Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hello I would like to introduce myself I am currently a JW elder. I have been an elder for 13 yrs. In the last yr. I started to spend large periods of time reading the bible many days hours at a time without the help of the Watchtower publications. I have come to the conclusion that my belief of the New Covenant was wrong. I now believe all who excercise faith in Jesus are part of the New Covenant and therefore should partake at the Memorial. I also believe now to turn in field service time or to sign up as a pioneer is incorrect. Mat. 6:1-4 Also I have come to the conclusion many other things should be left up to the conscience of each christian (blood transfusions, toasts, certain holidays, any forms of sexual relations within the marriage arrangement etc.). Also other teachings should not be taught as solid truth since it is very likely they are wrong (ex. 1914, nameing of faithful discreet slave over all belongings etc.) I have over the last few months drawn very close to God and I now realize I have to do something. I have composed a letter to the rest of the elder body explaining what my new beliefs are on the New Covenant and informing service hours. I have not included my other beliefs in the letter since these 2 things would have to be noticed when I don't turn in my service report and when I partake at the Memorial.

I am a fourth generation JW. A year ago I did not have the slightest inclination that I would find myself in this situation. All my family is in the organization. When I turn in the letter I have no doubt that immediately I will be removed as an Elder and very probably be invited to my own judicial committee. There are only 3 other elders in our cong. besides myself so no doubt they will be the ones serving on the committee. They are good bros. they love Jehovah, however I am afraid the organization doesn't give much leeway on so called apostasy. How can I respond to texts such as 1 Cor. 1:10 and how can I convince them not to disfellowship me and not to apply the Society's harsh guidelines on this matter. Thank you for your replys.

Dak, bro!

Thank you for your post and welcome to the Paradise Cafe.

There will be those who can give you good advice on how to proceed. Take your time and don't rush into this without knowing the choices you have or all the consequences of your decisions.

My brother, Smoldering Wick, was an elder for many years and landed pretty much in the same spot you find yourself in. I tried to phone him but I guess he's not available at the moment. Please hang in there. Many of us here know just what you're going through.

Gogh is another member who could help and isomam, so full of wisdom and who has served in Bethel. It can be tricky, even though those brothers are good souls, they still have guidelines which they will be afraid to go against.

May Yahweh and the lord Jesus bless all your efforts,
Rez

Greetings and welcome dak11

Similar situations, as what you have presented, are being endured by many here, brother.

Your expressions of faith (and concerns) are very much appreciated. Thank you.

I have never written a letter expressing concerns, yet, imo, the outcome resulting from no longer promoting the Org. is the same.....(rejected by family members and friends). There are many like minded, like hearted individuals here that can not only help (but type much better than I, too...grin).

Christian love and appreciation.

gogh

Hi dak! I was an elder for 10 years before they removed me, but I didn't give them any information that would alow then to df me. If you don't want to get df'd for your family's sake, just stop reporting time but keep your feelings to yourself. You owe them nothing! If you must partake at the meeting and not in private, at least they can't df you for that!

hi and welcome, dak11! :welcome: as sis resolute mentioned, i also served as an elder for decades, spent five years at brooklyn bethel, and pioneered for years. i haven't been in a kingdom hall now for a little over five years. i just 'faded.' i empathize with your situation of having all of your family in the watchtower religion (i can't bring myself to call it "the truth" any longer). as e-magine suggested, you may not wish to take any sudden steps if you wish to continue to be able to associate spiritually with your family.

obviously, god and christ have already led you to many important realizations. it almost sounds like you've been reading the answer book for 'the truth about the truth,' as some have said. :D whatever you decide to do about these congregational matters, please pray long and intensely before you take any actual steps. especially weigh prayerfully how you can best serve and assist your family members, even if they do start to treat you like a leper. we both know that true christian love is unconditional, don't we? ;) any questions or anything else you'd like to discuss, don't hesitate to send me a private message anytime. believe me when i say that your 'journey' has just begun.

your friend and brother, ... isomam

dak11

Invite you to watch the video in my signature; "The Unforgivable Sin".

It makes all the other things you have found wrong seem trivial.



In Christ

abe

Hi dak11, and welcome aboard the good ship wilderness. There are a lot of lost sailors and the seas haven’t always been kind—but better that WT waters at present.

Interesting. You sound so much like many of us and what we’ve all gone through. Like e-magine and isomam, I was an elder for decades before resigning for the exact same reasons you contemplate. As so eloquently expressed by isomam, “obviously, god and Christ have already led you to many important realizations.” Therefore, if there’s one piece of advice I can give and you can take at present, don’t rush. As iso said, “whatever you decide to do about these congregational matters, please pray long and intensely before you take any actual steps. especially weigh prayerfully how you can best serve and assist your family members, even if they do start to treat you like a leper.”

The point of this exercise is to be “cautious as serpents and innocent as doves,” “faithful” but “discreet” (something the FDS have been anything but.) Above all, you need to be honest—with yourself and others. The truth of the matter is simple: The devil has done a number on us all and an excellent job of deception by building truth upon truth in order to solidify his lie—and there’s no worse lie than that told as convincingly as truth.

Isomam has generously offered to speak privately and I would encourage you to do so. Whatever you feel comfortable in doing. We’re all available to talk privately or on line. But I am the last to give you advice on writing a letter. I tried. It doesn’t work. In fact, it works against you. If the Governing Body chooses to withhold information, why should we be so naïve to feel we owe them more?

I just returned from the District Convention and I can only say this: there are many conflicted friends, just like your fellow elders. The point is, they are not all able to handle the true truth. In fact the vast majority will remain in denial until it is revealed to them from above as it has to you. I know you want to set matters straight, but it would be both unkind and foolish to martyr yourself to something as inhumane as an organization that considers its survival as of greater importance than those within.

As for the matter of 1 Cor. 1:10. It says, “Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

Think about what Paul is saying. He’s calling for there to be more scriptural reasoning and less conflict over matters that can’t be proven. Rules are for the unruly. So aside from the unscriptural things you’ve discovered, you must also know that any congregation calling itself Christian needs to maintain its Christianity amid other kinds of dissention. Find things you share in common and don’t take issue over the obvious dogma and errors (1914, NC, etc.) You just need time to think. In my case, I didn’t wait for the axe to fall, I made a conscientious break and resigned. And they never bothered me since.

:thumbup:
sw

Thank you all so much for your counsel. It is much appreciated. Also it gives me things to consider before I might do something I'll later regret. I do know things can't continue as they are so sooner or later, probably sooner, I will resign es elder. Disfellowshipping, which I would accept as the price to pay for a clean conscience, would be quite hard since not only my family but all my friends are JWs. I talked to my wife a couple mos. ago about a few of these matters that I thought the Society was wrong about. She became quite upset and said that if I turned apostate she would leave me. So again I thank all especially those who have been in my situation for the advice of taking my time and not doing anything rash

dak11,

Before I made my move I did a lot of research on the Internet and in my Bible.

When it finally came time for a Judicial committee meeting I was able to answer almost all of the Judicial committee questions with one answer; "I want to obey Jesus Christ".

Spend some time thinking about how this end time prophecy might be fulfilled in regard to disfellowshipping:


Isaiah 66:5
Hear the word of Jehovah, YOU men who are trembling at his word: “YOUR brothers that are hating YOU, that are excluding YOU by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!’ He must also appear with rejoicing on YOUR part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”
6 There is a sound of uproar out of the city, a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.


Is there any other religion that excludes their own brothers through the use of God's name Jehovah?


[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.


Here is a Watchtower article quote that was the final straw for me:


w55 7/1 p. 411 Christian Baptism for the New World Society

15 A Christian, therefore, cannot be baptized in the name of the one actually doing the immersing or in the name of any man, nor in the name of any organization, but in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit.


There is plenty of info on baptism posted in this forum which you can find using the search feature.


In Christ

abe

Dak, Words worth repeating. SW says, "But I am the last to give you advice on writing a letter. I tried. It dozen’t work. In fact, it works against you. If the Governing Body chooses to withhold information, why should we be so naïve to feel we owe them more?"
Be patient with your wife. show her little bits of mis information from the WT articles, but say nothing negative about the org for now.

I'm afraid I can't advise you over what to do or not to do concerning the JW's. but I do know a great deal about having to give up a religion and a way of life that defines you and your family.

I was raised an orthodox Jew. I turned to Messiah thirteen years ago.

When one becomes apostate in Judaism, one is viewed as a traitor, siding with the goyim, willing to betray four thousand years of heritage. I have been labelled mentally ill, shunned, threatened (and given a slap or two by one of my uncles)

Since being in cyberspace I have recieved many anonymous e-mails ranting at me for listening to the "soul-stealers" (Christians)

Apostosy is not quite what it is in Islam, but the disdain toward the "lesser" goyim is fairly profound.

I hope very much that you will never have to go through a similar thing. It is very hard to convince peeople who are certain their way is the only way to God that you are chosing a harder route because you love God, not because you wish to rebel.

My prayers and thoughts are with you. I hope that you can find your way to follow Messiah and keep your loved ones.

If the worst does happen, and you are shunned, then please remember that, however hard and unpleasant it may be, there will come a time in the future, when it will simply be a memory of a time that served to make you stronger.

I hope you find this board useful. As you have already discovered, there are many who share or have shared you situation. Smoldering Wick and Isomam are two of the dearest men you will ever hope to meet in any walk of life.

Bless you sir. Shalom.

Hello :hibye: and a warm and heartfelt:happyheart: welcome my brother!:friends:

Isn't it AMAZING what we learn when we start reading and studying God's word:read: and let IT speak to us through prayer :pray: and holy spirit!!:thumbsup:

My hubby and I found ourselves in sort of the same 'crossroads' ... needing to upbuild ourselves spiritually only to find the very things we were taught and sincerely believed and would have died for those very beliefs ... were not truly as scripturally based as we had thought ... :(

You have been given much good advice from some VERY 'SPIRITUAL' 'older men' ... and IMHO I would say to give their words some thoughts and much prayer ... and if possible to take them up on their willingness to talk if that is possible!

I also understand the dilemma of your dear wife ... and the pain that ANY decision that you may make may occur ... but all I can say is that after time you will come to see that IS WORTH IT!!

I too have 'lost' something ... my parents ... in my desire to follow our Lord's words at Matt. 10:32-39 ...

32“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

34“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

35‘I have come to set a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

36Your enemies will be right in your own household!’l

37“If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. 38If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. 39If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

And how poignant those words become in light of our clearer and heart-warming understanding of the New Covenant!!:heartbeat::grouphug:

You know, I have come to view this scripture as not just applying to our 'blood family' but to our 'spiirtual family' as well, as our Lord said that they were his family as well.

One Scripture, a great gift, :present: that was given to me years ago by our sis Rez is Mal.4:6 ...

6His preaching will turn the hearts of fathers to their children, and the hearts of children to their fathers. Otherwise I will come and strike the land with a curse.”

I would think it ok for us to add 'mothers (fathers) and daughters' ... 'husbands and wifes' ... 'brothers and sisters' ... :blush:

Not matter what we may have to 'give up' ... or TEMPORARILY as we reside for a time in the wilderness, it is WORTH IT if we are doing it to remain clean and unhypocritical in the eyes of our God and his Son ... to truly seek to have our worship 'unspottend and undefiled' ... and to serve in 'spirit and truth'!!

My prayers :pray: will surely have you included as you meditate and pray over walking in the footsteps of our Lord and follow his example!

Just as he was DISOWNED ... found UNWORTHY ... LIED against ... JUDGED wronged and ultimately ... lost his LIFE ... he like his apostles after it considered it a JOY to be counted unworthy IN THE EYES OF MEN!!

He wanted his FATHER'S EYES to see who and what he was and why he did what he did ... all the Glory and honor of 'him that sent him!!

May that always be our choice as well, no matter how hard or the consequences that come upon us because of seeking to 'obey God as ruler rather than men'!

Keep the FAITH my brother ... the 'faith in TRUTH' ... never ever closing your eyes to what GOD has said or revealed to you for a 'comfort zone' that isn't going to be 'comfortable' in the end!!

PRAY :pray: PRAY :pray: PRAY :pray: ... and then when you have done that ... PRAY some more!! :pray: :pray: :pray:

For you will need it ...!!

I shed so many tears for 2 years :cry: but all I can say is that they helped to 'clean my soul' ... they were a healing for me ... and worth every bit of water that poured from heart ... for in that healing I came to KNOW and BELIEF and EXPERIENCE the fulfillment of the scripture that we can have 'freedom in CHRIST' ... a freedom that is a beautiful as it is in bringing us closer to him, our Savior and Ransomer, and to our heavenly Father! :friends:

May your reliance and trust in THEM to guide will only bring you more light and more brothers and sisters then you could imagine ... US here for example! ;):P:grouphug:

Christian love to you and yours, BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:

Greetings dear brother Dak11, may you continue in the blessings of the Holy Spirit and the enlightenment you have received through it, along with the love and grace of our Lord and King Jesus.

Dear brother Dak11, you said

I like so many here on the cafe are thrilled to see that you have been led to real truth through the direction of our great God Jehovah and our Lord, King, and Savior Jesus the Christ, who has no doubt poured out holy spirit on you and removed the scales from your eyes.

You will find many here who have gone through the same transition, and have come to realize what "real truth" is. As with all of us who have been Witnesses, we have a particular struggle at coming to this point. This struggle is not of our own making, nor is it from our God, and our King Christ. No, this struggle comes from MEN, who have decided to take Christ's role away from us and become the modern day Pharasees, and relagate Christ to nothing of any value.

I agree with Isomam, Smoldering Wick, and E-magine in the sense that you should not hurry into any decision without thinking seriously of the consequences. And in short, I believe the best avenue is to quietly fade away from the organization without any provication. I believe it was SW that said we do not owe them anything. So, with out damaging your relationship with your wife, family members and friends, you can take leave, and they will pray for you and think that you are going through a bad time, but eventually will come to your "senses", and give you a pass for some time.

On the other hand, if you are questioned as to what is the reason for your change of heart, can you really deny the revealed truth given to you by our Savior? That would be a very hard thing to deal with if you are to be truly faithful to our Lord and King Christ, who said, "he who loves father, mother, sister or brother more than me, is not worthy of me. So, hopefully you will not be challenged in this way. I have yet to be challenged this way, though, my daughter at one point would not speak to me for over 6 months, as she thought I was an apostate. Time and wisdom has overcome that now.

The apostle Paul said, "stop becoming slaves of men", and so that really is where you are right now, you have now come to know that you have been serving men, and it has to stop now. As many have already mentioned, when you take that stand, there may be some immediate harships, but truly, you will be blessed more than you can imagine. For the one who sent the holy spirit to enlighten you will see your good response and will bless you further. But no doubt you will have to be as SW said, "cautious as a serpent and innocent as a dove, faithfull and discreet.

To me, one of the most important things to think about, is not only trying to save your family and friends from this apostate organization, but also making sure we do not contribute to it in any way anymore, and not lead people to it, but out of it, and lead them to our true Savior, Jesus the Christ, our Lord, King, and Savior.

Welcome to true Christian freedom that our King gave to us, and that we here at the Cafe can freely exercise. Please take full advantage of this, and see the warmth and Christian love that abounds here. As Jesus said, "where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there with them also", (no organization needed).

I send you warm christian love my brother, and may the love and peace of our Lord and King Jesus always abide with you, brother Fred

Well put, Fred.

Jeremiah 31:33-34 (The Message) "This is the brand-new covenant that I will make with Israel when the time comes. I will put my law within them—write it on their hearts!—and be their God. And they will be my people. They will no longer go around setting up schools to teach each other about God. They'll know me firsthand, the dull and the bright, the smart and the slow. I'll wipe the slate clean for each of them. I'll forget they ever sinned!" God's Decree.

Baby steps, dak11. Baby steps for your new legs.

:heartbeat:sw