Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi all,
Where do we draw the line in helping others who are skinned and knocked about by our former religious masters?

When do our dealings as former witnesses on XJW forums become like the behaviour of a parasite on its host species?

Does it matter some do not have another life with other Christians?

Derek

Interesting topic.

I know that many here deal with WT topics. We have a whole section on the WT. I tend to not participate too much in WT topics. Why? Just like you said, I don't want to be a parasite. I've moved on. I could care less about the latest WT article of "new light". I think by our actions, we end up giving the WT too much power. Who cares about the WT? I don't. Let the blind lead the blind. Perhaps we should forget about them.

I think that life outside the former JW camp is vital. I've found my place in the body.

Matt

Hi Derek ... :hibye:

Interesting indeed ... :thinking:

I have been sitting here pondering your first question ... :confused:

Where do we draw the line in helping others who are skinned and knocked about by our former religious masters?

I am not quite sure what you are thinking ... but for myself I am not sure I would view a 'line' per say as being what I would want to do for myself ...

To me it would be almost like asking how much love do I show and where do I turn it off ...?:dontknow:

Now I that there does come a point in trying to help someone else where you have to let them make their own choices and come to their own believes etc. for it to remain 'healthy' for ourselves emotionally and mentally ... however, we are not dealing with just 'one' person are we? :dontknow: but MANY ... and some of them posting :post: and some of them just reading and mulling in the background ... :coffeeread:

Kind of like when we went door to door as witnesses, using our time and energy and love of people to speak about the same thing only to different people with different views, feelings, questions etc.

Since I really don't go to other boards ... I cannot speak for many, although the couple I went to in the past seemed to be 'stuck' not in seeking answers or in trying to help others ... but only to criticize and rave and rant abusively without ever coming to an understanding or really listening to what others had to say ... and it most certainly wasn't 'encouraging or up-building' to ANYONE ... including the poster themselves IMHO :(

For me, I tend to view whatever I write as a way to express love to ALL who might read it ... witness, ex-witness, or anyone of any faith or lack thereof ... :heartbeat: to hope that by something that I might say may cause a spark to ignite, or a question to ponder, or a shoulder to lean on whatever someone may need at the time ...

Because of being made in our heavenly Father's image our capacity for love is BOUNDLESS and ENDLESS ... just like his son showed us when he gave up so much for so many@ :happyheart::grouphug:

So, for my brothers and sisters (I don't like to think of them as 'former' ... for in my heart they always 'are') who indeed are 'skinned and knocked about' ... how could I not do all I could in writing whatever I can whenever I can :post: ...?:dontknow:

For as we all know, to do it in person is almost 'futile' for so many, as they, as WE OURSELVES WERE, are conditioned to close their ears and hearts to what 'apostates' have to say ... for they (we) are only out to take away their faith and stumble them away from Jehovah ... :(

However, there ARE some who DO question, in secret, sincerely looking for the WHY on things ... who want REAL ANSWERS ... answers that can be backed by scripture and and using the power of their reasoning ... and it is these ones that we may be able to help but how we conduct ourselves here and what we write about ...

As to not wanting to know what is going on in the 'latest info' and such ... well I kind of understand that reasoning and yet I think it could be a flawed type of thinking to a degree as well ... :giverose:

Why I say that is, because of HOW witnesses believe, that they truly DO 'HAVE THE TRUTH' in their hearts and minds and most certainly are NOT being 'misled' in anyway ... then keeping abreast, but not immersed in what the latest info they may be struggling with to seek to understand, would be good for us to know so that we would be able to give an INFORMED 'answer to anyone who asks us the (a) question' would be a wise thing to do wouldn't it? :dontknow:

Anyway, I rambled on enough ... haven't even had my cuppa coffee yet :coffeeread: so not even sure I made any sense ... so your 'love' will have to once again 'bear all things' toward this rambler ... ;):P:love:

I love all of our heavenly Father's creations ... and for that hopefully I will ever change!! (don't want to sound 'prideful' for I certainly don't want to 'crash'!):shocked::siskiss:

Luv as always, BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi Derek,

I guess we cross the line when we develop a dependency on hating the WS and judging everything we do in relation to their terms of reference. I think what that brings about is a Watchtower manner of being non-Watchtower.

The argument I’ve seen used most to defend this obsessive interest in the negativity of the WS is that some people need more time than others to lay their past to rest and move on. The trouble with this argument is that it often comes from people who have no intention of moving on, because they are comfortable in the familiar, although non-productive world.

I think Jesus would have judged his disciples attachment to their old religious system to be a waste of time and spirit. If they had wanted to keep their new wine in the old skin, Jesus would have advised against it, I’m sure.

Regards,
Brendan.

When did Jesus or his apostles and disciples stop trying to change the religious attitudes of the people they spoke to? And weren't their arguments based on tossing the old and putting on the new?

I guess it depends on how much patience we acquire - for some have definitely had their fill of anything WT and moved on to other religions. Maybe it's an impatient and selfish attitude on their part - or maybe their emotional stamina is not what others can bear. But for some, it still seems important to at least attempt to right, from the very Scriptures all Bible lovers value, the wrong teachings of the WT. How that can be seen as 'parasitic'? A parasite feeds off it's host. We certainly don't draw strength or nourishment from the WT - it doesn't give us much but angst!

I think everyone does what they can do and it all adds up to defending the faith in Christ Jesus, which becomes a new faith that's quite independent of the WT, and yes, perhaps even in strong opposition to it, even though for most of us it was our starting point. But that's just my opinion. Even without the WT to rail against - I'd still be here to rally for Christ and the Scriptures. And that is a definite dettachment from the religious org.!

I would love the forget about the wtbts, and when they cease to exist I will. But until then, how many more sheep held captive to the WT indoctrination need to be reached with the message of hope in Christ only? I still love all the folks I know who are still JWs - they're sincere and love God - so where's that invisible line to be drawn on love?
Whichever comes first - Christ's return or our own physical death - that seems to be the line that's already been drawn.

There's always someone with a bone to pick - you care too much or too little and you can never satisfy what they define as what one should believe, think or do. They're the ones who need to pull the plank and then afterwards tend to the splinter... first things first, imho. :2cents:

Derek,

Very good questions!

This is a forum for Bible research and Christian encouragement.

I personally believe that no limitation should be put on this mandate.

Depends on the true motives of the former witness posting on the forum which, may not always be easily discerned.

I believe that Daniel the Prophet warned about this very thing and so will support the statement with scripture:


Daniel 11:34
But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

If faithful Christians are indeed visiting this forum then I guarantee that some will also post here in an effort to stumble them.

I believe it is a good thing this happens because the end result is righteous; "in order to do a refining work because of them".

I think that XJW forums such as this one does provide another life with other Christians.

Especially if the mandate of Bible research and Christian encouragement is pursued.

As long as an XJW continues to be faithful to Jesus Christ and his commandments then I do not think it matters whether he or she is able to find like minded Christian to associate with.

Jesus Christ will still know who they are.


Amos 9:9
‘For, look! I am commanding, and I will jiggle the house of Israel among all the nations, just as one jiggles the sieve, so that not a pebble falls to the earth. 10 By the sword they will die—all the sinners of my people, those who are saying: “The calamity will not come near or reach as far as us.”’


Malachi 3:2
“But who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears? For he will be like the fire of a refiner and like the lye of laundrymen. 3 And he must sit as a refiner and cleanser of silver and must cleanse the sons of Le´vi; and he must clarify them like gold and like silver, and they will certainly become to Jehovah people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.



In Christ

abe

This topic struck a nerve! Some must have seen themselves in the posts.
And then the negativity shows and the Watchtower terms of reference.

Righting the wrong teaching of others comes up a lot. Surely that’s just an excuse to wallow in Watchtower mud? There is a huge world out there that thinks Jesus is a just a curse word! Why insist on teaching the ones who know a little about Christ when so many know so little. Because it suits, perhaps, for personal more than spiritual reasons.

But nobody is being judged. I know this a prime Watchtower term of reference, but only God has the power to judge. People discuss and assess the reasons behind certain actions but they never judge. That would be wrong! So it might be best to put away the motes and rafters, and discuss the topic.

brendan,

I respectfully disagree with you statement above; "But nobody is being judged"

There is an enormous amount of testimony on this forum by which I believe we will ALL be judged!

Matthew 12:36
I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”

and

Malachi 3:16
At that time those in fear of Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of Jehovah and for those thinking upon his name.

I wholesomely agree with your statement; "but only God has the power to judge" except that the authority has been delegated to Jesus Christ.

I believe that we are presently being judged.


In Christ

abe

so...I'll cut to the chase:

That Silver Haired Daddy Of Mine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSfAdAmMF...re=related

:coffeeread:

"If God would but grant me the power
Just to turn back the pages of Time
I'd give all I own if I could but atone
To that silver haired Daddy of mine"

:coffeeread:

gogh,

Yep, I would do things differently.

Made too many mistakes.


In Christ

abe

Abe, re-read my post, please. I stated that God is the judge. The one who wasn't judging was me - I haven't the power or the inclination!

Do you think that's true of everyone, or most, who posts on the forums, Brendan? And if so, how is it 'wallowing'? Shouldn't a correct doctrine of Christ's teachings at least be attempted? I admit I'm still learning and re-learning - I think I'll be doing it all my life until the last breath!

I did discuss it. My reference to rafters and splinters was about those who do judge when other's should 'get over it' - not to you personally. I've read a lot of commentaries by those people - haters who think anyone who's a JW is stupid. I don't think that - but like myself when I was under the WT influence, I think they're misled. I'm totally against the religion itself, but not the people in it. If that makes me anti-WatchTower, then so be it. But I'm not anti-Jehovah's Witness and I do think there's a difference, don't you?

Love to you, brother:friends:
:peace:

Hi Willa,

No, it is true of some, I think. I just took my lead from the introductory post which mentioned what some XJWs do and why they might do it. I’m sure that there all sorts of XJWs doing all sorts of good works for all sorts of reasons. Trying to correct false teaching has to be a good work too.

I think the intention of this topic is to address the obsessive and figure out where the line is between healthy spiritual intent and going too far. I really do believe that there are some who feed off the negative spiritual energy produced by ‘wallowing’ in these waters. The only fruit of this way of life, as far as I can tell, is neurosis, depression etc, and coming out into the sunshine is the only healthy option.

As for life-long learning, meet your brother, as they say! I didn’t come by these opinions by holy spirit, just by human effort so they are only opinions. And my opinion is that some people overdo the XJW thing. But I don’t judge them. I just say they are wrong, and that I think some retain all that wrathful spirit of the Watchtower that motivates them towards power over their brothers and an obsessive and morbid joy in the thought of mankind and the Christians they disagree with getting punished by God.

As for JWs being stupid, if I said that I would have to insult myself too. No, my point has nothing to do with the time people need to wise up to the Watchtower. Then there is the matter of time needed to readjust and find some kind of new spiritual home, even a booth in the wilderness. But to remain an inbetweenie permanently seems to produce bad fruit and bad mental health.

There is no contradiction in hating the organisation and loving the people in it. I think my experience of life as a JW was different to yours because I met a lot of people whose sense of spirit matched the organisation, and who prospered in a worldly way among the ‘brothers’ by living in both worlds and playing the game for all they were worth! I think if I were to meet a genuine JW, I would care that they got away and found Christ as soon as possible.

Regards,
Brendan.

Brendan, yes I sure am your sister! Your usual economy with words does not do your wisdom justice, bro - because your elaboration on your thoughts about this subject is such a good balanced view! That balance is hard to find, it actually feels like an inner fight sometimes - so insight from those who've gained some is precious and beneficial to everyone. :friends:

I'd like to hear more of that, and fewer tiny snippets - you have lots of good stuff to say!

:peace:

brendan,

You may not have the power to judge people however, you do have the power to judge what they say.

This forum facilitates that power and leads toward arriving at that place where we might one day all speak in agreement.

I believe that your power to judge what people say goes beyond just stating; "you are wrong".

If anything beneficial is to be the result of your judgment then you need to support it with a logical argument, preferably with scriptural support.

That really does depend on your inclination.


In Christ

abe