Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

The debate between free will being true, and predestination being true is a tricky and thought provoking question. Each contradict each other at the extreme level, yet it feels as though both should be true. How could God not know all things past present or future? Yet if true how is it we have free will and are not robots? With out getting into that debate right now, I find it fascinating that the bible seems to teach both view points, even though it seems to be beyond human comprehension that both could be true.

I find it even more fascinating that science itself is now wrestling with the same problem.

We all know roughly the theological debate between Calvin vs Armenius. We also know that this same debate was around long before them, simmering in the background from the time the early church fathers debated the same subject.

The debate in science though centers around classical physics and quantum mechanics. Classical physics deals with large scale phenomena while quantum mechanics deals with very small scale phenomena. The two theories both work yet are completely incompatible with each other. Sound familiar? Indeed it is, because translated it is the same contradiction that free will and predestination exhibit. To explain as best I can, large scale physics are completely predictable in that if one knows the speed and direction of an object, one can, with 100% accuracy, predict where that object will end up. This is why the universe in large part, if you forgive the pun, is subject to human understanding. Its why train time table's work when all goes to plan. So the argument goes that if we could know the starting point, and speed for all things in the universe, we could by a process of simple deduction know everything that was ever going to happen. To a certain degree this actually does work with large scale classical physics. Its why the moon landings were possible, and why the moons phases can be accurately predicted to an extremely high degree of accuracy hundreds if not thousands of years into the future, and why if we know the exact position of a meteorite, and its speed, we can work out if it will hit the earth.

Of course the universe has a hidden side to it, which is the quantum mechanics side. That affects the very small and because all objects are made up of very small particles that operate of this level, complete predictability goes out of the window even with large scale objects. The problem with very small particles is that when they are measured, something contrary to human comprehension seems to happen. It turns out that it is possible to measure the exact location of a quantum sized particle, but not its speed. However if only the speed is measured, it is possible to get a completely accurate measurement but then not its exact location. So for some mysterious reason one can only get either the speed or location but never both at the same time. Both of course is what is needed in order to ever make 100% accurate predictions on where the particle will be at any given point in the future. No one knows for sure why speed and location cannot be measured at the same time for quantum physics, as it can with classical physics, but its probably a good job such is the case.

The reason this is a good thing is because if it were possible, humans would really be robots without free will. Free will by nature is non predictable or it wouldn't be free will. So it seems to be that the universe somehow blocks, hides or destroys the information about speed and location for quantum sized particles in order to allow for free will in the human brain, which operates on both levels of reality's, the quantum and classical. In other words, if one could know how all the particles that make the brain up were moving 100% accurately, it would be possible to predict where they would be at any given time in the future, and predestination would take over and free will would vanish. However because that is, for some reason, not possible to do on the quantum level of the brain, free will is intact, and it is impossible to predict where all the particles that make the brain up will be at any given time.

Its fascinating that in physics, which underlies the workings of the physical universe, is the very same mystery that existed in theology for thousands of years, but manifesting in the quantum particle itself. So as soon as we got the tools to measure quantum sized particles, to possibly see for the first time how this dilemma of free will and predestination might be answered in the physical domain, the particle itself denied us the answer. Fascinating!

Interesting topic.

Seeing that science is not my thing, I am only going to comment on one sentence of what you wrote.

Actually, you have expressed the two differing presuppositions on this subject in a single sentence.

According to Wikipedia:

Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to believe both without being logically inconsistent (people who hold this belief are known as compatibilists).

Incompatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are logically incompatible categories.

Compatibilism in Theology

From Theopedia:

Compatibilism is a theological term that deals with the topics of free will and predestination. It seeks to show that God's exhaustive sovereignty is compatible with human freedom, or in other words, it claims that determinism and free will are compatible. Rather than limit the exercise of God's sovereignty in order to preserve man's freedom, compatibilists say that there must be a different way to define what freedom really means.

Compatibilism, in contrast to Libertarian free will, teaches that people are free, but defines freedom differently. Compatibilism claims that every person chooses according to his or her greatest desire. In other words, people will always choose what they want-- and what they want is determined by (and consistent with) their moral nature. Man freely makes choices, but those choices are determined by the condition of his heart and mind (i.e. his moral nature). Libertarian free will maintains that for any choice made, one could always equally have chosen otherwise, or not chosen at all. God is said to influence our desires, and thus is able to have exhaustive control of all that goes on

Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.

