Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Sorry i am only back for 1 day only so will have to catch up with you next time.

Thank you for your fair comment.
I am still looking into all this most predominantly fractions (which i do not agree with at the moment) To me blood fractions are from blood very tiny parts but still from blood!

As for mercy and not sacrifice used in Matthew 12:7 with regards to jesus and his disciples eating grain. This was jesus telling the pharisees that there view was distorted of the law. People were still allowed to eat on the sabbath which was all they were doing. People still saw to all the animals on the sabbath and made sure they were fed and milked as that would of amounted to animal cruelty as the cows would of been mooing in pain if they were not milked. It was work that they were not allowed to do. But everyday living like looking after babies and having dinner still went on.

The pharisees made gods law harder than it actually was to follow.

With regards to blood and abstaining from it in acts 15:28,29it is such plain clear instruction from the holy spirit and gods word that tryin to explain it away with your(man's) ideas seems to me to be following man's interpretation of the scriptures. Which is what you are saying the GB are doing sometimes. So i am in a dillema, do i follow the clear counsel of the bible or the arguments people use to say that it is ok to have or give a blood transfusion. I Think i will trust in Jehovah/Jesus and the holy spirit with this one. They are far more wiser than all of us are so maybe i will leave it at that.

I want to make this perfectly clear i am against JWs who view the governing body in a cult way and won't look deeper into things but i am not against the governing body.

Who is the faithfull and descreet slave. If the holy spirit is teaching everyone who believes in jesus why do we have differing views? Would we not all be bieng taught the same thing?

I know there is a lot of hate for the governing body! Just as there was in the first century!
Where is there such organisation with regards to teaching please tell me where to look becuase not only is learning on this website confusing but too many comments are snide, sarcastic and not worth replying too. If we are all brothers where is the love and compassion for each other that a few people show. It seems disorganized learning here which shows me that the holy spirit is not backing this way of learning.
This is my view only not the GBs!

If you want a reason why there is a governing body of jehovahs people it is becuase everything we do is modelled on what the bible says! Although we are certainly not perfect we are all submissive to jesus as KING and are trying!

8 The Bible clearly shows that true Christians do not serve God under coercion. It says: “Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.” (2 Corinthians 3:17) But how can this fact be harmonized with the idea of a “faithful and discreet slave” with its Governing Body?—Matthew 24:45-47.
9 To answer this question, we must keep in mind the Scriptural principle of headship. (1 Corinthians 11:3) At Ephesians 5:21-24, Christ is identified as “head of the congregation,” the one to whom it is “in subjection.” The faithful slave class has been appointed to provide God’s people with spiritual “food at the proper time.” In this time of the end, Christ has appointed this slave “over all his belongings.” Its position therefore merits the respect of anyone claiming to be a Christian.
10 The purpose of headship is to preserve unity and ensure that “all things take place decently and by arrangement.” (1 Corinthians 14:40) To achieve this in the first century, a number of anointed Christians from the faithful and discreet slave class were [u]chosen to represent the entire group.[/u] As subsequent events proved, the supervision exercised by this first-century governing body had Jehovah’s approval and blessing. First-century Christians gladly accepted the arrangement. Yes, they actually welcomed and were grateful for the fine results it produced.—Acts 15:1-32.
11 The value of such an arrangement still exists. Presently, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses is composed of 7 anointed Christians, all with decades of Christian experience behind them. They offer spiritual direction to Jehovah’s Witnesses, as did the first-century governing body. (Acts 16:4) Like the early Christians, the Witnesses gladly look to the mature brothers of the Governing Body for Bible-based direction and guidance in matters of worship. Though members of the Governing Body are slaves of Jehovah and of Christ, as are their fellow Christians, the Bible instructs us: “Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”—Hebrews 13:17.


The faithful slave’s heavy responsibilities would obviously involve much decision making. In the early Christian congregation, the apostles and elders in Jerusalem acted in a representative way, making decisions for the entire Christian congregation. (Acts 15:1, 2) The decisions of this first-century governing body were transmitted to the congregations by means of letters and traveling representatives. The early Christians were happy to receive this clear direction, and their willing cooperation with the governing body promoted peace and unity.—Acts 15:22-31; 16:4, 5; Philippians 2:2.

By observing trends, the Governing Body draws attention to the benefits of heeding Bible counsel, offers suggestions about applying Bible laws and principles, warns of hidden dangers, and provides “fellow workers” needed encouragement. It thus discharges its Christian stewardship, helps them to maintain their joy, and builds them up in faith so that they can stand firm.—1 Corinthians 4:1, 2; Titus 1:7-9

Jehovahs people will be organised and all learning the same thing.:read: Sometimes they may get small details wrong and have to change there stance but the basics they get right becuase of Jehovahs backing!
ie:- No Trinity, Preaching Earthwide, Use of Gods Name, Pure Worship (avoiding use of cross, christmas, birthdays). Excepting christ as our means of salvation. Love for Jehovah, Jesus, Brothers and non-believers. :read:Using bible as our guide and not our own interpretation.:readthis: You may say ive been misled but everything i search of my own iniciative lines up where else can i find this? Prove me wrong and i will follow the truth if you can prove it to me conclusively without contradicting the bible.:read:

Warm christian love :grouphug::heartbeat::grouphug:

Trying

MelancholyMuse - Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Here is something to consider:


Acts 15: There is a lot of emphasis on this chapter by churches because it is one of the few instances where top-down control is applied. Be sure to view it spiriturally, and not dogmatically though. This was an Israelite council, a group of people that had a great deal of respect for Law - which they had INCREDIBLE difficulty letting go of. Former Pharisees and Saducees were on that council. The decision to keep 'some' of the Law was a compromise. Everyone was happy because it was meant to do that. But Jesus himself said that he fulfilled the Law.

Later, what is more telling, is Paul's recollection of that event in Galatians 2:

"Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain." verses 1,2

"As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message." verse 6

"James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along." verse 9


Paul was NOT happy with the leadership. He did not even emphasize the letter at all (the compromised Law) - stating that all they wanted him to do was be good to the poor, something he planned on anyway. He had disputes with other Apostles and disciples over this matter. He fought to keep ALL TRACES OF LAW out of the picture.

"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” - verse 21


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Every word in the New Testament is treated as something to emulate. But remember...when Jonah became scared and ran away, that was not something for us to copy...that was a reflection of imperfection. The apostles were imperfect men, period. You saw it when Jesus was around as he constantly had to correct them. They did things that reflected their imperfection, like distributing Law to the congregations when it wasn't necessary.

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As far as being taught in an unorganized way. I get that. It's a bit scary in the wilderness. But note that Noah didn't have a church, yet God still loved him. Yet how many Israelites followed their leaders into a pit?

We have the Bible as our teacher. This forum is like when Jesus or the apostles sat down and had a meal with others to talk about the bible, which was THE fundamental method of witnessing...aside from preaching in public spaces.

If one believes that church or congregregation meetings back then were organized on a routine schedule with a study of any publication other than scripture...then you must admit that is a massive leap of faith. We don't even know if there was group prayer or not, Jesus certainly didn't teach it. We should have heard Paul mention something about the Thursday meeting, vs the Tuesday meeting, or their version of the Service Meeting. But there was nothing like this back then.

Their meetings were about association, building one another up. Not about getting the latest truth from the apostles. There was no 'latest truth' - there was only a handful of items everyone needed to believe, the rest was just love and works of faith. It was radically simple, which is probably why the Israelites couldn't get it for the most part...they wanted all the structure and routine that came with it.

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It is very hard. The church or congregation gives us a nice menu of spiritual food and activities. We don't have to grow it and cook it ourselves. But you have to ask yourself, spiritually, what kind of person does God want us to be?



Philea

I have learned and gained so much more Bible knowledge in the few years on this site, and feel more and more closer to God and His Son, than I ever did in all my 23 years in the society. I live in the 'wilderness' if that's what it is, but certainly don't feel that my spiritual hunger is neglected. On the contrary, I have become so much more interested in learning and gaining even more knowledge.:read: And it is thanks to all those wonderful Christians on this board ( also other boards, but this is the one I frequent the most) who also, through the years, have gained so much more spiritual insight through their own private study of the scriptures, which is helped along, I'm convinced, by God's Holy spirit.:read: I certainly don't feel as though I'm missing out on 'congregating' with like-minded ones,but if I could actually find these Christians ( difficult, as I live in pro Catholic Italy and although I speak Italian well, it is in my own language that I would like to continue studying) I certainly wouldn't keep my distance from them. Being upbuilt spiritually on a face to face basis, can be a strengthening experience. But, I also believe, that being alone with God, and feeling strengthened by him, is an experience all of us should value and cherish, whatever our circumstances. Who knows,maybe one day, all of us will have to contend with being alone ( but not lonely :)) in the 'wilderness'. :thinking::dontknow:
Christian love to all
Grateful :giverose:

And this..

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed." - 1 Tim 4:1-6

This is not to say that Paul here was referring to 'the esteemed' from Galatians, although its possible. . But the point is...Paul was tearing down Law.