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SlaveOfChrist

07-14-2010, 06:59 PM

coccus ilicis Wrote:

Quote:
SlaveOfChrist

That's still your interpretation of what the Greek text could mean, sorry.

I know the literal source text says doing thus/so/in this way. The NET Bible is not an extreme literal, word-for-word translation (but not freely paraphrasing either); it replaces ancient language idioms with modern-day expressions to get more fluent contemporary language and increase comprehensibility. In this case "finds at work" was chosen precisely to clarify the somewhat bland literal rendering, revealing the translators' interpretation.


As you say the application of doing so or doing the work are interpretations of the translators. I question your refernce to a literal translation of a language as extreme. I would have thought those seeking as accurate an rendition of Jesus' words would welcome a literal rendering and try to accomodate it in their translation, even if it might sound bland or not quite right to the 'educated' ear.

Quote:
...only application of "appointment" is a still future one, this would imply that from the 1st century up until now the house personnel of the master has not been "served food" at all. It's not very plausible the slaves have all that time been undernourished or even left starving, and all of them have been idle workers, neglecting vital responsibilities and the needs of their fellow slaves.

Was Peter, for instance, --the very one who asked 'Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?' (Lk 12:41)-- "appointed" to "serve food"?
(Jn 21:15-17 NET)
Then when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these do?” He replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I love you...
I'm not saying this to discourage you in any way from examining Scripture like you are doing and digging for the deeper meaning, irrespective of what standard translations or traditional explanations say. That's the right spirit! But ultimately very few interpretations will stand the test, it's tough...
[color=#0000FF](Lk 12:47-48 NET; compare with Mt 25:29; Lk 19:26; James 3:1)
That servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or do what his master asked will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know his master’s will and did things worthy of punishment will receive a light beating. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, even more will be asked.


I think you missed my point, I said Jesus had commissioned no one at the time he spoke those words at Matt 24 and Lu 12, and Matthew appropriatly used the aorist structure and Luke the future, because this apppointment had to do with the FDS at kairo/a point of time at his coming, which was still future.
His conversation with Peter and John at John 21, which you quote above occurred after Jesus was raised, and is a seperate setting; contextually at John 21 he is giving Peter a set down and something else to think about other than his rivalry with John.

Love c.i.


Hi Coccus,

Literal translations and interlinears are extremely valuable tools to seperate what's really in the original text from "semantic sugar" added in the translation process. But: text structure and connection, grammatical structure, and language idioms should be taken in account to get the sense, the full richness of the thoughts behind the words.

If you analyse the grammatical structure of Mt 24:45 (drawing a syntax tree diagram may help), you'll see that <en kairō> is an adverbial clause belonging to <the nourishment> given, and not belonging to <sets, places over, appoints>.
en kairō is an idiom for: in proper time, in (due) season.
In the illustration, the slaves are nourished in proper time, that is: repeatedly, daily and timely.
Something to think about: if the appointment takes place at one single point in time in the far future, then why was the aorist used and not a simple future tense? Is the responsibility over "catering services" different from that over all belongings/possessions/goods of the master? When does a slave fully proves to earn the predicate trustworthy, at the time of his initial appointment or after having served for a considerable period of time?

By the way, it's also clear from the syntax that the trustworthy and sensible slave (hopefully remaining so until the end) is not appointed over his fellow slaves -- as several bible translations are giving the false impression -- but is set over a task, entrusted with responsibility and care essential for the proper functioning of the house arrangement, serving his fellow slaves and not ruling over them (Compare: Lk 22:25-27; Mr 9:35).

The passage in Jn 21 is a different setting, a similar message and the same lesson IMHO, in my effort to harmonize scriptures.

Well, it seems we'll have to agree to disagree on these points. I'm not so easily persuaded :)

coccus ilicis

07-23-2010, 10:07 PM
[quote]

veritas re Wrote:
Thanks for the insights c i. This thread is another reason why I should take the plunge and get into Greek.


Hi to anyone interesested in looking up scripture or a Greek or Hebrew word.

This link http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlinear-bible/
takes you to a site I have found very useful. It takes a little practice to get to know all the ins and outs of it, but when you do it's a powerful tool.

Love coccus ilicis

ablebodiedman

07-24-2010, 05:57 PM

Resolute Wrote:

ablebodiedman Wrote:

coccus ilicis Wrote:

Quote:
ablebodiedman
I believe the Book of Revelation speaks to an extraordinary manifestation of this occurring in the end times when it says:


Revelation 17
“And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].”


The Apostle Paul also told the Thessalonians that a "son of destruction" would profane the temple sometime before the return of Jesus Christ.

I believe that some saints will be found corrupted just as Judas Iscariot was in the first Century.

The faithful would see this corruption and be drawn into conflict (battle) with the unfaithful.

A faithful and an evil slave will be present and in conflict when Jesus Christ returns.

I believe that many of the posts in this and other forums are manifestations of this ongoing conflict (battle).


Hi abe,

You and Micah add some good points to strengthen the case. At firts I wasn't so sure about the 10 horns and the WB at Rev 17. But I think you have hit on an important connection.

I quote from the Apostolic Polyglot Bible. This interlinear contains both the Septuagint and Greek/New Testament. In most cases the New Testament portion is much the same as the Westcott and Hort Greek text used by the WBTS, but at Rev 13:14 there is one small but significant difference.

Westcott and Hort/Kingdome Interlinear Rev. 13:14 reads:
…and it is making to err/misleads the(ones) dwelling upon the earth through the signs…

The Apostolic Greek Rev 13:14 read:
… and it/he misleads the ones OF MINE the ones dwelling upon the earth through the signs…
Is that not interesting? It is a variant reading of the Greek, but knowing human nature one can imagine a zealous copyists considering the words of mine to be in error and editing it out of the text.

It fits in well with your analysis of the ten horns a Rev 17.
And the light is getting brighter and brighter.

Love,
c.i.



coccus,

Thanks for bringing that translation to my attention.

It certainly does change the sentiment behind the scripture.

Yes, even on this forum members seem horrified to think that saints or Christianity could be thoroughly undermined by the time Jesus Christ returns.

It is not something that a person who considers themselves to be a Christian wants to believe, let alone think about.

The thought torments them, and rightly so.

Consider the scripture further:

and it/he misleads the ones OF MINE the ones dwelling upon the earth through the signs…

Why does the scripture say "dwelling on the earth"?

It implies that some are not dwelling on the earth at that time.

Perhaps because they died before the end time signs.

If the sentiment is appreciated then now apply it to where; "those dwelling on the earth" is mentioned elsewhere in Revelation.

Consider this:

Revelation 11:10
And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth.

I personally believe the same sentiment applies.

The ones being tormented are anointed saints who have been deceived and undermined.

Christianity corrupted.

Yes, not a popular thought!


Expect a lot of conflict (a battle) for exposing it.


These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].”


Consider this also.

There are many literal wars and battles between pagan nations at this time however, the saints really are the most powerful people in the world.

Presidents and prime ministers, pagan kings, pale by comparison.

The real "battle" of consequence is the one between the evil and faithful slave, the anointed saints, the true "kings of the earth".


Revelation 1
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”


In Christ

abe


Hi abe and coccus:hibye:

I've often wanted to post my thoughts on this topic (Rev. 17 and the holy ones) but have never quite seen where to fit it in. This is real "jig-saw" stuff.:thumbup:

Here's a quick synopsis of how I see things unfolding. To save time, I won't be quoting all the scriptural references but will supply them on demand. Here goes:

From the first century onward the members of body of the Christ have been added to the whole. Some suffered martyrdom because of their faith, some died of other causes. The whole of them made up the Israel of God.

When Revelation chapter 7 talks of 12,000 from each tribe being sealed, I believe that these ones are the "bride". Just as Eve was taken from Adam's body, so the bride of Christ is taken from his body. The ones taken are those who had died a death like Christ (follow the lamb wherever he goes -- see Philippians 3:10). The ones who are already dead by Martyrdom are spoken of at the opening of the fifth seal. Their souls (blood) are under the altar. Being given a white robe signifies that they have been selected as part of the bride, waiting for the rest of their number to be filled of those who would likewise suffer a Martyr's death.

So, now you have two groups, one taken from the other. It's important to remember this point 'cause it's going to come into play later on.

The 144,000 group are sealed because these ones are not only called and chosen, but their sealing is evidence that they will also be faithful -- to the death. The living members of this group are the ones that John is told to measure in Revelation 11 (sanctuary and altar). These comprise the two witnesses that prophesy for 3 1/2 years dressed in sackcloth.

Remember that the judgment starts with the house of God. The courtyard was not to be measured by John but rather given to the Gentiles to be trampled for the 3 1/2 years (42 months). So, in effect, the courtyard and those in it did not measure up at that point and are allowed by God to undergo further testing to refine them.

The two witnesses are killed, and then, together with the now resurrected rest of the bride, are called to "come up here". I believe this is the birth of the child that is caught away to God and his throne in Revelation 12. Same event -- different viewpoint.

When Revelation 12 speaks of the dragon dragging a third of the stars, I reject the WT teaching that these stars are the angels that Satan corrupted at the time of the flood. I believe that these "stars" are unfaithful ones in the body (not the bride) of Christ who have lost their heavenly standing.

In the Greek -- correct me if I'm wrong -- of Revelation 12:4, it doesn't say that Satan hurled these stars of heaven "down to the earth" it says "into the earth".

Bear with me on this point.

First of all, stars often stand for holy ones. These can shine like the firmament, bringing light to others, as in Daniel. Or, they can be like wormword, dealing in death and bitterness -- stars with no set course (Jude)

We live in a linear time/space, whereas the "heavenlies" live in divine (aionian) time. Satan will be cast out of this divine time/space/dimension and into our linear time/space dimension....earth time. That is why he will know he has but a short time left.

These stars that his tail drags, that he hurls into the earth are the ones that were once granted to be sons of God by their belief in Christ but who allow the devil to corrupt them. They lose their heavenly position, are not chosen to be part of Christ's bride and it will be made clear to them so that they jealously join in the devil's work of attempting to corrupt/destroy the remaining ones of the woman's seed (sons of the new covenant).

Then ensues a furious struggle as the rejected ones join forces with the secular powers under Satan's direction and "battle with the lamb" for another 3 1/2 years wherein a counterfeit kingdom is set up to deceive, if possible, even the chosen ones -- the remaining Israel of God or body of Christ.

There is more stuff in this noggin of mine regarding the second 3 1/2 years. Like, the covenant being kept in force for the many and sacrifice and gift offering being made to cease as in Daniel 9, corresponding to Christ being put to death at the half of the week and the rest of the week being a time to bring the remnant of natural Israel into the New Covenant.....but this post is already way too long, eh?

love to you all:grouphug:
Rez


Rez,

Yep, I believe the fallen stars are the wheat that Satan has successfully undermined.

I do not believe that Satan has created a counterfeit kingdom.

I believe that he has undermined THE kingdom.

That is why the remaining stars have no where else to go except the wilderness (outside the camp) where they will still be persecuted by Satan and his weeds as well as the stars or wheat that he has successfully undermined.

The evil slave (fallen stars) will beat their own brothers, the faithful slave.

The stars in the wilderness with no where else to go except to follow Jesus Christ no matter how corrupted his kingdom becomes.


When Jesus Christ returns to judge HIS kingdom these ones will indeed shine like stars:


Matthew 13
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


In Christ

abe

coccus ilicis

07-25-2010, 11:15 AM
[

Quote:
Matthew 13
41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

In Christ

abe
[/quote]

Hi Abe,
Here is another way to look at this. At Matt 13:30 Jesus says ...let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them into bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouses...

There is an anomaly here. Usually it is the wheat that is tied into bundles and stacked to dry out before being gathered into the storehouse, but here the angels are told to tie the weeds into bundles for the burn up and then gather the wheat into storehouses. This seems to indicate there will be a clear separation with weeds bound firmly into organizational structures/bundles and the wheat left outside (in open unfenced land or wilderness).

It brings to mind Rev 18:4… Get out of her my people…

Also, note the similarity of how the worshippers of Baal were collected together for destruction 2Ki 10:21-24 …Jehu said sanctify a solemn assembly for Baal (owner/master/husband) …Jehu sent through all Israel, so that all the worshippers of Baal came in and not a single one was left over that did not come in… He now said to the worshippers of Baal: “Search carefully and see that there may be here with you none of the worshipers of Jehovah but only the worshippers of Baal…

I think the separation has started.

My guess is that ultimately every religion will have to be registered and receive official sanction in order to be legal, and every person will be classified (even as in the census) as belonging to one of these religions or belief systems (including atheism) agnosticism or whatever.
Any worshipper not willing to be affiliated with an officially sanctioned belief system will have all rights removed.

Sauch a fledgling World Parliament of Religion has already existed for some time. All it needs is a catalyst to bring the necessary pressure to bear world wide.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeOThRXzqxQ

Love,
coccus ilicis

ablebodiedman

07-25-2010, 12:57 PM

coccus ilicis Wrote:
It brings to mind Rev 18:4… Get out of her my people…

Also, note the similarity of how the worshippers of Baal were collected together for destruction 2Ki 10:21-24 …Jehu said sanctify a solemn assembly for Baal (owner/master/husband) …Jehu sent through all Israel, so that all the worshippers of Baal came in and not a single one was left over that did not come in… He now said to the worshippers of Baal: “Search carefully and see that there may be here with you none of the worshipers of Jehovah but only the worshippers of Baal…

I think the separation has started.

Love,
coccus ilicis


coccus,

The illustrations in Matthew Chapter 13 allude to a separation of the wicked from the righteous.

I also think that Jesus Christ gives more clues in Luke.

Luke 12
“I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.”


There is indeed a fire intended (fiery furnace).

Also a division that will strike to the heart of a family.

In my opinion the division will be caused over his baptism.


I believe that Jesus Christ further clarified what John the Baptist said here:

Matthew 3
That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”

I also think the separation may already be occurring.

Malachi said there would come a time when we would see the difference.

Malachi 3
And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”


Before the fire is lighted?

Malachi 4
For, look! the day is coming that is burning like the furnace, and all the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble.


In Christ

abe

coccus ilicis

08-02-2010, 11:05 AM

ablebodiedman Wrote:

coccus ilicis Wrote:
It brings to mind Rev 18:4… Get out of her my people…

Also, note the similarity of how the worshippers of Baal were collected together for destruction 2Ki 10:21-24 …Jehu said sanctify a solemn assembly for Baal (owner/master/husband) …Jehu sent through all Israel, so that all the worshippers of Baal came in and not a single one was left over that did not come in… He now said to the worshippers of Baal: “Search carefully and see that there may be here with you none of the worshipers of Jehovah but only the worshippers of Baal…

I think the separation has started.

Love,
coccus ilicis


coccus,

The illustrations in Matthew Chapter 13 allude to a separation of the wicked from the righteous.

I also think that Jesus Christ gives more clues in Luke.

Luke 12
“I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lighted? 50 Indeed, I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished! 51 Do YOU imagine I came to give peace on the earth? No, indeed, I tell YOU, but rather division. 52 For from now on there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against [her] mother, mother-in-law against [her] daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against [her] mother-in-law.”


There is indeed a fire intended (fiery furnace).

Also a division that will strike to the heart of a family.

In my opinion the division will be caused over his baptism.


I believe that Jesus Christ further clarified what John the Baptist said here:

Matthew 3
That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”

I also think the separation may already be occurring.

Malachi said there would come a time when we would see the difference.

Malachi 3
And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.”


Before the fire is lighted?

Malachi 4
For, look! the day is coming that is burning like the furnace, and all the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble.


In Christ

abe



Hi Abe,

With regard to
...I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished... In my opinion the division will be caused over his baptism.

Do you see this as a literal baptism? I would have thought this baptism referred to his baptism into death, which finishes when the last of his body (brothers) are raised to be with him, see Mark 10:38, 39; Matt 20:22.

John’s words: …That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire… also seems to indicate a figurative baptism of a severe test on Christ’s brothers, perhaps that of (Rev 14:9,12) ending with the 2 witnesses being killed and raised.

I agree, the separation is well under way.

On another subject, but still related, Rev 6:12-17 speaks of a great earthquake occurring. The Greek word, seismos translated earthquake, is not limited to the quaking of the earth in Greek, compare Matt 8:24 where the same word is used in relation to a severe storm—it literally just means severe shaking. It occurs again further down in Rev 6:13 … by a great wind being shaken (seismos). I think that what it refers to here is an extreme weather event rather than an earth quake. If I am correct then …the heavens being separated as a scroll (6:14)… is a description of a massive cyclone as seen from space. Also military commanders etc, would not be sheltering in caves and under rock masses if it referred to a quaking of the earth. (vs15)

I think this climate change, heralding severe weather events, is already upon us. In Ausie where I live we had fire storms right across the state the summer before last. A friend from Moscow just sent me the links below. He was skeptical of climate change but has now changed his tune. They had an extremely cold winter and now this unprecedented heat wave. I have lived in Moscow and I can tell you the current temperatures are off the charts.
http://pogoda.yandex.ru/27612/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIkv80KT424&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na_XF_Ee7...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2cW-aAvACU

Yes, everything is coming together for the end.

In reading across the posts one can feel the tension, we may differ in the how, when or whys, but there is an underlying tension and expectancy. Once the daystar rises fully in our hearts we will see clearly and will perhaps be granted a work. What a privilege that would be.

Love,
coccus ilicis

ablebodiedman

08-02-2010, 01:51 PM

coccus ilicis Wrote:
Hi Abe,

With regard to
...I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and how I am being distressed until it is finished... In my opinion the division will be caused over his baptism.

Do you see this as a literal baptism? I would have thought this baptism referred to his baptism into death, which finishes when the last of his body (brothers) are raised to be with him, see Mark 10:38, 39; Matt 20:22.

John’s words: …That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire… also seems to indicate a figurative baptism of a severe test on Christ’s brothers, perhaps that of (Rev 14:9,12) ending with the 2 witnesses being killed and raised.

I agree, the separation is well under way.

On another subject, but still related, Rev 6:12-17 speaks of a great earthquake occurring. The Greek word, seismos translated earthquake, is not limited to the quaking of the earth in Greek, compare Matt 8:24 where the same word is used in relation to a severe storm—it literally just means severe shaking. It occurs again further down in Rev 6:13 … by a great wind being shaken (seismos). I think that what it refers to here is an extreme weather event rather than an earth quake. If I am correct then …the heavens being separated as a scroll (6:14)… is a description of a massive cyclone as seen from space. Also military commanders etc, would not be sheltering in caves and under rock masses if it referred to a quaking of the earth. (vs15)

I think this climate change, heralding severe weather events, is already upon us. In Ausie where I live we had fire storms right across the state the summer before last. A friend from Moscow just sent me the links below. He was skeptical of climate change but has now changed his tune. They had an extremely cold winter and now this unprecedented heat wave. I have lived in Moscow and I can tell you the current temperatures are off the charts.
http://pogoda.yandex.ru/27612/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIkv80KT424&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na_XF_Ee7...re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2cW-aAvACU

Yes, everything is coming together for the end.

In reading across the posts one can feel the tension, we may differ in the how, when or whys, but there is an underlying tension and expectancy. Once the daystar rises fully in our hearts we will see clearly and will perhaps be granted a work. What a privilege that would be.

Love,
coccus ilicis


coccus,

Yes, I see this as the literal baptism.

I don't think the anointed slave and their domestics undergo a different literal baptism.

Ephesians 4:1
I, therefore, the prisoner in [the] Lord, entreat YOU to walk worthily of the calling with which YOU were called, 2 with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, 3 earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.


The anointed however, can expect the same kind of treatment that Jesus Christ received.

I think the literal baptism has already been compromised.

This is why Jesus Christ is distressed.

I believe that it does indeed have a great deal to do with the holy spirit.

For more detail watch the video "The Unforgivable Sin" in my signature.



In Christ

abe

ablebodiedman

08-02-2010, 01:57 PM
Coccus,

Yes, I watched those video's about the heat waves and forest fires in Russia.

There are also large forest fires in British Columbia, Canada.

Pakistan also endured a very large heat wave.

Now enormous floods in Pakistan.

The oil spills in USA and China.

Lots of tension world wide.

It makes me think the four winds have been released:


Revelation 7
After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”


The earth, the sea and the trees are being harmed.


In Christ

abe
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