Numerous posts have dealt with this subject quoting or citing Matt 24:45-47.
The verses are so familiar that we know them off by heart, but perhaps that is the problem; let’s see what they actually say.
I am sorry I will have to refer to Greek grammar, which makes the explanation a bit cumbersome, but the WBTS have tweaked the scriptures here a little. But if you bear with me, read it in context, give it some thought and compare it with Luke’s account I think you will find it worth your while.
…who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you he will appoint him over all his belongings.
First, let’s ask if any slave had been appointed at the time Jesus spoke the words? No. So it’s fair to say the appointment was sill future.
In Greek word for appointed is not in the past tense, but is aorist, which is not a tense in the English sense of the word, but is used to give an overview or birds eye view of a snapshot in time. It can be future past or have no time reference. Like a snapshot it gives a picture but no information as to when.
…to give them their food at the proper time…, the NW conveys a picture of providing food at regular intervals, but this is not what Jesus meant. The Greek word translated ‘proper time’ is kairo, which the society usually translates as ‘appointed time’. Furthermore kairo here is in the dative case, which Greek Grammars tell us is a ‘particular point in time’.
Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so… arriving/elthon, literally is ‘having come’ (aorist participle of erxomai), which the NW translates as coming at 24:30, 44, clearly referring to Jesus’ coming at a point in time which no one knows.
So with these points in mind let’s read it again, …who is really going to be the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appoints over his domestics to give them their food at the appointed time. Happy is that slave if his master, when he comes, finds him doing so. Truly I say to you he will appoint him over all his belongings.
So far so good, but if the master doesn’t appoint the slave to give food to his domestics at the appointed time until he comes, what does the doing so refer to. In Greek word order is not as important as it is in English, therefore one must refer to the context to find what doing so refers to. In verse 44 Jesus says, prove yourselves ready, this is an active imperative verb in Greek be prepared, he commands. Then following verse 47 we find it continues with the same theme …but if that evil should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying… So we see the context is about being awake and prepared for the masters return and that is what the doing so refers to.
Okay, but what does Luke’s account say, Luke 12:35-45?
First like the account at Matthew we have the parable of men waiting for the master’s return, ending with …you also keep ready because at an hour that you do not think likely the Son of Man is coming (erxomai / coming as at Matthew).
Peter then asks …Lord are you saying this illustration to us or also to all? Trust Peter to open his mouth, surely Jesus wouldn’t need to remind them to be ready. Jesus however answers … who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to (lit.) give in the appointed time (kairo, dative point in time, as at Matthew) the measure of food supplies. Happy is that slave, if his master on coming (elthon the same as at Matthew) finds him doing so. Doing what? Carrying out the order to be prepared (vs40) an active verb in Greek. Then like Matthew it continues with the same context.
Lastly, asks yourself why Jesus might have put it in question form …who really is the FDS… He wouldn’t if he knew he was going to appoint the 12 at Pentecost. No, he asked because he didn’t know who, if any, would be awake and prepared for the master’s return.
Sorry I couldn't make it any easier,
coccus
Thanks for that info.
I think that the WT interpretation of Matt 24:43-48; Lu 12:35-45 is absolutely ridiculous. I think the key is personal preparation for the return of Christ and personal stewardship over those things which God has given to us. The faithful and wise manager (ESV) is the person who faithfully and fairly cares for those for whom they are responsible for, giving them their portion at the proper time. This could refer to parents, employers, teachers, congregation elders, and the possibility of a host of other applications. When the master returns, the faithful manager will be rewarded—a metaphorical picture of the rewards that will be given to faithful believers at the return of Christ. The faithful manager is then contrasted with the unfaithful servant who beats the household servants and gets drunk. This is the person who unfaithfully and unfairly cares for those for whom they are responsible. To the surprise of the unfaithful servant, however, the master will return at an hour he does not know resulting in swift and harsh judgment.
That's my take on the passages.
Matt
Thanks for the insights c i. This thread is another reason why I should take the plunge and get into Greek. But until then thanks to all of the Greek Geeks out here that take the time to analyze the Greek and pass on the info to the rest of us.
The phrase “proper time†has always intrigued me. Why would there be a time element involved with the food distribution, if the food was merely the Scriptures or scriptural application? The Scriptures have been around for thousands of years, and since “all Scripture is inspired and beneficial for sitting things straight and disciplining in righteousness…†etc, it just never seemed right that the “food at the proper time†was going to be second tier magazines and books or discourses that attempted to rehash the inspired Scriptures.
So the meaning of the Greek word karo having the sense of “a particular point in time†confirms my theory around the function of these faithful slaves, that their food provision activities are time sensitive – based on filling some particular need for some particular person - and not a general mass strap on the feedbag type of arrangement as explained by the self proclaimed masters of everyone’s faith at the WT.
And the sense of the word appointed not necessarily having a point in time meaning helps me confirm the idea that the appointing has taken place throughout history, and that it’s not a class of individuals, but a responsibility and action of the entire body of Christ.
So the food distribution - at the proper time - in my opinion is what is happening on these dbs and other places on the web and in person. Persons that have been there done that with finding the beginnings of real truth are in a place to assist the next person in line when the time comes for them to have the scales pulled off their spiritual eyes. I know how hard I looked for the answers when my own personal ship of faith sank, and how glad I was to find persons that could help me take the strange and difficult next steps of the Journey of faith - through the amazing body of Christ that were there - right on and on time - to throw me my own personalized life preserver. The time was definitely right, and I know that I would never have been able to understand had I not been asking the right questions. And when persons such as this get online with real truth, they too become faithful – and discreet – as they watch for opportunities to assist new persons coming online into this wonderful chain of spiritual connection.
As Jesus said, he already knows who his sheep are. And when the time is right, these ones find out the meaning of: “and the Holy Spirit will lead you into ALL the truth.â€
v r
I have been thinking about this for a while, and I am starting to think that too much is being read into these few verses as far as respects the "food at the proper time" bit.
Matt.24 verses 45-51 is an Illustration:
1. We have a MASTER of an estate
2. He has SLAVES
3. He leaves for some time, but before leaving appoints His SLAVES to tasks.
4. When the master returns, he finds that some slaves have been doing as required while others have not.
5. The faithful are rewarded, the evil are punished.
Verses 45-47 highlight the slave who did as asked, thus he is "faithful and discreet"
Verses 48-51 highlight the slave who did not obey, thus the "evil slave".
The point of the illustration is to be obedient to the task assigned by the master in his absence. In doing so, you will be rewarded at his return.
It must also be noted that at Luke 12:48 it is shown that ones understanding of what was asked is also taken into consideration.
SO......
If Christ is the Master and we are the slaves, then what are the tasks which He asks us to be about during His absence?
John 14:23-24 (New International Version)
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Jesus' teachings are found thruout the NT, especially the Gospels.
Each of us, as slaves, must decide if we will be faithful or evil.
Do we love our Master?
Hi all,
I appreciated the explanation of the application of the words "doing so". Doing what? Distributing the food?
If that were true, then there would be 2 appointments. The first to distribute food to the domestics, and the second to to be in charge of all the master's belongings.
But that does not make sense.
However, if the "doing so" relates back to the context of being ready for the return of the master, then it all makes sense. Clearly, the appointment would happen when the master returns. Even the WT reluctantly admits that the second coming of Christ hasn't happened yet. To get around this, they invented the idea of an invisible presents that happened in 1914, and say the appointment happened then. :detective:
However, if the "doing so" relates back to the context of being ready for the return of the master, then it all makes sense. Clearly, the appointment would happen when the master returns.
You have made a great point. You'll notice that any time the WT quotes the text, it always takes it out of the context which you have pointed out. The surrounding context is that of being ready. If we forget that, we loose the intended meaning of the text. Also, stewardship is a part as well, as it is in other parables. We are to be good stewards of our bodies, our time, our families, and so on. This isn't a text that says some Christians are stewards over others, but that each Christian has a stewardship that we must be diligent in stewarding for the Glory of God. "If you eat or drink, do all things to God's glory." When the Lord returns, we will be rewarded, and reign with Him during the Millennium.
Even the WT reluctantly admits that the second coming of Christ hasn't happened yet. To get around this, they invented the idea of an invisible presents that happened in 1914, and say the appointment happened then. :detective:
No, they didn't invent the idea. Don't give them that much credit. Russel borrowed that teaching from other groups and persons.
In the book "Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses" by M. James Penton, (who I met fairly recently), he shows that as far as WT teachings go, there is nothing new under the sun. Russel just took what he wanted from other groups he came into contact with. I think you can read the whole chapter on Russel in that book on Google books.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=38SYXalM...&q&f=false
You want to read Chapter 1: The Beginning of a Movement.
Also, Mr. Preston has some very interesting insights into the Rutherford takeover as well.
But I digress,
Matt
Hi all,
I appreciated the explanation of the application of the words "doing so". Doing what? Distributing the food?
If that were true, then there would be 2 appointments. The first to distribute food to the domestics, and the second to to be in charge of all the master's belongings.
But that does not make sense.
However, if the "doing so" relates back to the context of being ready for the return of the master, then it all makes sense. Clearly, the appointment would happen when the master returns. Even the WT reluctantly admits that the second coming of Christ hasn't happened yet. To get around this, they invented the idea of an invisible presents that happened in 1914, and say the appointment happened then. :detective:
e-magine,
I think that the food being distributed to the domestics contributes to the appointment of the elect.
Also believe the final appointment will include first century Christians and so will happen in conjunction with the resurrection in what Jesus Christ describes as the re-creation.
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
So when the time comes for the real appointment I expect to see the inclusion of 1st Century Christians.
So, yes, the WTBTS have invented and told a lie.
In Christ
abe
Hi all,
I appreciated the explanation of the application of the words "doing so". Doing what? Distributing the food?
If that were true, then there would be 2 appointments. The first to distribute food to the domestics, and the second to to be in charge of all the master's belongings.
But that does not make sense.
However, if the "doing so" relates back to the context of being ready for the return of the master, then it all makes sense. Clearly, the appointment would happen when the master returns. Even the WT reluctantly admits that the second coming of Christ hasn't happened yet. To get around this, they invented the idea of an invisible presents that happened in 1914, and say the appointment happened then. :detective:
That does make much more sense contextually! It also relates to the many times Jesus warns to not be 'sluggish', or sleepy - or in a 'drunken' stupor, but to remain awake and watching - and ready - for his return.
Good stuff! :thumbsup:
Thanks for the insights c i. This thread is another reason why I should take the plunge and get into Greek. But until then thanks to all of the Greek Geeks out here that take the time to analyze the Greek and pass on the info to the rest of us.
The phrase “proper time†has always intrigued me. Why would there be a time element involved with the food distribution, if the food was merely the Scriptures or scriptural application? The Scriptures have been around for thousands of years, and since “all Scripture is inspired and beneficial for sitting things straight and disciplining in righteousness…†etc, it just never seemed right that the “food at the proper time†was going to be second tier magazines and books or discourses that attempted to rehash the inspired Scriptures.
So the meaning of the Greek word karo having the sense of “a particular point in time†confirms my theory around the function of these faithful slaves, that their food provision activities are time sensitive – based on filling some particular need for some particular person - and not a general mass strap on the feedbag type of arrangement as explained by the self proclaimed masters of everyone’s faith at the WT.
And the sense of the word appointed not necessarily having a point in time meaning helps me confirm the idea that the appointing has taken place throughout history, and that it’s not a class of individuals, but a responsibility and action of the entire body of Christ.
So the food distribution - at the proper time - in my opinion is what is happening on these dbs and other places on the web and in person. Persons that have been there done that with finding the beginnings of real truth are in a place to assist the next person in line when the time comes for them to have the scales pulled off their spiritual eyes. I know how hard I looked for the answers when my own personal ship of faith sank, and how glad I was to find persons that could help me take the strange and difficult next steps of the Journey of faith - through the amazing body of Christ that were there - right on and on time - to throw me my own personalized life preserver. The time was definitely right, and I know that I would never have been able to understand had I not been asking the right questions. And when persons such as this get online with real truth, they too become faithful – and discreet – as they watch for opportunities to assist new persons coming online into this wonderful chain of spiritual connection.
