Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Interesting, but I am not sure that Paul meant literal nature when he said does not nature teach you . As for the rest, woman out of man etc., I'm inclined to think he was floundering; it doesn't support his argument or make much sense because it doesn't matter who was created first, what matters is what God had in mind when he created them, and to create one intelligent being to be subservient to another just doesn’t fit the picture of a just God.

No, I believe this debacle came about as the result of sin. Once they had withdrawn from under God's direction and protection, Eve, being physically weaker and realizing her vulnerability, made Adam the center of her universe--Your craving will be for you husband and he will dominate you. Adam/man, also feeling vulnerable and perhaps inadequate but unwilling to show it may have become abusive. We know it soon became a dysfunctional family with Cain becoming intensely jealous of his brother. Who knows what arguments arose between father and son, but we do know that Adam was not a successful farmer with the ground producing thorns and thistles, whereas Cain was more successfu as ground was not cursed for him until after he killed his brother Gen 4:12.

One can imagine Cain, a man’s man, being sidelined by his mother when Abel was born, and who then possibly taunted his father for his lack of agricultural prowess. Not a happy family at all, with each member vying for a position of favor and Adam, an inadequate man, ruling the roost.

One can also imagine subsequent women pushing the boys out of the kitchen and teaching their daughters to care for the man so that he would be dependant on them because their survival depended on his protection. And so it is still today in many societies, the only difference being that women no longer understand the reasons why they do this.

No, I don’t for one moment think that God had a hierarchy in mind when he created them male and female, but just as the female and male quality in himself complement one another, so he envisaged it would be when the created them man and woman.

Love, coccus ilicis

Hi Anja,

In answer I ask, is what is written at Col 1:18, 19 and Col 3:15-19 what God had in mind for the human race when he created the man and woman adam. If you answer, 'yes'. Then I would ask to what end. Paul's words at Col 1:18, 19 & Col 3:15-19 are directed at fallen mankind, to the Christian church in its infancy, a people used to a hierarchy of overlords telling them what to do.

Jesus’ followers had taken his message of equality, love and freedom to heart. How could they possibly accomplish their job of preaching the Good News if everyone did their own thing? So Paul gives us his version of how he sees Jesus Christ as the head of the body of the church and continues on in the same vein through to the family arrangement, thereby establishing a chain of command and a means of control. Unwittingly he draws on his own conditioning and training as a Pharisee and thereby perpetuates a patriarchal system of worship. He admits his lack of complete knowledge at 1Cor 13:8-11 where he says, …whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have a partial knowledge and prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives(complete knowledge) that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe… At that time the Christian congregation was in its infancy, but Paul did what he could in order to accomplish what they had been sent to do. What he failed to see was that in his efforts to establish unity and order he sowed the seed of a controlling church hierarchy, which he describes as the man of lawlessness at 2Thess 2:3,4,&7

Continuing on in his letter to the Corinthians he says (1Cor 13:12) …For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately… Yes, if Paul is/were alive now he would see the result of the seed of hierarchy he sowed by his words back then. As over time as the church hierarchy became overbearing it gave birth to schisms with splinter groups breaking away. These in turn zealously applied the formula of the early church, starting the same process over again and over again, and we ourselves have been complicit in this process thinking we are doing God’s will, but are we?

Or have we come to the end of yet another system of worship of a ...creation that is subjected to futility not by its own will but through him who subjected it on the basis of hope… Rom 8:20, 21. How can subjection to this futility give us hope? Because it has enabled us to see clearly that fallen men fail miserably at playing God by feeding us their interpretation of God’s requirements through a hierarchy of intercessors. We can now see that only God can ...set us free from enslavement to this corruption so that we may obtain the glorious freedom of the children of God.

“…For I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it, And I will become their God and they themselves will become my people. And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me from the least one of them even to greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I forgive them their error and their sin I shall remember no more..." Jer. 31:33, 34.

I obey Jesus' 'headship' by taking note of his words at John 6:45, referring to the last day he quotes from the above, ...‘And they will be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me...

I believe that day is at hand.

With love from Coccus ilicis