Just a thought I was pondering:
Those men who are in the Governing Body: Do they really truly believe all the stuff they command, or are they simply a bunch of astute business men who are experts at deception?
Does anyone have any inside knowledge about the "goings-on" in their group?
Melancholymuse,
I believe they are real anointed who have been deceived by Satan.
The man of lawlessness.
The modern day sons of destruction.
The equivalent of Judas Iscariot.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
1 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god†or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?
6 And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.
They have been revealed.
They are presently being brought to nothing by the truth (spirit of his mouth).
Next step ---> manifestation of Jesus Christs presence.
I believe these circumstances measure how close we really are to; "the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him".
In Christ
abe
Hi Melancholymuse
Great question. We here can only guess, but Raymond Franz was one who DID have inside knowledge, and from reading Crisis Of Conscience I got the impression that "presenting a unified front" was most important to the Governing Body... a bit like a political party.
I don't think they are deliberately deceptive... it's just that, with no strong Rutherford-like head, who can change doctrines at will, institutional inertia rules the day... so even dissenting GB members have to tow "the party line".
The commendable exception was Raymond Franz, whose viewpoints didn't win out simply because he was in a minority.
I agree with Interpretum here.
A good way to look at this is to look at the collective spirit. Just as a human being is more than the parts that make them up, so is this the case with any organization. It takes on its own life force in affect that is different from the individual parts. So the individual parts can be very unaware of the collective spirit of the whole just as with an individual human beings parts being unaware of the whole. Another example is with a congregation. Any congregation has its own personality and flavor because of the cumulative affect of many things, most notably the people who make it up. So its often better to not look at individuals in order to analyze an collective spirit but the spirit itself. When the collective spirit is stronger than the individual spirit of its continuant parts, or more specifically a stronger fleshy spirit, because all collective spirits are stronger than the individual spirits, a feed back loop can occur which is normally bad. The two things reinforce one another with certain recognizable signs that this is the case. Lack of freedom is one such symptom. Or more specifically the blocking of the individual spirit over the whole is another, i`e no democratic spirit. The feedback occurs when ideas, opinions, criticisms and objections of the individual are suppressed by the individual themselves cooperating with the collective spirit by choice, conscious or unconscious. This then increases the strengths and domination of the collective spirit of the whole which then proceeds to restrict individual freedom even more creating the feedback affect. This is an unconscious process hard to see unless one looks at the situation in terms of spirits because an organization is in fact alive with its own personality, good or bad. If one looks at the fruits of the flesh and spirit in Galatians, and compares these to an organization as opposed to an individual, as we normally tend to do, it can be a revelation and opens up the organization to a level of analysis more profound or informative then one might suspect. This is why the Jews had Micheal the angel because he represented Israel collectively. They viewed kingdoms and people as having their own angel. This is why Jesus said to be careful how one treats the little ones as their angels always stand before Gods face continually.
As an example look at this following scripture, not on the level or a individual person but as an organization that is a person:
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
Take rivalries for instance. How does the WT as an organization fair in this when it comes to other religions or organizations? Another list of fleshly works is in the following verses:
2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal,
2Ti 3:3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,
2Ti 3:4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.
When one looks at the spirit personality of the WT does it not fit exactly into the above list? It is perhaps a demonic spirit. Look at disloyal. The WT is very disloyal in its personality when dealing with individuals who fall into sin. Take puffed up! Doesn't the WT always congratulate itself on how well its doing? I could go on but its makes the point quite well I think.
Just a few thought I thought might help.
Must watch, imo...
THE CORPORATION [6/23] The Pathology of Commerce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5hEiANG4...=1&index=5
THE CORPORATION [7/23] Monstrous Obligations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vorWknUy...playnext=2
If one accepts position of responsibility in/within a corporation, they assume moral responsibility,...they also become monstrous/bad guys, imo.
:coffeeread:
Indeed ignorance of ones evil doesn't negate Gods judgment. I'm glad its God who judges and not me. All we can do is warn of the dangers and stay away from that which harms.
Just a thought I was pondering:
Those men who are in the Governing Body: Do they really truly believe all the stuff they command, or are they simply a bunch of astute business men who are experts at deception?
Does anyone have any inside knowledge about the "goings-on" in their group?
hi tami, :hibye: this is only my personal opinion, formed by decades of observation. for a long time now, i have felt that by the time one reaches the organizational 'level' of a circuit overseer (and higher, of course), one has to be aware of the organizational deception and agenda in place. i almost want to say the level of elder, but i am still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. so, yes, i do think that -- from the level of circuit overseer on up the chain of command -- they are culpable and co-conspirators in one of the greatest moral and religious atrocities. as i said, only my personal opinion.
as for the knowledge shared by one "in the know" i recall that ray franz discussed the inner workings of the governing body when he was a member. i forget which of his books presented that particular information (i think it was "crisis of conscience") but you should have no trouble tracking it down. :thumbup: i imagine one of our superb archivists (brother bangalore and sis lee) can point us in the right direction. ;)
Don`t we have to be careful about forming these types of moral judgments when it comes to individuals? I don`t question the culpability of any JW of any position. They are, and we were all culpable, ignorant though we may have been. I think the GB and most of all JWs believe what they do and preach. I certainly did when I was one. My uncle was an elder before he died and he was certainly a loving elder even though he believed it all.
Don`t we have to be careful about forming these types of moral judgments when it comes to individuals? I don`t question the culpability of any JW of any position. They are, and we were all culpable, ignorant though we may have been. I think the GB and most of all JWs believe what they do and preach. I certainly did when I was one. My uncle was an elder before he died and he was certainly a loving elder even though he believed it all.
hi brian, :)
i appreciate the fact that you have offered a balancing post. of course you are right. :thumbup:
Don`t we have to be careful about forming these types of moral judgments when it comes to individuals? I don`t question the culpability of any JW of any position. They are, and we were all culpable, ignorant though we may have been. I think the GB and most of all JWs believe what they do and preach. I certainly did when I was one. My uncle was an elder before he died and he was certainly a loving elder even though he believed it all.
Seraphim,
Were all the Jews in Jerusalem in 70ad culpable?
In Christ
abe
Don`t we have to be careful about forming these types of moral judgments when it comes to individuals? I don`t question the culpability of any JW of any position. They are, and we were all culpable, ignorant though we may have been. I think the GB and most of all JWs believe what they do and preach. I certainly did when I was one. My uncle was an elder before he died and he was certainly a loving elder even though he believed it all.
Seraphim,
Were all the Jews in Jerusalem in 70ad culpable?
In Christ
abe
I would think so.
I believe the corruption starts inside the congregations. The process of choosing ministerial servants and elders is very political and much of it is a popularity contest yet we are told it is 'Holy Spirit' doing the anointing--they know better than that-- but it is even more than that.
Years ago I was helping clean the Kingdom Hall in preparation for the circuit overseer's visit. My congregation was going through alot of troubles. ONe of the elders was having big issues wiht his book study and those publishers were in revolt and my own good friend--married to an elder--was being abused by him mentally and emotionally although he didn't see it that way a the time. They were being counciled in an attempt to head off a separation and a divorce. That night --as we were cleaning--our presiding elder took the servants and other elders aside and told them ''when Bro. So-and-so asks if there are any problems in the congregation just say no!'' That was stunning to me as well as to the brother having marital problems as he genuinely was told not to speak to the circuit overseer about his marriage woes and he had wanted to. It was a lie to cover any flaws in the congregation and to protect the reputation of the congregation overseer. I was kind of sick about it but eventually let it go. It also was almost impossible to speak to the circuit overseer alone. Their pat answer was any issues within the congregation were to be handled by the local body and they really didn't have time to council anyone. This protects them from seeing the real face of the congregation they are visiting--so I believe it is a mixed bag. I believe some are true believers and some have fallen prey to their pride and ego's but without a doubt there are many many many who simply know better and yet perpetuate the lie....jmo, of course....
Interpretum says:
I got the impression that "presenting a unified front" was most important to the Governing Body... a bit like a political party.
I don't think they are deliberately deceptive...
2nd Thess. 2:11,12 says that God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in the lie.
Anyone of us could fall into the same trap, the difference being is that we don't carry the weight of an orgainization of several million believers.
My guess is that individually they each made decisions in favour of unity over truth, but the heart is treacherous and often we are blind to underlying motivational forces that are contrary to the image we have of ourselves.
That's why Thess. says that they may all be judged . Jehovah has allowed it for a reason and he is the judge.
'...and if he arrives in the second watch (9pm to midnight), even if in the third... You also, keep ready because at an hour you do not think likely the Son of man is coming Lu.12:38,40
coccus ilicis
As far as I'm concerned, any who actually know the depth of what is actually going on, and accepts it, is part and parcel of the whole twisted system. There are many who don't know , of course, many of those being the rank and file witnesess. There are many fine and decent people in the organization. All those( that means from the least to the highest ranking JW) whose love for an organization is stronger than their love for God and his righteousness will pay the penalty. In the end, we all will individually answer to God, but there will be many proven more guilty than others.:read: I agree with Isomam and Wolfie on this.:thinking:
Grateful :giverose: