he will speak and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’ 28 There is where [your] weeping and the gnashing of [your] teeth will be, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves thrown outside. Furthermore, people will come from eastern parts and western, and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God." (Luke 13:26-29)

Based on the above and other scriptures, I conclude the Jews who died in the tribulation of 70AD (+/- 3.5 years) had been cast out of the kingdom.

OK, it's abundantly clear you think Revelation 11 and the 7th trumpet is the time the kingdom "stone" crushes the "image" (as per Daniel 2)... but I'm curious:

How do you see Revelation 12-19 fitting into your picture?

Clearly there is some overlap... after all, Rev 11 talks about 42 months and 1,260 days... Rev 12 talks about 1,260 days and 3.5 times... and Rev 13 talks about 42 months. I think we can both agree these periods link all three chapters together.

But how and where do they fit together in your picture? Where do the 7 last plagues, Armageddon and the fall of Babylon come in?

As you probably know by now, I don't believe the wild beasts pop up overnight... but as in Daniel, they develop over a long period of time - the first being the Roman empire, which unlike the previous empires, persecuted God's people for a long period of time... and the second being the Papal kingdom, setting up an image of the first beast (the "Holy" Roman Empire) and misleading through signs and its mark (literally the "taw", or T... which Ezekiel 9:4's NWT footnote says was a X, or CROSS).
During the dark ages, no persons could trade without being a Catholic.

In other words, Jesus foretold the developments in the world that would affect Christians for the past 2,000 years... and not in some narrow "window" just for "our day", while ignoring the Christians of previous generations who were not in "our day".

So anyway, back to my question... how do the later chapters (12-19) fit into your picture which sounds like it ends with the 7th trumpet?

BTW... you don't have to quote the scriptures about the 7th trumpet again (either Rev's or Paul's)... I know what they say... I'm interested in where you see chapters 12-19 fitting in to the grand scheme of things from your point of view.

Interpretum,

I don't think they were cast out of Jesus Christs Kingdom at that time because they were never in his kingdom in the first place.

I believe shortly after saying the above in Luke, Jesus Christ still allowed some room for them to become a part of his kingdom which extends right down to our present time:


Luke 13
35 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. I tell YOU, YOU will by no means see me until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name.’”


In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

I believe the wild beasts in Daniel are all entities representing God's kingdom and not entities representing pagan nations.

So I find some room to agree with you in regard to Catholicism.

I believe the ram is a Catholic entity with the larger horn representing Roman Catholics and the smaller horn representing Orthodox Catholicism.

The Book of Revelations appears to be written for the "Kings of the Earth", not for pagan kings but for the saints.

It therefore explains what takes place for them during the Lord's Day.

In regard to pagan events it makes just a small mention no larger than a "drop in the bucket" compared to the rest of the text which is all about Jesus Christ's Kingdom and Satan's effect on that Kingdom during the Lord's Day.

Yes, I believe there is plenty of overlap which when put together helps to unravel the total mystery.

I do not think the Book of Revelation can be read as a long list of contiguous events.

Succeeding chapters often seem to elaborate on the ones which preceded while referencing clues found throughout the entire rest of the bible.

The same kind of thing I often see happening in the Old Testament.



In Christ

abe