Well, I wasn't really sure what to call this thread be. derek ... :confused: but since there has been quite a lot of discussion on people not claiming who they say they are ... using false personas and such ... maybe a new thread is in order to hash it out ...?? :dontknow:
I am reposting your comments so that a start can be made ... or not ... as to your concerns ... hopefully this will NOT turn into a controverial thread, NOR an opportunity to bash and slash ANYONE here ... :giverose:
Br. derek you said ...
New ones, like DAK and yourself, need to be aware that people on forums may adopt dual or multiple personas. I am not talking for example of husband and wife or son and father, using the same computer.
I was on a forum some years ago where the owner came on and apologized to the members because he had been found out using a dual persona to manipulate another forum. I guess he was concerned what we might think if we had found out? Universally the forum members applauded his apolegy. However, sadly, he did the same thing later on another forum, where he was himself and also posed as "a sincere honest seeker of information."
Some may feel this is a good way to get one's point across...but I think its sneaky.
I don't know whether or not dual persona is banned here, I hope it is, it certainly should be, because it a tool of manipulators. Perhaps Admin can tell us?
Some people, for no good reason, have an ambiguous persona. They hide what they are. One may be on a forum for years, which purports to have high aims, like another I was on, but, today, I still don't know if that person in charge, who I 'rubbed shoulders' with...nettingly speaking...was married, had children or had a different gender preference. He never really gave anything of himself...how can one feel close to a person like that, LW?
It appeared from what was said to me later by the person in question, that the purpose of the forum was not, as I believed when I joined.
Sadly, as the pedophile gravitates to children, we plebs in the masses can be politically manipulated in the cyberspace environment by those who love power over people.
I wasn't sure why you felt you had to state all this as I said ... but since it is obviously on your mind maybe speaking about it might help ... :blush:
I sure hope I have put this in the right section ... :dontknow:
My thoughts on your thoughts is that of course there will be those who come in and 'hide who they are' ... :(
Even in our LITERAL (physical) congregations this has been done has it not ...? :( :wolfsmile: :sheepy:
That is why we have such scriptures to warn us about this as is mentioned in Ps. 26:4 ...
(BBE) I have not taken my seat with foolish persons, and I do not go with false men.
(GNB) I do not keep company with worthless people; I have nothing to do with hypocrites.
I find it very interesting the Hebrew words describing the types of individuals that we may have to deal with from time to time ... in real life and even here at our safe haven ... :shocked::(
From the same as H7722 in the sense of desolating; evil (as destructive), literally (ruin) or morally (especially guile); figuratively idolatry (as false, subjectively), uselessness (as deceptive, objectively; also adverbially in vain): - false (-ly), lie, lying, vain, vanity.
(dissemblers) H5956 על×
‛âlam aw-lam'
A primitive root; to veil from sight, that is, conceal (literally or figuratively): - X any ways, blind, dissembler, hide (self), secret (thing).
Jude 4 ...
(BBE) For certain men have come among you secretly, marked out before in the holy Writings for this evil fate, men without the fear of God, turning his grace into an unclean thing, and false to our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
When such men (and women as well if it comes to that) do come in among us (real world or here) HOW is it that we can come to RECOGNIZE them ...? :confused::dontknow:
2 Pet. 2:3 tells us one way ...
(ESV) And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
(BBE) And in their desire for profit they will come to you with words of deceit, like traders doing business in souls: whose punishment has been ready for a long time and their destruction is watching for them.
To me what I have noticed over the years as a witness and after (and from personal experience as well :( ) is that for the most part such individuals like to cause dissensions among brothers, to raise suspicions so as to separate those familiar with another, to seek to cause others to look up to THEM as a source of so-called 'reliable information' and 'authority', and instead of instilling LOVE and the 'fruits of the spirit' in those who listen rather the 'works of the flesh' come into play ... :(
It would seem they like to find those who have an 'Enquirer' mind set instead of a INQUIRING mind set ... ;)
Anyway, I hope that this thread will help you in your concerns ... :giverose:
Warm Christian love to all ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:
I'm taking this bit from Derek's quote in order to paste my reply to it from the other thread. This is an important question.
Quote:
I don't know whether or not dual persona is banned here, I hope it is, it certainly should be, because it a tool of manipulators. Perhaps Admin can tell us?
Quote:
I can tell you this, we don't allow anyone to have more than one account. Nor do we allow members to share their accounts with others unless those others identify who they are at the outset. And that should not be the case on a regular basis, but only if they are traveling or having a problem with their computer, for instance.
This dual persona thing has been done more than once in the past where someone tried to deceive the members into thinking they were new to the board. We now do an IP check if we have any cause for suspicion.
It's a much better idea for members to report a suspicious post than to air those suspicions on the board. It saves a lot of grief.
We would suggest that even among family members using the same computer that each one have his/her own account. Good to keep in mind that anyone being banned in a family will affect the IP of the rest of the household. Be very careful of those who might share your IP addy.
One of the most flagrant examples of someone trying to hide who they were in order to deceive the members was "Salome" who is known to most of us as Donald Burney.
Some of these deceivers come here as a tag team. We've seen that too.
My advice: Do not let anyone else use your account. That means also being careful of who sits at your computer.
Here's another little point: If you have not used your account for some time and have trouble with your password, or you wish to change your user name, please send an email to PC Admin. and request help. It's best not to try to open a new account which might cause confusion.
We are somewhat invisible on the internet, but not entirely. Sometimes personal posting style identifies you more plainly than the nose on your face.:whistle:
Wow, what a thread! I learned that the meaning of the word "vain" is much deeper than I thought! You really do learn something everyday, if you're paying attention!
:giggle: Rez, too funny! That 'Bird of Paradise' song was the first 45 record my Dad ever bought, when we were kids - we all thought it was so funny! I actually met L'il Jimmy Dickens at a fair when I was about 30!
OK, so I understand the paranoia about real identities, though I'm past the need, as far as the wtbts goes, to hide who I am and what I think and believe. A friend on the old Pathways forum - 'standstill', who's name is Randy... don't remember his last name - started a thread about WT paranoia and fear and and a few of us just outed ourselves! :yahoo: Considering I have no family 'in', it's not such a big deal for me, though. Even tho' my name is pretty rare, if someone finds me on this forum, then I hope it's because they're finding out 'ttatt'. :read::D
But if someone hasn't given a hint of deviousness, then why impute it to them? It's just acting overly suspicious and paranoid prematurely! If people aren't going to be genuine, they'll let it out themselves, they always do. And what harm can come of it, anyway - what if someone really did come on the board and actively try to 'save' us back into the wtbts? I mean, what are they gonna do - report us to the [K]GB?! :rofl:
I don't see a problem with that - does anyone else? :no: 'Sword of Jah' is actively defending the WT but we truly love him! :grouphug:
Others defend their religions and we still love them, right? Some like to share their 'pet peeves' a lot(I sure do!) and some have found subjects they focus on regularly - but I've never thought of them as less than genuine about their thoughts.
We've had agitators here just for the sport of it and they didn't last long. Deception, on this level, works itself out I think, don't you? We shouldn't have to be in fear of newcomers at all though - like Jesus said: "I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves." - and, we being light (:)) - " For nothing is hidden, except to be revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. Mark 4:22
We don't have to conform to the 'darkness' for it to come to the 'light'! It's so cool the way that works, actually. :bulb: We're innocent, yet aware... but shrewd doesn't mean paranoid!
I think Derek was talking about Timothy's different 'roles' - is that it, Derek? Yeah, that was a little strange, but I still don't think that merits a suspicious and unwelcome attitude towards new posters here. If it happens, it happens, and the board will deal with it. We can't prevent it - it's a strange world without and within! And I know an unhospitable air is not something we want to project. :welcome:
Apologies are good. :) Sincere ones are best! :D The way forgiveness works is also pretty cool - it covers everything, the wrong and the wronged. If you think you owe someone forgivensss, then you probably do. If you think you don't, then you absolutely do! Lol, at least that's been my 'foot-in-mouth' experience!
In my post in reply to LW, I asked Admin, as an aside question, which was answered to my satisfaction. I did not wish Admin to inflate this to a new thread.
If you carefully read what I said on DAK's thread, I did not say Dak was a possibly a fake. A lot of people here have read an awful lot into what I said. Please read my posts to Dak.
Anyone who comes on the net and is not aware some live in an, "Alice in Wonderland World", does not have their feet on the ground! :) :)
I shall not make any comment about Timothy.
God bless
Derek
Since you opened up this thread, BR, I will speak openly to the way I see things.
It doesn't really matter very much to me personally if someone comes on with a false persona. Or have an hidden agenda. If JW's come on and want to count their time, why should we badger them for an answer? We found ways to count our time, once upon a time, in a different life..
Regarding a false persona: You never know; I may be an arthritic old lady using a zimmer frame to get about. :)
I merely wish, the 'non-aware' to know, that on the Net, we live in an "Alice in Wonderland World", that get's curiouser and curiouser! Which cannot, as much as some wish, be an on line congregation. Do not be misled.
Hence, applying congregation rules, from an 'experience model', is not an adequate approach.
Like you, I can quote the Bible till I am blue in the face, but if, like J.W's, we do not really listen to what's been said first and parrot what others say, we are wasting our breath.
Perhaps, it is better having a single benevolent autocratic ruler running internet forums?
Then we know whom we are dealing with, that is if he/she didn't nepotistically favour some miscreants and come down hard on others. :) :)
What really does concern me; is the enslavement of others, by the self-appointed false prophets, by crassly stupid conspiracy theories, but by particularly the misrepresentation of (God's) science to the young (and old)! They know, that is the educated young, that some of the pseudo and anti-science posted on Christian forums is rubbish.
The problem is, ultimately these silly 'unweighted' ideas, on the net, will switch the young off searching for God and that is a really sad legacy.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest if you think me an angry old man!:):) ;)
I am what God made me and Christ has set me free.
I also, have to keep reminding myself I am not a slave to anyone else, but Christ.
Peace to you
Derek
You must have seen the new 'Alice in Wonderland' movie maybe ... ;) I know I did ... pretty freaky as usual ... and it is true that things may not always be as they 'seem' to be ...
Thanks so much for speaking openly about the way you see things ... that is what I personally try to do as well ... :giverose:
Of course, my brother, I would think that most people who are on the internet with all the warnings out there would be aware to be 'cautious and serpents and innocent as doves' as regards thinking they may know someone on the internet ...
Humbly and respectfully I do think that in PRINICPLE we can use the comparison of the 'real world' ...
I guess what was of concern in the whole 'false persona' thing was that practically everyone who posted, and not counting those who just 'read' what was said, is that there was no REASON for doubting what this brother said was there ...??:dontknow:
I may be dense ... :huh: but I am not really sure what you mean by ...?
Perhaps, it is better having a single benevolent autocratic ruler running internet forums?
Then we know whom we are dealing with, that is if he/she didn't nepotistically favour some miscreants and come down hard on others. :smile: :smile:
I too agree that 'enslavement' of ANYONE by ANYONE in regard to ANYTHING is horrific:shocked: and sad:( isn't it ...??
Any yes our brothers who are still 'inside' the organization have become 'slaves of men' ... and all WITHOUT them realizing it, which IMHO is the worst of kind of slavery of all!!! :crybaby:
For how they even know there is a 'problem' if they don't know that there is a 'problem' in the first place ...?
They have blindly allowed MEN to tell them what is true and what is false, without having the TIME or even the MINDSET to check it out for themselves INDEPENDENTLY ... and ironically this 'independent checking' can be done through our OWN publications ... a checking that if they are using their WHOLE MINDS ... and praying for wisdom and insight ... our Father WILL open their eyes and eyes to discern what they must see.
Then once they SEE it is up to them what they do about it and how they go about it ...
But it is a PROCESS, rather like losing a loved one, that we must all go through, and just as in dealing with this kind of situation everyone is different and must go at their own pace, so to must our brothers and sisters go about the 'waking up' process in their own way, all the while having the support of those who go through it with them.
There is NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL in this ... and no one should judge another for the 'how' they go about it or even how long it takes ... even though we who have already gone through it would like to see it done quickly and cleanly to save them the heartache that we know they will experience.
But isn't the heartache part of the waking up process, the beginning of really feeling who we are are servants of God and thankful followers of Christ?
Isn't it WONDERFUL:cheer: to come out of the 'comfort zone' of the routine and rut of what we THOUGHT was 'LIVING THE TRUTH',:shocked::huh: only to realize that we were truly 'sleeping':sleepy: without even knowing it??
Our new brother is only just beginning his discovery process, at least that is how it seems to me ... in just the 'new covenant' understanding for me it was an intensive 2 year study and almost daily bouts of tears until I fully came to understand what it really meant 'to and for' ... ME ... one of the 'other sheep' ...:heartbeat:
I also don't think of you as an 'angry old man' ... I didn't even know you were 'old' ... ;) for aren't we really as 'old' as we 'feel' ... and that can mean we can be 'old' even when we are really 'young' ... :P:siskiss::whistle:;)
However, I do think that on those 'arthristisy' days when our 'joints' are maybe aching and acting up a wee bit, we can tend to see things maybe not as clearly or rationally or unbiased as we may like and it can come across in how we react and talk ... all par for the course of being plagued by the human condition of imperfection ... and isn't it on those days when we need the understanding and patience of others aruond us even more, and when we ourselves may need to say I'm sorry for snapping or jumping to conclusions or reacting impulsively and so on ...:dontknow: and don't we LOVE it :heartbeat: when our friends and family take that apology in stride and say they understand, make allowances, and say they know how we felt as they had felt and done the same things themselves! :giverose::grouphug:
Well, I 've probably myself rambled on a bit too long already ... and your 'old eyes' (tongue in cheek of course :P:shocked:) are probably closing or going cross-eyed by now ... so I should shut my mouth :quiet: and let someone else get a word in edge wise as Anne of Green Gables said to Gilbert Blythe!! ;)
Yes, indeedy are ARE slave of CHRIST are we not ... and what a wonderfully FREEING 'slavery' that it is indeed!!!!:cheer::cheer:
Love and peace to you my brother ... BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:
I noticed that the title of this thread includes the words: Hiders of what they are.
There is a difference between hiding who you are and hiding what you are. The ones who hide who they are may need to conceal their identity for a variety of reasons. This can be totally innocent and do no harm to others.
On the other hand, those who hide WHAT they are another matter.
A prime example would be "the wolf in sheep's clothing." This one might be here to mislead the Lord's sheep in order to gain a following for themselves. Burney was one of these.
Or, they may just wish to disrupt the peace of the db as a form of recreation (nothing better to do or ego-building).
Or, they may be looking to use the PM function for commercial or sexual connections.
Hi Rez,
I am interested in how you define a Christian forum because you obviously feel this is a possibility?
I personally have severe reservations that this can be a possibility.
Individuals on this forum may or may not be loyal to Jesus Christ and it is certainly not determined by man or woman, but by God.
I, and some here, were on the old Pathways, started by TK, it was the nearest thing to a Christian forum I have come across, but the owner was absent most of the time. when he came back and wanted to tweak it, he actually felt he needed to close it down and restart it again. As a potter will reshape the clay some try to recast again to their liking.
Another problem seems to be as a forum gets bigger, it becomes a very broad church and an whole smorgasbord of views come to the fore. The forum takes on a life of its own.
Do the prime movers ruthlessly regulate to their own standards, or do they allow free discussion (within reason, eg racial prejudice is off), so that truth, which in many ways is self-evident.... shows itself as the jewel it really is?
We must remember, truth, is not invested in me, you or in any would be elite group or individual but only in Jesus Christ.
Once we start to feel we are the conduit of truth, we are on a very slippery slope. As the Furys' sang in their anti-war song. It happens again, and again, and again. The problem with history is that it repeats itself, repeats itself and repeats itself.
God's way is not to follow any frail man, certainly no egotistical leader and certainly no elite group, but only the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hi Derek, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here.
Quote:
Hi Rez,
I am interested in how you define a Christian forum because you obviously feel this is a possibility?
I personally have severe reservations that this can be a possibility.
Individuals on this forum may or may not be loyal to Jesus Christ and it is certainly not determined by man or woman, but by God.
What kind of possibility are you speaking about? Is it those who might come here with less than Christian intentions?
I'll give you an example anyway, to save some time.
A man comes to the board and portrays himself as a fine Christian. But, behind the scenes he PMs some of the female members of the board with indecent suggestions or obscene jokes. It comes to the attention of admin. and the person is banned.
Hi Derek, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here.
Quote:
Hi Rez,
I am interested in how you define a Christian forum because you obviously feel this is a possibility?
I personally have severe reservations that this can be a possibility.
Individuals on this forum may or may not be loyal to Jesus Christ and it is certainly not determined by man or woman, but by God.
What kind of possibility are you speaking about? Is it those who might come here with less than Christian intentions?
I'll give you an example anyway, to save some time.
A man comes to the board and portrays himself as a fine Christian. But, behind the scenes he PMs some of the female members of the board with indecent suggestions or obscene jokes. It comes to the attention of admin. and the person is banned.
Do you have a problem with that?:shocked:
rez:huh:
Hi Rez,
People are complex Rez, they have probably a suite of reasons for being here.
Regarding your point:
I didn't even know such a thing had occurred, if it has, I would class that sort of behavior with the porn spammer!
Has it occurred btw, or is this hypothetical?
I think you have picked a black and white case. And, I thought my question simple! :)
Some here have different standards of morality to the accepted Christian standards, even believing that permanent relationships outside the firmest that the law requires for man and woman, are ok!
They may even be moderators/or have been...who sets the standards of morality where such laxity (as I see it) exists? I know what God requires of me, I have had one woman in marriage for nearly fifty years, but I leave it the conscience of the other person on forums, God is their Judge.
Since we cannot be lawgivers and we are not members of a denomination or sect, how can we be a Christian congregation?
I would not stay in church that had a pastor who was not keeping God's requirements on morality. But, however, I did stay on a forum once although I disassociated myself from its policy on morality.
We, all individuals here, have different needs that we hope are met, we all give and take from our association as best we can. Let none of us have grandiose ideas and think we are special as we once did in the WTS. :)