I am a "compatibilist". I believe that the story of Joseph, passages from the prophets, Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1, the latter half of John 6, all support Compatibilism.

Aside from scriptural objections, I have philosophical objections.

1) Causality — If causes are understood as conditions prior to an effect that guarantee an effect, and all events have causes, then it follows that all events were preceded by conditions that guaranteed those events. But this is the same as saying all events are determined. Since the choices of humans are events, it follows that the choices of humans are determined.

2) Responsibility — Rather than salvage human responsibility, some maintain that libertarian freedom destroys it. If our choices have no causes, in what sense are they our choices? Is it any more agreeable to reason to hold humans responsible for choices they didn't cause than to hold them responsible for choices that were caused and thus determined?

3) God's Freedom — Some have maintained libertarian freedom on the basis that all things done of necessity are not worthy of praise or blame. But what are we to think of God's actions? We believe that God does good, and that God cannot do evil. Does God's moral inability to do evil make His good actions unpraiseworthy? If God must do good, is He then unpraiseworthy? Some have said that God must do good because God's nature determines His choices. God is still free, some say, because God can act in accordance with His choices, but God's choices are determined by His nature. If God's choices are determined, and God is worthy of praise, this is a clear case, some say, of actions that are determined and thus necessary while also being morally praiseworthy.

Brian,
I think we are thinking along similar lines.

We are creatures of time, God, is not.

He lives in the eternal present and the whole of time is in his grasp...or so a believer would suspect!

What amazes me is how order forms out of apparent chaos...and perhaps the same coherence comes from the 'randomness' of free will?
Derek

Does God know the outcome?


Malachi 4
5 “Look! I am sending to YOU people E·li´jah the prophet before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah. 6 And he must turn the heart of fathers back toward sons, and the heart of sons back toward fathers; in order that I may not come and actually strike the earth with a devoting [of it] to destruction.”


In Christ

abe

“Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’"
(Isaiah 46:8-10 ESV)

Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
(Isaiah 44:7 ESV)

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
(Isaiah 45:21 ESV)

"I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them and I made them known; then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass. For I knew how stubborn you were; the sinews of your neck were iron, your forehead was bronze. Therefore I told you these things long ago; before they happened I announced them to you so that you could not say, 'My images brought them about; my wooden image and metal god ordained them.'"
(Isaiah 48:3-5 TNIV)

Of course God knew it was going to happen. To say God doesn't know the future is to detract from him, and to do him a great dishonor.

Don`t thank me, that wasn't the point I was making. The problem is that cause and affect happen at the same time if both predestination and free will are true, which is of course preposterous. Making connections within the twilight zone doesn't mean much.
Derek, you get it!

Hi Brian! Glad to see that you, like myself, have an interest in Quantum Mechanics! There is a theory that could explain the paradox.
The Multi-verse theory. In this theory, there are an infinite number of universes, some in 3-D and parallel to ours, and some quite different and in higher dimension, like the spirit world. In the infinite number of parallel universes, anything that can happen, will happen. What we choose to happen (free will) will happen in at least one of those universes. We design the universe we live in as we exercise free will. God knows everything that can happen and will happen in every universe. With every choice we make, we direct our selves into the universe where that choice was to happen. We therefore have infinite choices, and infinite destinies, and God knows them all, and they all are going to happen. (Infinity is infinite)
MindBogeling. :funnyface:

Interesting. I don`t buy it to be honest because the collapse of the wave function as they call it deals with infinitive choices at the quantum level which collapses into actual outcome on the classical level. Infinite universes are not necessary. Plus if it were true, every time I made a decision, something strange would happen from my perspective, like the cat would turn orange or something like that. It would happen like that for everyone and nothing could make sense and classical theory would cease to be predictable.

In this Universe God knew you'd write that. :bangin::fishing::albert::nicethread::scratchhead::help:

Ah...I see. :huh:


Please allow me time to get a double masters in philosophy and theology so I can make a post on this thread.

How foolish of me, a pleb, to think that I could do such a thing! :huh:


Ok....ill let the enlightened get back to their conversation now...:huh:

Welcome To My World


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_sU0pAE-fE


:coffeeread:

The theological name for the view you gave is Molinism.

I disagree with the view you presented.

I believe that from all eternity God has foreordained all that should happen in time, and He did this freely and unalterably, consulting only His own wise and holy will. In doing this God does not become in any way the author of sin. He does not share responsibility for sin with sinners. His predestination of free choices does not violate the will of the creature. When God foreordains something, the free working of secondary causes is not put aside but is it established.

What are secondary causes? God and his decree is the first or primary cause of all events. Nothing happens by chance, randomly, or outside the sphere of God's decree. But just as a king grants his ministers the honor of executing his commands, so too God employs what are called "secondary causes" to execute his plan. By his providence God controls whatever comes to pass, but secondary causes play their part in bringing them about, working as either fixed laws like the laws of nature, or freely like the will of the creature, or because other causes have caused them. An example of a secondary cause would be the water cycle. But notice what the scriptures say: "For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45 ESV) God "calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth, the LORD is his name" (Amos 5:8 ESV) (See also Psalm 135:7 and Acts 14:16-17). So what causes the rain, God or the water cycle? The fact that we have a natural explanation for rain in the form of the water cycle, doesn't mean that God doesn't send the rain. God is the primary cause, and he uses the water cycle as a secondary cause.

When it comes to free-choice, free-choice does not mean being the first cause of one's actions. Only God can be a first cause, because being is first (primary), and only God can cause the act of being. In other words, man can only cause being (make or produce) on condition that God renders this possible through creation. In other words, man is only a secondary cause, and he can only be so on condition that God is the primary cause.


Matt

Hi Beau,
Stop being a Gummy Bear....and join me in Plebsville! :):);)

Oh hell, how can I be a Pleb, when Matt's put me down as a Mollinist...AGAIN! :)

This has got to stop...I prefer being a Pleb!
Anything but a Mollinist, being a 'weekly' creationist, would be preferable.

The real problem for Matt is that, "Whatever Brian and I, are", is relatively simply expressed and it bypasses all that philosophical book learning that young Matt has gone at great lengths and expense to get! :)

At this point young, Int, would mention Occum's razor!
Due to being a Pleb, like you, Beau, I won't. :)

Just to be clear no where in the Bible is anyone " Predestined " to Heaven or to Hell.

Predestination and Election are 2 separate doctrines.

Predestination is NOT Election and Election is NOT predestination

Predestined to what?

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Predestined to be saved??? NO!! " TO be comformed to the image of his Son ".

Predestined has absolutely NOTHING to do with the unbeliever.


As to free will,

Whose will God's or the unbelieving pharisees do we see in John 5.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is looooooooooooong suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Holy Spirit prompts people to repent sometimes right up to the day they die to accept Christ as the only way to appear before a Holy,Holy,Holy God and be righteous ( Imputed) in His site. Dieing having Rejected His prompting is what is known as " The unforgivable sin ".



John 5
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.


Matthew 23

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I [u]wanted( past tense ) to gather your children [/u]together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Ps 91

1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, “He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.” 3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
He shall cover you with His feathers,And under His wings you shall take refuge; His truth shall be your shield and buckler.


God has always willed to save and man has willed to reject God's way of Salvation. Two choices are given His way ( a way out from His wrath ), or ones choice to disbelieve and endure His wrath.

Manyof the OT examples were a picture of Christ.Those who believed God by faith were saved.


The Serpent on the pole " Look and Live " ( Jn 3:14,15)
The Ark ( Those inside were safe from God's wrath )
The Blood on the door post.


Ruth 2:12
The LORD repay your work, and a full reward be given you by the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings you have come for refuge.”

Mal 4
2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.


This could be one of the MOST important passages in the NT it tells us why people will be condemned

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world ( JESUS ), and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jesus came to shine His light upon us to show us just how wretched and evil we are ( to expose the motives of our hearts as evil ALL the time ) and to look to Him and His righteousness as the only way to be seen as righteous before God.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


The Pharisees thought they were "righteous" by keeping the Law and deserved to be able to appear before God based on their works.

Romans 10:3
For they [b]being ignorant of God's righteousness[/b] ( That it requires 100 percent to stand in His presence," Be ye Holy as I am holy ") and going about to establish their own righteousness( FILTY RAGS BEFORE GOD ), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
( No personal sin gets in )


So as the Bible clearly shows there are 2 types of People. Those who have been to Christ and had ALL their sins forgiven and those who have NOT. Those who have a Saviour and will spend eternity with Him and those who will not.

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart: