Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

One of the things we were taught by the WT is that, the reason we've been waiting some 6,000 years for God to fully rule, is that He has been allowing Man to experiment with independence, and trying different governments.

The 6,000 years was often referred to as "man's rule".

The problem with this line of reasoning is that, in reality, Man has never really had a full chance to experience "independence" or his own rule...

(1) God intervened with a Flood some 4,300 years ago, wiping out all living things apart from those on the Ark. (By the way... are we absolutely sure God didn't reset the 6,000 year clock at the Flood?). This was a consequence of angelic "intervention".

(2) God confused the languages at Babel... a major intervention, one might add... the equivalent of breaking your child's leg to prevent them from growing too strong.

(3) Satan claims to actually rule over the kingdoms, and at the very least is misleading the nations... meaning that Man hasn't really been able to rule properly, without this malevolent interference.

(4) The Bible actually tells us that God overthrows kings and kingdoms. How does that fit in with the idea of man's independence, and being allowed to try out different governments, if God can, and occasionally does, overthrow them at will?

(5) Biblical and secular accounts show that God has actively helped kings who were on His side. For example, Israel often defeated secular kings. Josephus also records a kingdom in the 1st century AD that converted to Judaism, and the king prayed to God and was spared an invasion.

The point is... there's something fundamentally flawed with the idea that God has essentially left Man to get on with it... clearly He's been quite interventionist throughout history... particularly prior to the arrival of Jesus.

Given these factors, what is the REAL reason we've been waiting 6,000 years or so?
What does the term "human rule" even mean, when God intervenes from time to time?

A good question, intp. They used to call it 'the vindication of Jehovah's name', if I remember right.

It makes you wonder what the time was for, if not that.

it is a good question and one I have thought about as it seems to me the lesson has been learned if it is a matter of man not knowing how to govern himself--but then I surrendered a long time ago. Surely all these decades of angst have been for really really good reasons...

I have pondered this also. We might also ask, why have 2000 years gone by without the return of our Lord? Was it necessary to wait until the computer age? :help:

Hi Interpretum,

Perhaps the 6000 years, or so, of "human rule" is just as fictional as the 6000 years, or so, of "human existence".

"two lepta"

LTA,
John

I would agree with that 1 OF MINI.

I would say records for th court. but that is just me

Yeah, those fallen angels totally interloped on mankind's "test". That messed up the entire experiment, thus God had to wipe the slate clean and start it all over again. And I never thought of your point before...is it possible that God reset the clock after the flood? Hmmmmm.....

This is how I look at it: When God gave mankind opportunity to prove themselves worthy of self-rule His command for mankind to fill the earth was still in effect. Remember, the people intended for the Tower to keep them together instead of scattering throughout the earth, therefore, God had to thwart their efforts (Genesis 11:4, 8-9).

The only reason mankind decided to rule themselves was due to Satanic interference in the first place (Genesis 3), they didn't decide it on their own. It is Satan's influence that caused Adam and Eve to reject God's rulership, so essentially they were choosing to rule according to Satan's parameters, not God's (Remember, Satan wants to be god too). Satan's parameters say "Anything goes!", and since humans wanted that, God is letting them prove whether its a viable choice.

Again, allowing us to prove our independence does not mean canceling out His original decrees. God didn't hand over the fate of the entire universe to mankind, He only handed them the freedom to choose their own rules. This doesn't mean they get to interfere with HIS plans, they just get to make their own plans outside of His parameters; this doesn't obligate God to let us dictate HIS agenda.

Although God is respecting our trial period, He is not callously ignoring us or spurning us in the process.

Jesus Christ tells us that, even as an insignificant sparrow is important to the Father, so we are so much more important. God even knows the number of hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:29-31)! Jesus also tells us that God will feed us, clothe us, and look after us so long as we seek Him and His Kingdom above all else (Matthew 6:25-33). This does not sound like a distant, aloof God, does it?

It is also important to note that, throughout scripture, when bad things happened to people, God continued to assist those who looked to Him for help (Joshua 2:12-14 with 6:17-25, 1 Kings 17:1-6, Daniel 3:17-27, Daniel 6:16-22, Acts 5:19-20, Acts 28:3-5, etc.).

As scripture shows , God has not been standing on the sidelines buffing His nails and whistling a tune. Although He is obligated to let His word stand in regard to human sovereignty, He is still ready to stand with us and for us when we look to Him (Romans 8:31). [/quote]

"Human Rule" means that He allows us to make decisions and try things that He doesn't necessarily approve of. He only intervenes on two occasions:
1 -- When we are stepping over our boundaries and into his.
2 -- When we actually seek Him for assistance.
And, in reality, He really isn't interfering when we ask for His assistance; remember, it's a matter of letting us choose our rulership, and if we choose to seek God's help, that's part of our test too.


P.S. This does not mean I subscribe to the teaching of a 6,000 years of anything, this is just my take on the events in general.

Hi Totaldismay

Good point. That seems to be supported by the following scripture:

"I kept on beholding until there were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down. ... // ... The Court took its seat, and there were books that were opened." (Daniel 7:9,10)

"I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself." (Daniel 7:21,22)

It sounds like the holy ones receive the kingdom based on a Court case. :D

Hi Melancholymuse

Thanks for your reply, and you made some interesting points.

I'm not sure I totally subscribe to this point of view. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they didn't know they were being tempted by a malevolent spirit with his own agenda... they were just naive, and greedy.

I'd suggest they were choosing to rule according to their OWN parameters, rather than Satan's. They wanted to be like God, knowing good and bad.

Besides, their offspring certainly did not make that choice... they were born into it, and for a long time had no choice to live in it, unless you were lucky enough to be around the patriarchs.

Great points. :thumbup:

Again, great points... and I didn't mean to imply that God has abandoned us, or mankind in general. In fact, perhaps that is precisely what He is waiting for :drinking: ... for mankind to call on Him.

Not that you asked, but this is my thoughts on the situation: ;)

The bible reveals that Satan was originally named "Lucifer" or "Morning Star" (Isaiah 14:12) ; he was the angelic guardian of Eden who had fallen due to his excessive pride (Ezekiel 28:12-19) . Since he was the Guardian of Eden, Adam and Eve would have been familiar with his presence. Since there was no sin or evil yet in the world, they had no reason to be wary of the Guardian.

Many people question the thought of Eve readily accepting a speaking snake. However, this was no ordinary snake: This was the Guardian Lucifer speaking to her. It is not know whether he entered an already living snake, or if he only made himself look like a snake. Either way, it is likely that she recognized the snake as Lucifer in some way; after all, she was familiar with this Guardian. Since she had no experience with sin, deception, or other such nonsense, she would have no clue towards what was happening -- up to this point she had every reason to trust him, and Lucifer exploited her naivete.

Lucifer began by casting doubt on the command to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge by asking her in incorrect question: "Do I understand that God told you not to eat from any tree in the garden?" (Genesis 3:1). Eve corrected his erroneous question, stating " "Not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It's only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, 'Don't eat from it; don't even touch it or you'll die.'" (Genesis 3:2-3).

Now, we know that God gave the direct command to Adam (Genesis 2:16-17 ). However, nothing in scripture states that God directly told Eve. Although her reply to the serpent showed that she was aware of this command (Genesis 3:2-3), it doesn't not say that God Himself told her about it. I believe that she got the information from Adam and not God, because if God Himself gave her the command, she would be firm in her surety, there would be no doubts. However, if she received the information via Adam instead, then Lucifer's question could cause her to question Adam's accuracy of information. After all, if the Lucifer Snake didn't quite have the correct information about which tree to avoid, perhaps Adam also didn't have the most accurate information as well. This is possibly where the deception began to take root.

Lucifer then informs her: "You won't die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's really going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil." (Genesis 3:4-5).

Now Eve is confused: Lucifer, a trusted guardian, seems to be correcting some information for her. Had Adam told her something wrong by mistake? And now this Garden guardian is telling her something a little different. The guardian was placed there in Eden by God, so....

As she considered all of this, she saw that the fruit from the Tree looked delicious -- and perhaps it could give her better knowledge as well; she didn't need to remain confused, so she ate some of the fruit. Afterwards, she also gave some of the fruit to Adam (Genesis 3:6). Perhaps she shared it with him to ensure she would never have to doubt his information again. Regardless, her intentions backfired miserably.

Now, Eve may have had her doubts about the command from God, but Adam did not -- after all, Adam was told directly from God, he shouldn't have had any doubts! If this was the case, then why did he eat the fruit anyway? It could be any number of reasons: Maybe he saw that Eve wasn't dead after eating the fruit, so he ate it too. Perhaps he thought God wasn't watching (since Eve ate the fruit without punishment) and thought he could sneak in a bite or two as well. Maybe he was a little envious that she had some of it and so he wanted a taste as well. Whatever the reason, we do know one thing: Scripture tells us that only Eve was deceived (1 Timothy 2:14)(NIV, KJV, INT). Since Adam was not deceived (after all, he got the commandment directly from God, the instruction couldn't be any clearer), the scripture places the fall of mankind squarely on him (Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22).

The biggest problem here is that Eve realized the discrepancy between God's words and Lucifer's, yet she did not seek to resolve it. She was much more interested in being like God instead, as Lucifer had suggested. And since she shared the fruit with Adam, he apparently wanted to be like God too.

Since they were looking to be their own gods, they were essentially rejecting God's rulership. They were indicating that they wanted to be their own rulers, implying that they could do as good a job as God, if not better. This was a direct challenge to God's sovereignty.

This incident in Eden caused a direct challenge to His sovereignty, and this challenge did not go unseen; the bible states that the angels were already in existence when the world was being created (Job 38:4-7). This means that this challenge was made not only in front of God, His Son, Lucifer, and the two humans -- this challenge was made in front of the entire heavenly host as well! Since there are many legions of angels in existence (2 Kings 6:17, Matthew 26:53), there was a throng of witnesses to these events.

Because this situation was so public, there was the possiblity of God's sovereignty being challenged again and again if He didn't resolve the matter. Killing Adam and Eve immediately wouldn't have resolved it because He already commanded them to fill the earth with people (Genesis 1:28). To kill them immediately would be breaking His own command. Instead, he came up with a better solution, which came in two parts:


1. Prevent them from gaining access to the Tree of Life, (Genesis 3:22-23) so that they will still endure the consequences of eating the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17). This will fulfill the consequences without breaking His command to procreate.

2. Since Adam and Eve now knew the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3:22, the first line of the verse), He would allow humankind a set amount of time, a generous trial period, to show that they can govern themselves without His help. He chose to allow plenty of time, probably so that nobody could accuse Him of not giving enough time.

Of course, Adam and Eve sought to govern themselves at the behest of Lucifer / Satan, not by their own whim. So the way I see it, although the present world is in Satan's hands, it is also the choice of humans choosing not to listen to God's way.

I think We're looking at this from an incorrect human viewpoint. It wasn't Adam and Eve's sin that has a bearing on Gods sovereignty,. it was Satan's rebellion! We are only pawns in the game.
Maybe the length of time,, should be view from God's vantage point.
God had to give Satan enough time to prove his claim.
Man's rule is a fallacy! Its never been!

As far as 6000 years goes, there has been about 6000 years of recorded history, but that doesn't mean that human kind isn't older then that. The first chapters of Genesis are a metaphor for what actually happened. How could it be anything else?

I must say not everyone believes that e-magine. Some of us think that the Genesis account lays the foundation for the rest of the Bible and without that the rest of the Bible doesn't make sense--just saying..... :hibye:

Hi Wolfie,

I see it from both sides; the Bible can still make just as much sense taking Genesis as pure metaphor.

"two lepta" - "just saying" ...;)

LTA,
John