Td! In light of recent history, it seems to make a lot of sense. I liked the 42 month explanation and the number of the beast, 666.
Hi All,
I read the article, and here's a quote (about a third of the way down):
"The reality is this: All Middle Eastern states are united under one religion, Islam, and all Moslems have one central goal: world conquest for their religion."
(emphasis mine)
Read carefully the author's words...
"all Moslems?"
Really?
I've come to know many "Moslems", and I come away with a different conclusion.
Sure, some of them might be "sleepers", putting on a front of being peace loving decent folk who try to worship God the best way they understand, just waiting in secret for the signal to launch Jihad upon their corner of the world.
But, all of them? Get real! The author needs to get a reality check.
A slightly more balanced treatment can be found in Sam Harris' book, The End of Faith, who quotes Fareed Zakaria, concerning the Quran's more than abundant number of passages directing the faithful to despise non-believers...
Zakaria's quote:
"The truth is that little is to be gained by searching the Quran for clues to Islam's true nature.... The trouble with thundering declarations about "Islam's nature", is that Islam, like any religion, is not what books make it, but what people make it. Forget the rantings of fundamentalists, who are a minority. Most Muslim's daily lives do not confirm the idea of a faith that is intrinsically anti-Western or anti-modern."
An... I say, 'let's declare Jihad upon all hate mongering', "two lepta".
Love to All,
John
Hi John, You are right! that's because most Muslims today are not true Muslims, they are reformed Muslims. Its the same with Jews and Christians. The problem is, the fundamentalists make all the noise, and trouble. Thats why religion has to go!
HI JOhn,
Thanks for the post!!!
What I am trying to figure out is if ISLAM not the Muslim people is the beast.
I feel that whether a people be Muslims, Buddhist, Christian of many denominations like JW, seventh day Adventist and general catholic, protestant all have really wonderfull peoples.
You my friend may not realize that you either missed or did not care to read fully his comment. He pointed out that it is a small percent that is radical. That declare jihad.
I have done so myself a time or twenty.
Many religions teach things contrary to what Jesus taught but I find it to be interesting that the city of Jerusalem to be split three ways religiously. I think it fulfills prophecy as well as the Dome of the rock has some negative things to say about Jesus.
Please see this site
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History.../DoTR.html
I have no way to authenticate if the translation is true hence the topic up for discussion.
Here is what I find to be an affront to my faith.
1. “The Messiah, Jesus son of
2. Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit
3. from Him
I might as well toss my beliefs out if he is only a messenger.
And the bible does point to the “one who deny’s the Son does it not?
Hi all
Now take a deep breath, because I see the Big picture all together different.
I see the beast as one person. In fact I will dare say he is already here.
(only speaking for myself/)
Revelation 13 ;1-2 ( Amplified Bible )
1 [AS] [a]I stood on the sandy beach, I saw a beast coming up out of the sea with ten horns and seven heads. On his horns he had ten royal crowns (diadems) and blasphemous titles (names) on his heads.
2 And the beast that I saw resembled a leopard, but his feet were like those of a bear and his mouth was like that of a lion. And to him the dragon gave his [own] might and power and his [own] throne and great dominion.
Footnotes:
Revelation 13:1 Many ancient manuscripts read "he."
I read the Quran in its original language numerous times and studied it as a child. The general gist of it the text does not point to conquering the world or bearing the mark of the beast.
I also am from a Muslim country and have knows Muslims all my life, and can tell you they are not concerned with conquering the world or converting the masses. Even the most uber conservative ones.
In regards to the Quran's view of Jesus, he is not seen as the son of God but borne by God's spirit through Mary (She is one of the 2 women mentioned in the Quran and is revered as one of the most holy of women). He is however considered the Messiah and the word of God and all Muslims are awaiting his return to usher them and the world back to God's path. Muslim's view of the prophets are different from Christian view, they are revered and honored, seen as near perfect as can be although perfection is a quality reserved for God. In my opinion, that perspective is much better than the traditional Jewish view that regards Jesus as a crazy teacher or a false prophet.
It is also very offputting and discouraging when the more religious Christians put forth theories such as these. It alienates Muslims who may otherwise open to the message. It shuts down all communications.
Others may have a different experience. Evil is everywhere, Look at the fundamentels in Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc, and the atrocities they have committed. I can tell you though that their justification when based on Quranic text is flawed at best. That is very obvious, for someone who can read the text in its original form.
My sister, a practicing Muslim has her own theory and has joined a new movement. It reminds me alot of the discussions on this board about the Illuminati, etc and alot of what this movement teaches is reminicint of JWs: satan has control over this world, religious, political, etc leaders are in the hands of satan and are interconnected somehow, true believers are a few and are dispersed through the different faiths, etc.
Love,
Lou
Thanks Wafa,
that is exactly what this is about. what do people really believe? and why?
and where does it fit into prophecy,
I find it interesting that they are waiting Jesus return and do not think he could be the Son of GOD.
can I ask why Not Muhammad's return? if both were messenger only?
The article seems pretty reasonable as i have said based on the beast being a combination of the three kingdoms symbols.
And Satan gives his power to the beast tells me that the beast is more likely a "world power" as the beasts in the bible books are world powers of their time.
If christianity can be the harlot or the jewish nations I see no problem with the third part of the city of jeruslem which is muslim being part of prophecy.
Do you see where i am trying to see what fits.
Revelation deals with lots of thirds in it.
I find it interesting that they are waiting Jesus return and do not think he could be the Son of GOD.
can I ask why Not Muhammad's return? if both were messenger only?
I guess coz Muhammed's dead. The Quran refers to Muhammed as nothing more than a prophet and a messenger. It actually refers to all prophets in the same manner except Abraham who is referred to as the friend of God (the Arabic word for friend used indicated a very close friendship), and Jesus as the Messiah and the word of God, who will return and complete his role as the Messiah. It also mentiones that Jesus was fortified/aided by the sacred spirit.
The concept of sonship is a concept Muslims find hard to comprehend since they do not regard God as father and people as children. They regard God more as a master and people as his servants, and shy away from personification of God. Hence the entire concept is difficult to understand.
Like Judaism, Islam does not teach original sin. Adam is seen as a prophet and has sinned, but that God forgave him. Humans have the potential for both, evil and good, ie an inclination for both but that satan has led them astray. Hence the need for prophets, a judgement day etc. They are waiting for Jesus's return at the end of times and lead the faithful under his guidance. This is also the time when true believers (from all faiths) will be separated from untrue believers (from all faiths). Many Muslims actually think that they and Christians (and people of the books) will be united behind Jesus.
Hope the info helps.
Thanks for all the insight Loyalty,
can you confirm if this web site is a reasonable accounting of how Islam got it start and if it depicts jihad and other info fairly?
http://www.truthnet.org/islam/whatisislam.html
Would you know if All muslims are of the Islamic faith?
And are christians considered to be tolerated as fellow worshipers of GOD?
I read so many things that make it sound as if they do not tolerate anyone who thinks muhammad is not a prophet and that islam is out to get christians and jews for that matter.
And FYI if for any reason this subject becomes uncomfortable we can drop it.
Thanks for all the insight Loyalty,
can you confirm if this web site is a reasonable accounting of how Islam got it start and if it depicts jihad and other info fairly?
http://www.truthnet.org/islam/whatisislam.html
Would you know if All muslims are of the Islamic faith?
And are christians considered to be tolerated as fellow worshipers of GOD?
I read so many things that make it sound as if they do not tolerate anyone who thinks muhammad is not a prophet and that islam is out to get christians and jews for that matter.
And FYI if for any reason this subject becomes uncomfortable we can drop it.
Hi TD,
It's not uncomfortable but I dunno how much I can help....lol...I follow my own path which tends to get ppl riled up and accuse me of being apathetic, not taking a stance, lunacy, not picking a side... lol.
What happened to Christianity in a way happened in Islam. There are so many sects and denominations within those sects. Some are peaceful and spiritual (like Sufis-although theyre too hippish but thats imo), some fanatical (Bin Laden and his croonies), Shias (big on celebrations, commerations like the Catholics but started in a similar way as Protestants-ie not mainstream), Sunnis (majority of Muslims), Wahabis (puranitical and usually most violent Muslim groups are there offshoots).
The controversy, idiocy, violence, etc etc among Muslims come from traditions. It is amazing how much traditions and culture influence Muslims without them even knowing it. They're so interwoven into their fabrics, that they are often mistaken for religion. The same with Christian Arabs. Traditions and culture dominate, so that even the religious folks, follow more tradition that actual religion.
I'll check out the website and let you know what I think of it. Jihad as a concept is a really beautiful one. It translates to mean struggle, specifically inner struggle. It refers to an inner struggle to transcend one's circumstance, to better one's condition. Education can be a form of jihad, perseverance in the face of persecution is jihad. You can also struggle in the name of God, ie if you were religiously persecuted. Or if God commanded you to fight/struggle in his name, like in the OT or in the battles of the Quran. Any struggle for the sake of God (ie not for self-serving reasons) is jihad, quitting smoking or alcohol or drugs, defending a kid from a bully, etc. My cousin is called Jihad.
The problem is the focus on jihad as a call for justified violence. It's depicted that way in the media and it is abused by some islamic leaders because the easiest way to get someone to follow you is to convince them that God wants them to do what you are asking them to do, that you are God's mouthpiece so to speak. With these fanatical & violent groups, they are all led by evil ppl (who abuse, use, defame, steal etc all behind the protection of his religious) & the ppl brainwashed. The real problem (as I see it) is that the political leaders of the world often are the ones that promote such religious leaders and help them gather power and finances.
Oh and Christians, Jews, (and another people, I forget the name in English but they are mentioned in the bible but as Jews too) are all considered people of the book (Torah, Gospel, etc) who worship the real God (God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David, etc).
I think the key to witnessing to Muslims is by acknowledging the similarities (imo its between Judaism and Christianity) and by appealing to the sense of justice. They all know the system, esp theirs is corrupt but they feel powerless to change it & so may either become disfranchised or in the other extreme fanatical or puritnical. Many also are uncomfortable criticizing other faiths. SO while they may not agree with Catholics, they will not trash the Pope, and definately never speak of any prophet with anything but reverence (ex. lord Jesus, lord Moses, lord Abraham), they are also scared of blasphemey and so to many the trinity would be considered a form of blasphemey.
Lou.
edited to fix typo
Thank you TM for starting this thread. I never go away disappointed from this PC forum. So many of you are simply amazing with your insight and understanding. Thanks to you, this is an enjoyable and tasty feast for me.
I did visit the website that started this exchange and what a stark contrast! It's all about Peter, with a little bit of Pete thrown in here & there. No wonder there is so few who post there!
You have to be ready for the slice and dice assault from this narrow minded administrator should you disagree with his thinking.
The notion of Islam being “the beast†in Revelation made sense to me. But I too have known some very wonderful Muslim people. So maybe they might have been “reformed†and not true Muslims, I don't know.
However, from all the world's religions there can be found people who you'd want to bring home to dinner and meet your family. So the statement by anjaandreas summed it up nicely for me.
“ . . .the bible says that the nature and identity of the image of this“wild beast†remains shrouded in mystery until the later day, even for those who think that they did understand who or what it is as we can see by the false teachings of the watchtower-organization and in the teachings of CT Russel.â€
What happened to Christianity in a way happened in Islam. There are so many sects and denominations within those sects. Some are peaceful and spiritual (like Sufis-although theyre too hippish but thats imo), some fanatical (Bin Laden and his croonies), Shias (big on celebrations, commerations like the Catholics but started in a similar way as Protestants-ie not mainstream), Sunnis (majority of Muslims), Wahabis (puranitical and usually most violent Muslim groups are there offshoots).
The controversy, idiocy, violence, etc etc among Muslims come from traditions. It is amazing how much traditions and culture influence Muslims without them even knowing it. They're so interwoven into their fabrics, that they are often mistaken for religion. The same with Christian Arabs. Traditions and culture dominate, so that even the religious folks, follow more tradition that actual religion.
I'll check out the website and let you know what I think of it. Jihad as a concept is a really beautiful one. It translates to mean struggle, specifically inner struggle. It refers to an inner struggle to transcend one's circumstance, to better one's condition. Education can be a form of jihad, perseverance in the face of persecution is jihad. You can also struggle in the name of God, ie if you were religiously persecuted. Or if God commanded you to fight/struggle in his name, like in the OT or in the battles of the Quran. Any struggle for the sake of God (ie not for self-serving reasons) is jihad, quitting smoking or alcohol or drugs, defending a kid from a bully, etc. My cousin is called Jihad.
The problem is the focus on jihad as a call for justified violence. It's depicted that way in the media and it is abused by some islamic leaders because the easiest way to get someone to follow you is to convince them that God wants them to do what you are asking them to do, that you are God's mouthpiece so to speak. With these fanatical & violent groups, they are all led by evil ppl (who abuse, use, defame, steal etc all behind the protection of his religious) & the ppl brainwashed. The real problem (as I see it) is that the political leaders of the world often are the ones that promote such religious leaders and help them gather power and finances.
Oh and Christians, Jews, (and another people, I forget the name in English but they are mentioned in the bible but as Jews too) are all considered people of the book (Torah, Gospel, etc) who worship the real God (God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David, etc).
I think the key to witnessing to Muslims is by acknowledging the similarities (imo its between Judaism and Christianity) and by appealing to the sense of justice. They all know the system, esp theirs is corrupt but they feel powerless to change it & so may either become disfranchised or in the other extreme fanatical or puritnical. Many also are uncomfortable criticizing other faiths. SO while they may not agree with Catholics, they will not trash the Pope, and definately never speak of any prophet with anything but reverence (ex. lord Jesus, lord Moses, lord Abraham), they are also scared of blasphemey and so to many the trinity would be considered a form of blasphemey.
Lou.
edited to fix typo
Lovely synopsis, especially explaining jihad.
In undergrad, I was the only Christian member of my university's Muslim Student Association. My Face Book "favorite quote" is a saying by Rumi, a Sufi poet, which is as follows:
"Why thus O men of piety, I have returned to sobriety. I am neither a Moslem nor a Hindu, I am not a Christian, Zoroastrian, nor a Jew. I am neither of the West nor the East...Not of ancient promises, nor of future prophecy, Not of hellish anguish, nor of paradisaic ecstasy, Neither the progeny of Adam, nor Eve, nor of the world of heavenly make-believe..I eliminated the duality with joyous laughter, Saw the unity of the here, and the hereafter, Unity is what I sing, unity is what I speak, Unity is what I know, unity is what I seek. Rumi, 116.
HI Lou,
"What happened to Christianity in a way happened in Islam. There are so many sects and denominations within those sects. Some are peaceful and spiritual (like Sufis-although theyre too hippish but thats imo), some fanatical."
You made so many wonderfull observations in your last post.
But this one is so obvious I think it escapes the common man.
Many if not all religions swing to both extremes!!
And we have hell on earth to prove it. from man dominating man/woman to all out war.
So what is the trigger?
Smart and powerfull men. or as Jesus would describe those with the keys to the kingdom in my summation.
Abuse the power and use "religion" to keep these extremes apart and never see a balance.
Jesus taught much about this with "LAW" and Life which was actually more important?
Life of Course!!
WE humans get so caught up in obedience we miss the law of LOVE all together.
I really Doubt that a Loving GOD or heavenly Father which ever religous slant one might believe. would ever have a Law that was so hard lined that it caused death.
And yet that seems to be exactly what "religion has turned into for the masses!"
Just my opionion
Many if not all religions swing to both extremes!!
And we have hell on earth to prove it. from man dominating man/woman to all out war.
So what is the trigger?
Smart and powerfull men. or as Jesus would describe those with the keys to the kingdom in my summation.
Abuse the power and use "religion" to keep these extremes apart and never see a balance.
Jesus taught much about this with "LAW" and Life which was actually more important?
Life of Course!!
WE humans get so caught up in obedience we miss the law of LOVE all together.
I really Doubt that a Loving GOD or heavenly Father which ever religous slant one might believe. would ever have a Law that was so hard lined that it caused death.
And yet that seems to be exactly what "religion has turned into for the masses!"
Just my opionion
TD, I agree with everything you said. It shouldn't surprise me or disappoint me but it does every single time. Sometimes, it is really easy to see why someone would get disfranchised and walk away from believing.