As Jesus said, he already knows who his sheep are. And when the time is right, these ones find out the meaning of: “and the Holy Spirit will lead you into ALL the truth.â€
v r
Sounds good to me, the main thing is to hear the sayings of Jesus (Matt 7:24-27) and to keep on the watch .
In my opinion too much emphasis is placed on the words of the apostles and older men who quickly became overwhelmed with their task and soon were more concerned with bringing order, thereby adding a plethora of rules and regulations that had very little to do with Jesus' sayings. Jesus knew this would happen and allowed it because he also knew it would be set to rights ‘in that time’ (kairo ekeno) Dan 12:1. In the process, however, these faithful men of old lost their grip on their foremost commission to hear the sayings of Jesus and keep doing them, and to be on the watch.
Unfortunately, we humans only seem to be capable of bringing order with organizational pyramid structures. Whereas an organized group might start off benign a different dynamic soon applies because of the type of person that gravitates to the top. For instance one may start of with fine gentle fellows in the top tier and one may even have a screening process in place to prevent the more aggressive ambitious personality type making their way up the ladder. But once the pyramid structure comes under pressure from an external source, such as the early Christians did, then the more aggressive CEO will be assigned the top job pronto, and once this type of personality is in place a department (whipping boys) will be set up to bring everyone in line to stand firm against outside pressure.
Hey presto, the foremost commission of the group has morphed from hearing Christ’s sayings and doing them to preserving the group structure and telling others what to do. Growth and headship become paramount, traditions take hold and the faithful are whipped into line with fear of being thrown outside. The slave has started beating his fellows and become drunk with his own importance.
Have a go at Greek and Hebrew it changes the picture radically. What I post is but crumb off the table. I had little formal education but have had the very best teacher.
Love and warm regards from a wriggly little larvae obsessed with growing up.
coccus ilicis
Hi all,
I appreciated the explanation of the application of the words "doing so". Doing what? Distributing the food?
If that were true, then there would be 2 appointments. The first to distribute food to the domestics, and the second to to be in charge of all the master's belongings.
But that does not make sense.
However, if the "doing so" relates back to the context of being ready for the return of the master, then it all makes sense. Clearly, the appointment would happen when the master returns. Even the WT reluctantly admits that the second coming of Christ hasn't happened yet. To get around this, they invented the idea of an invisible presents that happened in 1914, and say the appointment happened then. :detective:
That does make much more sense contextually! It also relates to the many times Jesus warns to not be 'sluggish', or sleepy - or in a 'drunken' stupor, but to remain awake and watching - and ready - for his return.
Good stuff! :thumbsup:
You've got the picture
coccus
Sounds good to me, the main thing is to hear the sayings of Jesus (Matt 7:24-27) and to keep on the watch .
In my opinion too much emphasis is placed on the words of the apostles and older men who quickly became overwhelmed with their task and soon were more concerned with bringing order, thereby adding a plethora of rules and regulations that had very little to do with Jesus' sayings. Jesus knew this would happen and allowed it because he also knew it would be set to rights ‘in that time’ (kairo ekeno) Dan 12:1. In the process, however, these faithful men of old lost their grip on their foremost commission to hear the sayings of Jesus and keep doing them, and to be on the watch.
Hey presto, the foremost commission of the group has morphed from hearing Christ’s sayings and doing them to preserving the group structure and telling others what to do. Growth and headship become paramount, traditions take hold and the faithful are whipped into line with fear of being thrown outside. The slave has started beating his fellows and become drunk with his own importance.
coccus ilicis
Very good points, thanks!
Exactly the view I had in mind when quoting John 14:23-24.
I too appreciate the application you have shared about "doing so".
:thumbup:
wow, what a great thread. :nicethread: my thanks to coccus ilicis and all contributors for some wonderful thoughts. holy spirit in action, folks! :clap:
i don't believe anyone has mentioned this yet, so i will.
faithful and discreet ... faithful and wise ... et al, depending on translation, ... is not an office or status or a title.
it is a simple straightforward description of conduct. all who wish may "step into the shoes."
However, if the "doing so" relates back to the context of being ready for the return of the master, then it all makes sense. Clearly, the appointment would happen when the master returns.
That doesn't make sense to me, not grammatically, not exegetically and not applicatively.
The NET Bible translators for example don't seem to agree with your way of reading:
(Mt 24:45-51 NET)
The Faithful and Wise Slave
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves [tn Grk “give them.â€] their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom the master finds at work [tn That is, doing his job, doing what he is supposed to be doing.] when he comes. 47 I tell you the truth, the master will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave should say to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he begins to beat his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with drunkards, 50 then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee, 51 and will cut him in two,[70] and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[70] tn The verb διχοτομÎω (dicotomew) means to cut an object into two parts (L&N 19.19). This is an extremely severe punishment compared to the other two later punishments. To translate it simply as “punish†is too mild. If taken literally this servant is dismembered, although it is possible to view the stated punishment as hyperbole (L&N 38.12).
Nice try, but keep searching for the complete picture and full light :)
i don't believe anyone has mentioned this yet, so i will.
faithful and discreet ... faithful and wise ... et al, depending on translation, ... is not an office or status or a title.
it is a simple straightforward description of conduct. all who wish may "step into the shoes." [/align]
Absolutely correct, it is a description of what they would be doing, not a title, and like the 5 discreet virgins (Matt 25:1) they would be prepared, watching with lighted lamps for the masters retrun.
Interestingly all the virgins went out/ exailthon (aorist of exerkhomahee Strong’s #18310) to meet the groom. Went out from where? Literally out from their home where they had been cared for by the family head; figuratively they left the shelter/shade of organized religions, to wait for the groom's return. While the bridegroom was delaying they all nodded and went to sleep. Then, right in the middle of the night there arose a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Be on your way out/go forth exerkhesthe (imperative of Strong’s #1831- same word as above). They had already gone out, so where had they gotten comfortable and fallen asleep. Why none other than the shelter of another religious organizational structure that Jehovah had appointed to grow up over them to shelter/shade them (recall Jonah 4:6, 7, 10), a mere growth of the night.
All of them rose and put their lamps in order but the foolish didn’t have enough oil to find their way out to where they would meet the groom… The rest you know.
The light is getting brighter and brighter
coccus ilicis
[quote=e-magine]
However, if the "doing so" relates back to the context of being ready for the return of the master, then it all makes sense. Clearly, the appointment would happen when the master returns.
It doesn't make sense to me, not grammatically, not exegetically and not applicatively.
The NET Bible translators for example don't seem to agree with your way of reading:
(Mt 24:45-51 NET)
The Faithful and Wise Slave
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves [tn Grk “give them.â€] their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom the master finds at work [tn That is, doing his job, doing what he is supposed to be doing.] when he comes.
I'm sorry to give you a shock like that, but it does make sense in Greek. I don't know what Greek text the net Bible uses, but they may have tweaked their translation to make sense of it in English.
In the 'Apostolic Bible Polyglot the Greek does not say whom the master finds at work , but says doing thus poiounta (Sttong's #4160) outos (Strong's #3779) and the Kingdom Interlinear reverses the order saying thus doing . Either way to understand we must identify to what the thus refers.
In English word order dictates that thus refers to what has immediately gone before, in Greek this is not necessarily the case.
I quote in part from Greek grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel B. Wallace pages 8-10
…even whole sentences, without the context, are filled with ambiguities… Further on a paragraph level, though ambiguities lessen, there is still room for interpretation. Thus the broader context rather than the immediate literary context is needed for understanding… and Biblical examples abound.
On an even larger scale misunderstanding takes place-once again, because language is by its nature compressed, cryptic and symbolic. Whole epistles are interpreted in widely divergent ways in part this is due to the distance between the original author-reader matrix and the modern interpreter. It is as if we were listening in on half a phone conversation…
Page 325
… the near-far of outos (this thing) and ekeinos (that) can refer either to that which is near/far in the context, (2) in the writer’s mind, or (3) in space or time of the writers audience… Sometimes these realms are in conflict: what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind, etc. A little imagination is sometimes needed to see the reason for the pronoun.
coccus ilicis