Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

rev 2 around verse 24

But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call(AX) the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I(AY) do not lay on you any other burden. 25Only hold fast(AZ) what you have until I come. 26(BA) The one who conquers and who keeps my works(BB) until the end,(BC) to him I will give authority over the nations, 27and(BD) he will(BE) rule them with a rod of iron,(BF) as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28And I will give him(BG) the morning star. 29(BH) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

I just realized based on another reading.

Jesus is not the one that will be doing the smashing of the pots.

It is the one who has overcome and has done the works of Jesus!!

I do not quite understand if it is plural or singular but it is seperate it seems from the rest of thyatira!

And this seems not to be able to fit into a preterist line of thought as who is dashing all the nations to peices toady?

Unless of course it is the world ruling power?

It never stops amazing me how many times I read and reread and only get it! when it is time for me.

Total Dismay,

As far as I am concerned the entire book of Revelation is intended for these kings;

Revelation 1
and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth.”


When it says "kings" in the other chapters of Revelation the popular thing to do is switch the theme and replace these "kings of the earth" with some kind of pagan kings.

Don't do that!

Now try reading the rest of Revelation with this in mind.


You might see how the Watchtower Society has completely perverted this book with their interpretation.


In Christ

abe

Total Dismay,

If you have discerned that Jesus Christ will use his kings to smash the Nations then what will Jesus Christ be doing when he returns?


Matthew 13
The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


In my opinion Jesus Christ is coming to set things straight in HIS kingdom only.

Once that is done then the Kings of his Kingdom will smash the Nations and bring to ruin those ruining the earth.

At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.




In Christ

abe

Hey Abe,

I do know that you are doing your best, but please keep in mind we all are given gifts but we also need to discern when and where to apply them, at least that is what i understand Faithfull and discrete to be.

With that said I think you are partially correct. as i have said before. I think you may have missed some things just as I had missed that the basic structure goes from Father > Son > brother "or Brothers" who will basically get the nations back into alignment.

I think at this moment that it is not the purpose of all "brothers" of JC to be those Kings that smash the nations.
I think the seven congs elude to a far more harmonious body of Christ based on unity while being diverse. As an eg... the family structure a mans giftst are different then a womans as well as children who grow in good loving and supporting environments shine even differently then parents based on the "lack of responsibility" but they are needed to make a family whole. do you see what I mean?

Some people are just to soft hearted and cannot lay down the "law" so to speak. not that the others are "mean" but it does take a certain quality to be FAIR and also the goto person.
That is exactly why I always thought it was Jesus who would be the one with the iron rod and do the smashing himself.

So now that I see it is not it opens up a whole nother view for me. One such that may not be so comfortable people who believe in non violence in any and all circumstances.

If it is indeed humans that do the smashing then it means conflict. I kinda always thought it was a more super natural way.

As well many other things fall into place better based on this new point. The other congs gifts can be re examined as well to get an idea kingdoms structure

notice the blue/purple hand?




:coffeeread:

Totaldismay, my :2cents:

Revelation 2:26-27 (New American Standard Bible)
26. 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27. AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father

Here at the end of the text we see that Jesus himself also has this authority to rule with a rod of iron, given to Him by his Father. The first comments show He then gives this same authority to His brothers, while also retaining it himself.

Note the discription of Jesus and the authority he has been given by the Father:

Revelation 19:15 (New American Standard Bible)
15. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

And here we have more clearification as to who will be sharing with Him in His authority:

Revelation 17:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14. "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

So,(IMHO) it seems that Jesus is given the authority to rule the nations with a rod of iron, He then also gives this same authority to His brothers. But I believe it is given to them after they have been raised to heaven, not while alive on earth as humans.

Note that they do not get authority until they "came to life" in the first resurrection:

Revelation 20:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 3:21 (New American Standard Bible)
21. 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

:drinking: jayme

Hi Jayme,

I could be wrong but you too fell into the same trap,

first who wrote revelations? Jesus ? YES?\/NO

who was speaking to the seven congregations? Jesus ? YES/NO

please read again without your accent

27.AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father

if need be good back to the context pls.

why would Jesus say "HE shall rule" and follow up with as "I have been given authority".


who's kingdom is it? it is Jesus kingdom himself, so he therefore must be the one delegating.

"The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom"

Who was the only one worthy to open the scoll? Jesus was

So I think we were taught to replace Jesus with his fathers authority and then the picture bro gogh pointed out confirms this with the visual.
it gives us a false start on reading.

So my conclusion to this is Jesus is fully King answers to no one while it is his rule. hence why he hands the kingdom back to his father in the end.

and while he is king he has the people who administer his kingdom and at least one is the rule maker who seemingly come across with an iron rod of justice approach.

I think it will make my reading of rev interesting once again.

and your point about them coming to "LIFE in the first resurection is well noted" that alone is a subject well worth talking about.
Has this FIRST resurection even started? IF not who is making the rules and why?



Pls feel free to disagree.

Totaldismay,

I believe with all the calamities happening in the world that the winds have been released. Indicating that the Kings have been recently sealed.


Revelation 7
1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”


From this time onward it does not matter if they die or not.


Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say: “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with [the] Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”


I have not seen Babylon the Great fall yet.


Watching carefully though.


In Christ

abe

Hi Totaldismay

I'm not entirely sure of what you're asking. Are you asking about the TIMING, or about WHO is doing the breaking? (Or both?)

For the timing, Jesus made it quite plain when he departed that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Mathew 28:18)... that was back in 33AD!

So Jesus already had the authority to "smash the pots", as it were. Although I believe he will do this in a final, Daniel 2 kind of sense in the future, perhaps we could consider the possibility that Jesus does "smash" pots on an individual basis, when they are a serious threat to his congregation.

As for WHO... well, to me, Jesus explains himself pretty well in that passage you quoted. All who kept Jesus' words to the end would do so - such as the loyal Thyatiran Christians.

(I think Revelation was written in the final year or two of Nero's reign, (around 67AD or 68AD, so the Thyatirans didn't have to endure much longer, because Jesus would return in the clouds around 70AD... in the Jewish understanding of this phrase... so as Paul said, "we the living" who were alive during Paul's time would meet the Lord in the air.)