02-22-2007, 01:38 AM
What part does the holocaust play in prophcey? Im sure many during that time felt it was the end, and it seems it should have been? Has there ever been anything so horrific?
02-22-2007, 01:38 AM
02-22-2007, 09:16 AM
Hi Jon
There are two prophetic passages in the Bible which, for me, suggest it could be connected with the holocaust:
"And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate." (Daniel 9:27)
This is a very intriguing passage. The prophecy foretells the city (Jerusalem) and the holy place (the Temple) being ruined and desolated by a leader that is to come (namely, the Romans).
Verse 27 quoted above describes the desolation itself... it says, "until an extermination", the thing decided upon (i.e. desolation! - see verse 26) will be poured out upon the one lying desolate (i.e. Jerusalem and the Temple).
Could the phrase "until an extermination" be a reference to the Holocaust? Certainly it was only after those horrible events that Jerusalem grew to prominence again, and became the capital of the new nation of Israel.
Remember that Jesus himself said that Jerusalem's trampling would not be indefinite: "They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)
Nations other than Israel (including the Romans, Muslims, the Holy Roman Empire, the Egyptians, the Turks and the British) have owned and periodically trampled Jerusalem, right up until Israel regained control of it in 1967.
A possible second allusion could be the one at Ezekiel 37, the vision of the dry bones:
"The hand of Jehovah proved to be upon me, so that he brought me forth in the spirit of Jehovah and set me down in the midst of the valley plain, and it was full of bones. And he had me pass along by them all round about, and, look! there were very many on the surface of the valley plain and, look! they were very dry." (Ezekiel 37:1,2)
Jehovah goes on to say:
"And he went on saying to me: “Prophesy to the wind. Prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to the wind, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “From the four winds come in, O wind, and blow upon these killed people, that they may come to life." (37:9)
Although this is an illustration, and perhaps had its immediate application with the restoration of Judah after the exile from Babylon, there are several features that give me the impression that something more is being implied.
(a) The visual imagery is very strongly like a holocaust - a valley full of dry bones!
(b) Jehovah commands the four winds to blow, in order to bring this people back to life. Four winds are often used to represent the four "corners" of the earth, as we would say today - north, south, east and west. If this was a release from Babylon alone, it would be from the north.
© The tribes of Judah and Israel are said to become one in Jehovah's hand, since they "approach each other into one stick". The vision is for "the whole house of Israel", not just Judah alone.
(d) This vision comes before the famous Gog of Magog vision in Ezekiel 38, the attack on Israel by a coalition of forces from Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Ethiopia, Put, Gomer and Togarmah. While there is some dispute over the exact identities of these nations, it is almost universally accepted that this attack has not yet happened! The geographical specifics of this prophecy (at least, for Ezekiel's time) implies it is a literal war. And if it does find its fulfillment in modern times, what prevents Ezekiel 37 from having a modern fulfillment?
One flaw in this argument is that Jehovah says "my servant David will be king over them", over Israel. Clearly this is not the case yet, since the literal nation of Israel appoints its leaders by election.
One explanation is that this prophecy is undergoing fulfillment. I find it difficult to convert this into a spiritual fulfillment (as does the WT), because it contains land promises:
"And they will actually dwell upon the land that I gave to my servant, to Jacob, in which your forefathers dwelt, and they will actually dwell upon it, they and their sons and their sons’ sons to time indefinite." (37:25)
Jacob was given a specific piece of land, namely the land that came to be populated by Judah and Israel! Unless we argue that spiritual Israel is going to live in this piece of territory, I think we should take this prophecy for what it is - Jehovah giving back Israel to its rightful owners.
This prophecy has not come to complete fulfillment yet, since Jehovah says: "And the nations will have to know that I, Jehovah, am sanctifying Israel when my sanctuary comes to be in the midst of them to time indefinite." (37:28)
Clearly there is no sanctuary for God in Jerusalem at the present time - but there is a blueprint for one, laid out just three chapters later in Ezekiel!
Anyway, these are two passages in the Bible that I feel could be alluding to a Holocaust.
There are two prophetic passages in the Bible which, for me, suggest it could be connected with the holocaust:
"And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate." (Daniel 9:27)
This is a very intriguing passage. The prophecy foretells the city (Jerusalem) and the holy place (the Temple) being ruined and desolated by a leader that is to come (namely, the Romans).
Verse 27 quoted above describes the desolation itself... it says, "until an extermination", the thing decided upon (i.e. desolation! - see verse 26) will be poured out upon the one lying desolate (i.e. Jerusalem and the Temple).
Could the phrase "until an extermination" be a reference to the Holocaust? Certainly it was only after those horrible events that Jerusalem grew to prominence again, and became the capital of the new nation of Israel.
Remember that Jesus himself said that Jerusalem's trampling would not be indefinite: "They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)
Nations other than Israel (including the Romans, Muslims, the Holy Roman Empire, the Egyptians, the Turks and the British) have owned and periodically trampled Jerusalem, right up until Israel regained control of it in 1967.
A possible second allusion could be the one at Ezekiel 37, the vision of the dry bones:
"The hand of Jehovah proved to be upon me, so that he brought me forth in the spirit of Jehovah and set me down in the midst of the valley plain, and it was full of bones. And he had me pass along by them all round about, and, look! there were very many on the surface of the valley plain and, look! they were very dry." (Ezekiel 37:1,2)
Jehovah goes on to say:
"And he went on saying to me: “Prophesy to the wind. Prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to the wind, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “From the four winds come in, O wind, and blow upon these killed people, that they may come to life." (37:9)
Although this is an illustration, and perhaps had its immediate application with the restoration of Judah after the exile from Babylon, there are several features that give me the impression that something more is being implied.
(a) The visual imagery is very strongly like a holocaust - a valley full of dry bones!
(b) Jehovah commands the four winds to blow, in order to bring this people back to life. Four winds are often used to represent the four "corners" of the earth, as we would say today - north, south, east and west. If this was a release from Babylon alone, it would be from the north.
© The tribes of Judah and Israel are said to become one in Jehovah's hand, since they "approach each other into one stick". The vision is for "the whole house of Israel", not just Judah alone.
(d) This vision comes before the famous Gog of Magog vision in Ezekiel 38, the attack on Israel by a coalition of forces from Meshech, Tubal, Persia, Ethiopia, Put, Gomer and Togarmah. While there is some dispute over the exact identities of these nations, it is almost universally accepted that this attack has not yet happened! The geographical specifics of this prophecy (at least, for Ezekiel's time) implies it is a literal war. And if it does find its fulfillment in modern times, what prevents Ezekiel 37 from having a modern fulfillment?
One flaw in this argument is that Jehovah says "my servant David will be king over them", over Israel. Clearly this is not the case yet, since the literal nation of Israel appoints its leaders by election.
One explanation is that this prophecy is undergoing fulfillment. I find it difficult to convert this into a spiritual fulfillment (as does the WT), because it contains land promises:
"And they will actually dwell upon the land that I gave to my servant, to Jacob, in which your forefathers dwelt, and they will actually dwell upon it, they and their sons and their sons’ sons to time indefinite." (37:25)
Jacob was given a specific piece of land, namely the land that came to be populated by Judah and Israel! Unless we argue that spiritual Israel is going to live in this piece of territory, I think we should take this prophecy for what it is - Jehovah giving back Israel to its rightful owners.
This prophecy has not come to complete fulfillment yet, since Jehovah says: "And the nations will have to know that I, Jehovah, am sanctifying Israel when my sanctuary comes to be in the midst of them to time indefinite." (37:28)
Clearly there is no sanctuary for God in Jerusalem at the present time - but there is a blueprint for one, laid out just three chapters later in Ezekiel!
Anyway, these are two passages in the Bible that I feel could be alluding to a Holocaust.
02-22-2007, 09:33 AM
The Halocaust wasn't the only moment of Genocide that the world had seen. Let us not forget Rwanda. (Ever seen Hotel Rwanda? Very moving movie). By the end of the Genocide there, bones were scattered on the streets, left for the dogs and buzzards to pick clean and the sun to bleach to a grisly white.(Kinda like Ezekial mentioned in his book) They ran to churches to escape the slaughter, and then were killed one by one within their walls while priests were forced to watch. Would there be any passages for this? Or how abaout the island nation slaughtered only recently, when they had had almost no human contact. I only found out about it in High School, and I cannot even remember who they were. But they were utterly exterminated. Yugoslavia, Siberia...all areas of genocides and mass massacres in the last 50 years.
When will the maddness end? :cry:
When will the maddness end? :cry:
02-22-2007, 09:56 AM
Hi Gemini
Welcome to the forum! :cheer:
Jehovah will one day (hopefully soon!) repay the world for its bloodshed. He will not remain silent forever:
And the third one poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters. And they became blood. And I heard the angel over the waters say: “You, the One who is and who was, the loyal One, are righteous, because you have rendered these decisions, because they poured out the blood of holy ones and of prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.†And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions.†(Rev 16:4-6)
I do not believe this is merely symbolic. The world has spilled real, red-coloured blood. One day they will be very literally drinking it as an act of divine retribution over his holy ones.
:numchucks:
Welcome to the forum! :cheer:
Jehovah will one day (hopefully soon!) repay the world for its bloodshed. He will not remain silent forever:
And the third one poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters. And they became blood. And I heard the angel over the waters say: “You, the One who is and who was, the loyal One, are righteous, because you have rendered these decisions, because they poured out the blood of holy ones and of prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.†And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions.†(Rev 16:4-6)
I do not believe this is merely symbolic. The world has spilled real, red-coloured blood. One day they will be very literally drinking it as an act of divine retribution over his holy ones.
:numchucks:
02-22-2007, 10:47 AM
Hi Gemini....Welcome:hibye:
Yes...I watched Rwanda the movie...and got mad...sad and then cried at it all...and as you brought out all the other genocides massacres throughout history.
I've watched the documentary films on the Nazi concentration camps and thought of the JW who took a stand and the amazing part is unlike the Jew who by virtue of being a Jew were thrown into the camps....the JW had a choice they could refuse to sign the party card or sign it....the ones who refused were thrown into the camps.
The scriptures tell us though these things will occurr...man dominates man to his injury....we get mad....sad...then cry.....then pray for the kingdom to come and Gods will to be done
What makes it all real and builds up my faith is the fact that God gave us his only begotten son in order that whosoever believes in him...might nor perish , but have ever lasting life Jo 3:16
I find it difficult to believe that for 2000 plus yrs scince Jesus coming to earth...nothing has happened regarding prophecy taking place....accept ones longing for Jesus return...kind of makes me think of all those yrs ones looking for the promised Messiah....and Jesus came...but they did not understand that he wasn't going to set up his kingdom on earth at that time.
I think there is something we are not seeing....maybe when the bible is referring to earth...it means land....maybe there is a land somewhere or ground or another dimension....other abodes....or mansions....as Jesus did tell the criminal he would be with him in paradise....and the fact that the transfiguration showed Moses and Elijah to be alive and conversing with Jesus shows people are alive somewhere....who knows maybe the resurrection we as JW have been taught is so wrong...oh well enough speculating for now...
Hope all have a wonderful day:heartbeat:
Sandi
Yes...I watched Rwanda the movie...and got mad...sad and then cried at it all...and as you brought out all the other genocides massacres throughout history.
I've watched the documentary films on the Nazi concentration camps and thought of the JW who took a stand and the amazing part is unlike the Jew who by virtue of being a Jew were thrown into the camps....the JW had a choice they could refuse to sign the party card or sign it....the ones who refused were thrown into the camps.
The scriptures tell us though these things will occurr...man dominates man to his injury....we get mad....sad...then cry.....then pray for the kingdom to come and Gods will to be done
What makes it all real and builds up my faith is the fact that God gave us his only begotten son in order that whosoever believes in him...might nor perish , but have ever lasting life Jo 3:16
I find it difficult to believe that for 2000 plus yrs scince Jesus coming to earth...nothing has happened regarding prophecy taking place....accept ones longing for Jesus return...kind of makes me think of all those yrs ones looking for the promised Messiah....and Jesus came...but they did not understand that he wasn't going to set up his kingdom on earth at that time.
I think there is something we are not seeing....maybe when the bible is referring to earth...it means land....maybe there is a land somewhere or ground or another dimension....other abodes....or mansions....as Jesus did tell the criminal he would be with him in paradise....and the fact that the transfiguration showed Moses and Elijah to be alive and conversing with Jesus shows people are alive somewhere....who knows maybe the resurrection we as JW have been taught is so wrong...oh well enough speculating for now...
Hope all have a wonderful day:heartbeat:
Sandi
02-22-2007, 11:10 AM
Hello to you Gemini!
I can fully follow your despondency, when will all the killings stop?
The Jews have been hunted in their whole existence, e.g. by the romans and many others later on with them, Hitler was not the first one and what about Africa today where resident are killed and driven away.
What about those thousands and other thousands of Brothers, Sisters and their Children, members of the Watchtowers Society with their man made doctrines have and still are sending into a premature death? Ban on vaccinations as the act of Satan, organ transplantations as cannibalism and blood and derivates. They are all responsible, direct or indirectly and are really carrying at much bloodguilt. John 8:44!
At present the only thing that can minimize or stop this evilness are when people realize what Mind Control means, stop believing in political or religious leaders and instead follow the Scriptures in which we are warned against a son of man, Psalm 146:3-5 and follow Jesus commandments, to love God by our heart and our neighbour as ourselves in Matthew 22:37-40!
146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
At last and as a final solution, when Jehovah create new heaven and new earth as described in 2 Peter 3:11-13 and as finally described in Revelation 21:1-5!
3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
At least it makes good to know what Jehovah will do with this wicked men, those who are responsible for that other persons have died and still be sent into a premature death, as described in Revelation 21:8!
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
In the meantime, we have all a responsibility to do our outmost to stop the insanity, by exploaring them in public and create an oppinion against such persons and hopefully be able to stop their wicked activities, as described and recommended in Ephesians 5:6-15!
5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Christian love to all of you.
Talkactive.
Ps. The Watchtowers hypocrisy in the blood question can be seen and are documented at http://www.ajwrb.org
Ecclesiastes 1:18!
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People can’t hear and carry the truth, because the lies are tickling their ears!
Jeremiah 8:8!
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
NB. It has to be mentioned that blood as medicine or any other medicine isn't good medicine, since there will always be side effects, opposite the healing Jesus and his disciples afforded, showing what to come, but in the meantime we have to deal with the life itself as sacred and be able to make personal decisions, to sustain the most important for Jehovah and each individual, the life itself in accordance to Galatians 6:5 and not being forced by threats and sanctions into a premature death, by man made doctrines, in opposition to what comes forth in 2 Corinthians 1:24 and 1 Peter 5:3! Like Tully and thousands of others haven’t been able to do:
http://www.energeticsolutions.com.au/tully_story.pdf
Among other places documented in Awake from May 22, 1994! Thousands have died......
I can fully follow your despondency, when will all the killings stop?
The Jews have been hunted in their whole existence, e.g. by the romans and many others later on with them, Hitler was not the first one and what about Africa today where resident are killed and driven away.
What about those thousands and other thousands of Brothers, Sisters and their Children, members of the Watchtowers Society with their man made doctrines have and still are sending into a premature death? Ban on vaccinations as the act of Satan, organ transplantations as cannibalism and blood and derivates. They are all responsible, direct or indirectly and are really carrying at much bloodguilt. John 8:44!
At present the only thing that can minimize or stop this evilness are when people realize what Mind Control means, stop believing in political or religious leaders and instead follow the Scriptures in which we are warned against a son of man, Psalm 146:3-5 and follow Jesus commandments, to love God by our heart and our neighbour as ourselves in Matthew 22:37-40!
146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
At last and as a final solution, when Jehovah create new heaven and new earth as described in 2 Peter 3:11-13 and as finally described in Revelation 21:1-5!
3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
At least it makes good to know what Jehovah will do with this wicked men, those who are responsible for that other persons have died and still be sent into a premature death, as described in Revelation 21:8!
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
In the meantime, we have all a responsibility to do our outmost to stop the insanity, by exploaring them in public and create an oppinion against such persons and hopefully be able to stop their wicked activities, as described and recommended in Ephesians 5:6-15!
5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Christian love to all of you.
Talkactive.
Ps. The Watchtowers hypocrisy in the blood question can be seen and are documented at http://www.ajwrb.org
Ecclesiastes 1:18!
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People can’t hear and carry the truth, because the lies are tickling their ears!
Jeremiah 8:8!
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
NB. It has to be mentioned that blood as medicine or any other medicine isn't good medicine, since there will always be side effects, opposite the healing Jesus and his disciples afforded, showing what to come, but in the meantime we have to deal with the life itself as sacred and be able to make personal decisions, to sustain the most important for Jehovah and each individual, the life itself in accordance to Galatians 6:5 and not being forced by threats and sanctions into a premature death, by man made doctrines, in opposition to what comes forth in 2 Corinthians 1:24 and 1 Peter 5:3! Like Tully and thousands of others haven’t been able to do:
http://www.energeticsolutions.com.au/tully_story.pdf
Among other places documented in Awake from May 22, 1994! Thousands have died......
02-22-2007, 12:30 PM
The holocaust is very much a part of prophecy because it, and the other genocides you mentioned, give clear evidence of the extremes people will tolerate to protect their "world." This world is a "comfort zone," the "devil ya know," so to speak. It is anti-Christ and anti-kingdom of God. It is the same mindset that welcomed Jesus one day as "king of the jews" and crucified him the next as, you guessed it, "king of the jews."
The same thought patterns exist today in religion and elsewhere: Someone discovers a measure of truth and develops a following and a religion is formed. The same person expounds nonsense, but the following continues to follow. Because it's nonsense, it is divisive and must be defended. Now, there are "us" and there are "them." The "us's" have God's backing and the "them's" are apostates deserving of death. In the extreme, "us" becomes an arm of divine justice as "them" are justifiably eliminated. Welcome to the spirit of the world.
It's an age-old story that finds application in all sorts of religious and patriotic movements. As is typical, people can't see how the spirit of the world controls them, yanking their chains, getting them to do all sorts of satanic things. They are conditioned like pavlov's dogs to drool at the sound of their religious bell. They are fearful, hypnotized followers of their father who act out automatically on queue...and the first step is conversion without knowledge of long-term consequences...because it's the "right" thing to do...
gus
The same thought patterns exist today in religion and elsewhere: Someone discovers a measure of truth and develops a following and a religion is formed. The same person expounds nonsense, but the following continues to follow. Because it's nonsense, it is divisive and must be defended. Now, there are "us" and there are "them." The "us's" have God's backing and the "them's" are apostates deserving of death. In the extreme, "us" becomes an arm of divine justice as "them" are justifiably eliminated. Welcome to the spirit of the world.
It's an age-old story that finds application in all sorts of religious and patriotic movements. As is typical, people can't see how the spirit of the world controls them, yanking their chains, getting them to do all sorts of satanic things. They are conditioned like pavlov's dogs to drool at the sound of their religious bell. They are fearful, hypnotized followers of their father who act out automatically on queue...and the first step is conversion without knowledge of long-term consequences...because it's the "right" thing to do...
gus
02-22-2007, 01:33 PM
Matthew 6:9...
“YOU must pray, then, this way:
“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day; and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’
“For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU; whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses."
“YOU must pray, then, this way:
“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day; and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’
“For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU; whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses."