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Does God Have An Organization On Earth Today?

http://www.theapologeticfront.com/2010/0...earth.html

Is God using an organization on earth today? If so, how many are there? Which organization are you a part of? Are there other organizations that God is using? If so, then why are they dis-unified with one another? Is your organization active in proclaiming the kingdom in hundreds of lands all over the earth? Who else is doing this besides the Jehovah's Witnesses? Who else is making God's name known?

I remember several years ago when I had my first conversations with the Jehovah's Witnesses. It was almost like it was yesterday. Going into these conversations, I didn't know a lot about them other than some of their doctrines. In looking back, I can humbly admit that I didn't have my ducks in a row in being equipped to answer all of their questions. But all of it was a learning experience and it forced me to dig into the Scriptures and find out what I believed to be true on a whole host of issues.

But I can remember quite clearly the first issues that were brought up in almost every conversation I was involved in (at the time, I was involved in several book studies at different kingdom halls in addition to the many I spoke to in the meetings); it was questions similar to what was stated above. Here I was, in their eyes, an unbeliever in every sense of the word. To them, I was a pagan follower of "Babylon the great," (i.e. "Christendom") who was on his way to be destroyed at armageddon; that is, if something didn't change. So here was their chance to share with me the most crucial information that could be shared. To them, my salvation was on the line.

Keeping this in mind, perhaps you have been in a position where you felt ill-equipped to answer the above questions. Maybe the questions seemed pretty logical to you when asked. They did to me! Maybe at the end of all of these questions you thought, "Well, even aside from the doctrinal disagreements I have with these people, I can't really deny these implications." Its OK to admit this. I did back then. But when I would go home and have some time to think and pray about the issues we discussed, I would do the only thing I knew I could do: compare these ideas with what the Scriptures taught.

There is no denying that the organization is central to the Jehovah's Witnesses' message of salvation. Unless all of the hundreds of conversations I've had with JW's were with the outliers (those outside the norm), the questions above or some variation thereof, were among the first and primary issues that were discussed. And I'm sure the same has gone for you if you have been in similar situations. But even though I wasn't initially able to refute the questions above; even though I was even forced to agree with them, I still knew that they were wrong. How?

The Jehovah's Witnesses claim to preach the same message as the first-century church. In fact, they seek to model everything they can after them; especially when it comes to issues like the "governing body" or door-to-door ministry (Obviously, I would dispute their reasoning for this). But when I would open up the book of Acts and start reading, I found the early Christians to be radically different from Jehovah's Witnesses today; especially when it came to the core issues relating to salvation. As I stated above, the organization is central to the message of the JW's. However, no matter how stumped one might be to the above questions, it is undeniable that the early church never preached "organization." In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, I don't recall even one instance where "organization" or some variation of this was preached. Never did the early church, whether Paul or Peter, whether preaching to Jews or Greeks, ask questions or make arguments like the ones above. Never did they make the organization the central message, or even a fraction of the message. Never did they implore men to follow them because "no one else was doing this preaching work." Never did they preach that the organization was necessary for salvation.

Instead, they preached about and exalted the person and work of Jesus Christ:


“let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead — by this name this man stands here before you in good health. “He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:10–12)

One way you can tell if an organization is a not truly Christian is if they talk about their...organization. That is, in asking all of those questions above, even if you can't answer them, is proof-positive that they aren't true Christians. But if Christ is being taught as the central issue for salvation, then they may very well be on the right track.

I would implore all Jehovah's Witnesses to do something very simple: read the book of Acts. Look at every instance where the early church is preaching to unbelievers and ask yourself: is my message the same as theirs?

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

Thanks, Bangalore for your thoughts.

I think you hit the nail on the head. For the Witnesses, the foundational presupposition is "organization". From thence stems all sorts of implications.

However, it was the Gospel that defined the early Church. The founding presupposition of Biblical Christianity is not "organization" but "Gospel". The Church is built on the message of the the person and work of Christ.

The church consists of all those who are born again and have accepted the Gospel, who are believers in the Lord Jesus and who as a result, obey him in their lives. It is irrespective of organization or denomination. Although obviously, by saying that, I am not saying that there are not some organizations and denominations which pervert the gospel, like the Watchtower and the Catholic Church. If one is to believe the Watchtower or Catholic gospels one is departing from the Biblical Gospel.

However, there are many groups or denominations and even individuals who all teach the same Gospel, but differ on many secondary issues. Differences in secondary issues is a good thing, and not a bad thing like the WT seems to think. The WT wants uniformity, the gospel calls for unity. I am united by a mutual faith in Jesus to all those who have by God's grace believed, be they Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Brethern, Methodist, Anglican, independent, or otherwise. It really doesn't matter. What matters is the Gospel.

Matt

First of all, be sure and read the opening post of this thread.
Thank you so much Bro Bangalore & Mavos
Seems we are on the same train of thought.about witnessing

Yes the JW's are out preaching the Kingdom, and declaring Gods name
But Why!!! All they are doing is batting the wind.
The kingdom has not started to rule yet ,and cant rule with out the complete number of the bride, so in reality they are still under the influence of the apostate teaching that Paul warned for our day. 2 Thess 2:1-4

Nevertheless they are fulfilling prophecy, as Paul did write that this apostasy of preaching a lie , had to take place and then be uncovered be fore Christ would return.

The Temple of God is made up of living stones, so there's no reason for a earthly organization., Christ is the head of this Temple This is where Jahs spirit would dwell.
,Not a man or a group of Men. Idolitry is the name of that game..

All those that make up this Temple , are individuals and certainly not a earthly organization..
Unlike literal Israel, which will play a big part and does in these last days, the Most Highs holy spirit and protection will is given to His adopted sons/ daughters , which make up the Spiritual Israel of God.

1 Peter 2:5 (Contemporary English Version) reads

And now you are living stones that are being used to build a spiritual house. You are also a group of holy priests, and with the help of Jesus Christ you will offer sacrifices that please God.
>>>>>
AS far as preaching ,Christ followers would be witnesses of Jesus ., that he is our salvation, and how his Father raised him from the dead. There's so much to tell about our Lamb Jesus Christ and his ransom sacrifice .

Instead those that really know the true God are busy directing individuals to Humans or human organizations. Satan is really having a field day for almost a century,
Don't you see what has happened !!

The time of preaching the Kingdom , is already set up by the Most High.
He has set aside 42 months for that message by the remaining bride alive here on earth.
when the time comes
. We will be supporting their preaching..Then will be the revealing of the true sons of God. How many will recognize them /
The sad thing is those that hold on to the LIE will miss this last awakening out of fear of the "master of deception " !
Rev 12:17 Rev 13:5-7; Rev 11 th Chapter

The first resurrection can not take place until the remaining bride iare put to death as the others that make up the Bride were.. 1 Thess 4:13-17 and Rev 6:9-11

Susanna :grouphug:

Hymn:

The Church's One Foundation

By:

Samuel J. Stone, 1839-1900

1. The church's one foundation
is Jesus Christ her Lord;
she is his new creation
by water and the Word.
From heaven he came and sought her
to be his holy bride;
with his own blood he bought her,
and for her life he died.

2. Elect from every nation,
yet one o'er all the earth;
her charter of salvation,
one Lord, one faith, one birth;
one holy name she blesses,
partakes one holy food,
and to one hope she presses,
with every grace endued.

3. Though with a scornful wonder
we see her sore oppressed,
by schisms rent asunder,
by heresies distressed,
yet saints their watch are keeping;
their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
shall be the morn of song.

4. Mid toil and tribulation,
and tumult of her war,
she waits the consummation
of peace forevermore;
till, with the vision glorious,
her longing eyes are blest,
and the great church victorious
shall be the church at rest.

5. Yet she on earth hath union
with God the Three in One,
and mystic sweet communion
with those whose rest is won.
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we
like them, the meek and lowly,
on high may dwell with thee.

Does God Have An Organization On Earth Today?

I think he does.

Thing is, immediately before Jesus Christ returns it is going to be completely corrupted and undermined by Satan.

Corrupted to the point where the Christian Temple is profaned.


2nd Thessalonians 2
But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.


I think it will be corrupted to the point where righteous men are excluded.

Excluded from what?

The organization, the kingdom, the city, the temple?


Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”
6 There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.


If righteous men are excluded then where are they?

They are not in an organization.

They have gone through a gate and are outside the camp.

I believe they are in a wilderness condition scattered all over the world.

So what happens next?

I think some nasty stuff will happen:

Isaiah 66:15
“For here Jehovah himself comes as a very fire, and his chariots are like a storm wind, in order to pay back his anger with sheer rage and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For as fire Jehovah himself will for a fact take up the controversy, yes, with his sword, against all flesh; and the slain of Jehovah will certainly become many.


and some really interesting things will happen:


Isaiah 66:20
And they will actually bring all YOUR brothers out of all the nations as a gift to Jehovah, on horses and in chariots and in covered wagons and on mules and on swift she-camels, up to my holy mountain, Jerusalem,” Jehovah has said, “just as when the sons of Israel bring the gift in a clean vessel into the house of Jehovah.”


Yes, I understand that my opinions are very controversial.

Christians don't want to hear that their temple has been profaned.

I am just a solitary man however, and so not capable of doing much about the controversy myself.


Isaiah 66:16
For as fire Jehovah himself will for a fact take up the controversy, yes, with his sword, against all flesh


In Christ

abe

Your view that the Church would be corrupted by Satan is completely against the entire New Testament.

We've been over this abe...

2 Thessalonians 2 is NOT about the Church.

Isaiah is not about the Church, it's about Israel. That is just plain by the context.

I'm sorry, you don't have a biblical leg to stand on. You take verses from prophets out of their historical context and apply them in any which way you like and it's not the way the author intended his words to be taken nor is it the way God or the Holy Spirit intended his Word to be used.

The Church is comprised of all those who are born again believers in the Gospel of Jesus. All who are true believers in Jesus turn from evil and strive by the Spirit to live godly lives and depart from evil. They are the Church and Satan can not corrupt what the Spirit of God has placed his seal upon and what Christ intercedes for.

Matt
Matt

Mavos,

You are correct in saying that; "Satan can not corrupt what the Spirit of God has placed his seal upon and what Christ intercedes for".

These people will hated, excluded, cast out and beaten by their own brothers.


Matthew 24
48 “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.



In Christ

abe

Yes,Jehovah has faithful servants worldwide.One can find Jehovah’s organization today by looking for its identifying marks.

Right on Mavos! That is why the Orthodox Church is that true Church today.

SWORDOFJAH,

The ONLY organization on the planet today that exclude righteous men through the use of God's actual name is the Watchtower Society.

Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”
6 There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.


[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.


Romans 9:26
and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.


No other religion is fulfilling this prophecy.


In Christ

abe

But... this prophecy was already fulfilled in the first century when God turned His attention to the Gentiles so they too could be saved. If you read the whole chapter of Romans 9 in context, it's clear that Paul was making the case for the Gentile believers to also be included in 'the Israel of God'. You can't cherry-pick one verse out of it and say it belongs to an obscure group living 20 centuries later. Well, I guess you can, but it's entirely wrong in keeping the context of what Paul wrote to the Roman Christian believers.

"Jehovah" is not "God's actual name", Abe. It's one of many personal names that've been applied to Him - but His Name is much more than a phonetic spelling, it's His character which Jesus bore on himself as His Son. Christ Jesus is the one through whom we are gathered as God's children - not through any organization. So it doesn't matter what the wtbts says, they don't have the God-given authority to declare anyone included or rejected as "God's people". God's mercy is entirely through faith in His Son - not through any orgaization. This much, at least, I've learned from the Bible, not from the WT men who wish to glorify themselves as 'something' in God's plan.

:2cents:

Willa,

The Jews in the synagogues did not use God's name. They still don't use God's name even today. If you spend much time on the Internet you will find that many even spell the word God as G_d.

It is therefore unlikely that Isaiah 66:5 had a first Century fulfillment.

From what I can tell through my own research most religions believe Isaiah Chapter 66 to be an end time prophecy.

Yes, God's mercy is entirely through faith in his son.

We should follow Jesus Christ no matter where he goes.

Hebrew 13
Let us, then, go forth to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, 14 for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.


In Christ

abe

You do realize that no one knows exactly what God's name is.

We know the connsonants are YHWH, but that's about it.

You also realize that "Jehovah" is not a legitimate form of the Divine Name. It is YHWH combined with the vowels from Adonai to remind the Jews to say "LORD" and not the name.

You also recognize that any time the NT quotes a passage from the OT where the Divine Name was it replaces it with Kurios, Lord. If the NT is God breathed and the Holy Spirit inspired the use of Lord instead of a Greek form of the Divine Name, then why would it be wrong for us to do the same? (Also, only around half of the OT quotes in the NT are form the LXX).

The first century Christians were never identified by the Divine Name, as the WT asserts, but they were identified with the name of Jesus. (Hence why they were called CHRISTians.)

26 But hear the word of the LORD, all you Jews living in Egypt:'I swear by my great name,'says the LORD,'that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear,'As surely as the Sovereign LORD lives.' Jeremiah 44:26 - TNIV

Hi Abe - I wasn't talking about the Isaiah scripture, but the Romans one you quoted. I wasn't considering what the Jews do or don't call God. Any further comments on what I said about Paul's letter to the Romans? I'm not really 'into' what other religions teach, no more than I consider what the WT teaches to be relevent to my faith in Christ.

:peace:

:cheekkiss: The true church cannot be an "organization"! An organization is an identity. It is made of people who agree to act as a single person, like a corporation. We cannot accept that the Son Jesus would judge a real person by his participation in an "organization", or not! That idea is ridiculous. The true church is insted, an "association". Big difference!

The name "Jehovah" does not identify the true church. Mavos is correct! The true Father God has not revealed an actual personal name for himself to us, only a description, "I am". There is only one personal name that has been given to humankind by which we may be saved, namely "Jesus" (in English) This name identifies the true church.
:cheer: