Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

I have been reading through the minor Prophets recently.

There is a common thread I am noticing: that of the spiritual adultery and "whoring" (Geneva, KJV) of Israel.

Interestingly, the WT has said that Spiritual Adultery is the involvement of Religion and Politics. While I agree there must be a separation of Church and State, this doesn't mean that there has to be a separation of Christian and State, as the WT implies.

However, and this is the topic I wish to discuss, Spiritual Adultery in the prophets doesn't seem to be political, but religious. This might even seem obvious since it is called spiritual adultery. Notice just one passage of Hosea, a book that is all about Spiritual Adultery.

And the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins.”
(Hosea 3:1 ESV)

It seems to me that Spiritual Adultery is Idolatry, and the abandoning of the true worship of the Covenant God Jehovah. In fact, I can find no other way to define Spiritual Adultery.

What are your thoughts, and why would the WT change the meaning of Spiritual Adultery to suit their own teachings?

James 4:4 references that friendship with the world is like adultery. Perhaps, in light of the prophets, this isn't talking about just having some non-Christian friends, (Jesus was a friend of the publicans and sinners), but perhaps this also refers to Spiritual Adultery by way of false religious ideals?

What are your thoughts?

Matt

The same reason they changed the meanings of other things: They have to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, which means they should have "inside knowledge" unlike anyone else. Therefore, they have to have alternative meanings in order to "prove" their discreetness.

:barf:

Matt,


In terms of Christianity.

I personally believe that spiritual adultery can only be done by someone who is a true Christian.

Saying the term; "false religious ideals" can be a little misleading.

Which of these is a spiritual adulterer:


1/ A false Christian practicing false religious ideals.

or

2/ A true Christian practicing false religious ideals.


Yep, it is an interesting topic!



In Christ

abe

Whether or not it is "true Christians" is something we can discuss.

What I will grant is that in order to commit Spiritual Adultery you have to be part of the Covenant. In Old Testament times, a heathen who was not an Israelite was not guilty of Spiritual Adultery because he was not part of the Covenant. So you have to be a Covenant member to commit Spiritual Adultery. The same would be true today. Today, you would have to be a member of the New Covenant to commit Spiritual Adultery. But "not all who are of Israel are true Israel". Just like there was the remnant of elect Israelites who remained loyal to Jehovah, so too the elect in the New Covenant will remain faithful to Christ. But just like in Israel, the New Testament prophecies that there would be false believers, false brothers, false teachers who would enter in among the elect. There will be sheep and goats, wheat and weeds until the end of the age.

Matt

Hi Matt!
Its interesting to note that the WTS calls itself (its anointed) Spiritual Israel. If old Israel was more often then not involved in spiritual adultery, I'd say they are a fitting type for the WT anti-type.

Matt,

Yep, the lesser prophets agree with the undermining of the covenant:

Hosea 8
1-3 "Blow the trumpet! Sound the alarm! Vultures are circling over God's people
Who have broken my covenant
and defied my revelation.
Predictably, Israel cries out, 'My God! We know you!'
But they don't act like it.
Israel will have nothing to do with what's good,
and now the enemy is after them.


If they have broken the new covenant they might as well be dead.

I think that is what Jesus Christ implied when he said; "where the dead body is, there the vultures will be".


So if someone is to; "Blow the trumpet! Sound the alarm!", then what will they likely say, who will they say it to and will they say it at the proper time?

Will the people blowing the trumpet and sounding the alarm be able to save others from the vultures circling overhead?


In Christ

abe

You have the answer, Matt: "the WT change the meaning of Spiritual Adultery to suit their own teachings."
Maybe politicism isn't as big a thing in some other countries as it is here in the US(?), but I'm thinking it was Rutherford who incorporated that term to include anything political or patriotic. In some ways, Israel as a nation was very political - it was them against the rest of the ungodly world. (even Jesus said if you're not for him you're against him!) So today it seems to be the same, only with Christians as 'spiritual Israel' who come out of the world and it's lust for wealth and fame.

You pose some mighty thought-provoking questions, little brother! :friends:

:peace:

Please explain how this text relates to the New Covenant, when it is obvious given the context that it is referring to the Old Covenant and given Jeremiah's description of the New Covenant and New Covenant believers.

"Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." - Matt. 24:28 ESV

Abe, it seems best not to “over-interpret” this expression. It probably means simply that, just as people from far away can see vultures circling high in the air, Christ's second coming will be visible and predictable. He is dealing in chapter 14 with some sings that precede his return. Thus, a sign that there is a dead body is vultures over head. It will be impossible for people not to see and recognize the return of Christ.

The message that is to be spoken is not some radical end time judgments. The message to be spoken is the Gospel.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
(Matthew 24:14 ESV)

What is the gospel?

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."
(1 Corinthians 15:1-6 ESV)

The message we should proclaim about the end is like Paul did at Mars Hill:

"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."
(Acts 17:30-31 ESV)

Thus we preach the Gospel of Christ Crucified. We should be teaching the gospel. We need to disciple people to observe all the Jesus commanded. (Matt 28:18-20) We teach others to worship God in spirit and truth (John 4).

In essence, the cure for spiritual adultery is the Gospel. The Gospel is the centre and the core of Christianity. It isn't eschatology or end times theories, or prophecies about apostasy, it's the Gospel. "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." (1 Corinthians 2:2 ESV)

It seems obvious to me that it is the new covenant that is in the context here especially with the prophetic vultures circling over God's people.

Is there something special about Jeremiahs description of the new covenant which would negate this?

I think you are correct, the people saying; "'My God! We know you!" and yet have undermined the new covenant will be thrown into the fiery furnace at Christs return.

An unmistakable sign.

Yes, Jesus Christ made it clear that the Gospel should be continually preached.

He said that before he gave the signs and warnings of the end times.

If a person kept on the watch however, would they see the things that would cause baptized (new covenant) people in Jesus Christs Kingdom to be thrown into the fiery furnace. (spiritual adulterers)

Something Jesus Christ said would happen on his return.

Using the illustration of vultures overhead is therefore a good indication that some people would have kept on the watch and see the predicament.


In Christ

abe

Abe, thanks for your response.

So what is it in the surrounding verses of Hosea 8 that indicate to you that the New Covenant is in view in the verse you quoted? Please be specific as to which verses indicate this to you. I'm just trying to get you to admit that the immediate application is to Israel and the old covenant, and the aplication to the Church and New Covenant is only a secondary application.

It is interesting, that in verse 2 of Hosea 8, Israel claims to know God. But like Jesus says, "I never knew you." The word "know" is used in at least two different senses in scripture. There is the plain use which basically indicates knowledge of specific facts. There is another use that is also used. To "know" can refer to an intimate knowing. Adam "knew" Eve and they bore a son. So when Jesus says, "I never knew you" it is obvious that the second meaning is implied. Jesus never had an intimate, personal relationship with them. Notice verse 4, once again idolatry is in view here. Although Israel were members of the Covenant, and had recieved the covenant sign, being circumcised, yet they were not "saved", they were not part of the remnant of elect Israelis. Hosea 4:6 and 5:4 confirm this because the Lord says that they "are destroyed for lack of knowledge" and "they know not the Lord". What's my point? My point is that although they had covenant membership, yet they lacked the most vital element: a living, intimate, and personal relationship with the Lord. Without a relationship with God they would also lack the Spirit. They obviously did not have a living faith in God either. So in short, they were not saved. Covenental membership is not salvation.

The same is true under the New Covenant. A person can be a member if the New Covenant and not have a relationship with the Lord. Just as circumcision was the sign of membership in the Mosaic Covenant, so too water baptism is the sign of membership in the New Covenant. Just like the Israelites, a person can claim to have faith in Christ, but are in reality unfaithful. Just because you claim to be a Christian and are baptized, doesn't mean that you are one of the elect remnant.

The porphecies about the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 indicate uses similar language about a broken covenant, viz. the Mosaic Covenant.

My initial reaction to the the vulture passage is that you are reading too much into it. However, I had never read Hosea 8:1 in the light of Matthew 24 and will meditate on that some more before commenting on it further.

I have more thoughts, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Matt

Hi Mavos

I think another, more subtle reason why they need to condition their followers to equate "spiritual adultery" with politics is because of their interpretations of prophecy, particularly their teaching that Babylon the Great equals "the world empire of false religion".

The symbolic "Babylon the Great" is a harlot, but using slick (but false, in my opinion) reasoning, they eliminate her as being a political entity because she sleeps with "the kings of the earth".

It's false logic because ancient Ninevah was also described as a harlot (in the book of Nahum) - but she was still a POLITICAL entity, namely a capital CITY.

But if the masses of JWs believe that "spiritual adultery" equates to mixing with politics, then their interpretation of Babylon the Great is given more weight in the minds of its adherents.

The truth is, "Babylon the Great" is just as much a political entity as "the kings of the earth" are. (And that the angel tells us she stands for a CITY... just like Ninevah was a CITY... should be the WTS' first clue ... but they prefer to make up their own meanings, at that point).

As I've said before... Amsterdam is a city... Rome is a city... Chicago is a city... "the world empire of false religion" is NOT a city. It is a construct in the imagination of Rutherford.

As for the eagles and the carcass statement by Jesus, he was first of all paraphrasing from the book of Job (chapter 39, verses 27-30):

"Or is it at your order that an eagle flies upward
And that it builds its nest high up,
That on a crag it resides and stays during the night
Upon the tooth of a crag and an inaccessible place?
From there it has to search for food;
Far into the distance its eyes keep looking.
And its young ones themselves keep sipping up blood;
And where the slain are, there it is."

Why did Jesus use it? Well, he'd just warned his disciples to be on the lookout for Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, as their signal to flee to the mountains. Then he talks about his return, and alludes to carcasses.

Mmm.

Abe ain't gonna like this, but the historical record shows that the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem in 66AD, and then withdrew... and then, heeding Jesus' warning, the Christians fled to Pella.

Subsequently, according to Josephus 1.1 million Jews DIED IN JERUSALEM.

Lots of dead bodies. Lots of carcasses.

However, I think Jesus was also using it in a more subtle way... because by the time the Christians had fled from Jerusalem, the city was AS GOOD AS DEAD... so the eagles (which, interestingly enough, was on the standards of the Roman armies) were encircling, ready to eat the "dead body".

What's fascinating is that Revelation also pictures this fleeing, and also alludes to eagles, but this time bringing protection for the one fleeing:

"Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent."

Mavos, I believe this was fulfilled by the fleeing of the Jewish Christians from Jerusalem, during Satan's "window of opportunity" during the 7 years between 66-73AD. This was really the start of Satan's WAR with the seed who bear witness to Jesus. (It is around this time that the Gentile Christians of Rome are accused by Nero of starting the earlier fire in Rome, and burned in Nero's Vatican gardens.)

What about the Watchtower UN NGO stuff?

Warm Christian Love
Bangalore

The key with the NGO issue for me was not that it was necessarily wrong, but that it was wrong by the WT's own standards. They were hypocrites by saying one thing and doing another. Now it may be wrong for a church or group to be involved in politics or to promote a political agenda, and I think it is. However, just because it is wrong biblically, doesn't mean that it is "spiritual adultery". Many things are wrong but that doesn't mean that it is "spiritual adultery".

Scripturally, "spiritual adultery" refers to those who are in covenant with the Lord and leave true worship for idolatry. Spiritual adultery is tied up with idolatry and false worship, and not with politics. Political involvement is a different issue.

Matt,

You could meditate on these scriptures too:


Ezekiel 39
“And as regards you, O son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Say to the birds of every sort of wing and to all the wild beasts of the field: “Collect yourselves together and come. Gather yourselves together all around to my sacrifice, which I am sacrificing for YOU, a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. And YOU will certainly eat flesh and drink blood. 18 The flesh of mighty ones YOU will eat, and the blood of the chieftains of the earth YOU will drink, rams, young male sheep, and he-goats, young bulls, the fatlings of Ba´shan all of them. 19 And YOU will be certain to eat fat to satisfaction and to drink blood to drunkenness, from my sacrifice that I will sacrifice for YOU.”’


and


Revelation 19
I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”


In Christ

abe