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Aid Book and Insight compared, and 1914 &1975

Hi Brendan and others who posted on The Aid to Bible Understanding thread.

This post is a little late but I’ve only just rejoined the café.

When ‘Insight’ was published it was said that it was a replacement for the ‘The Aid to Bible Understanding, The reason given was that the society wanted re-publish this publication in color with more or less the same text.

One ‘less’ part is a missing junk of information and wording change in the Chronology section. I gather that Ray Franz, who did much of the research, found the evidence for date of 607 BCE for Jerusalem’s destruction questionable. Although this is not directly stated in the Aid book there is enough information there for the keen student to start questioning the society’s intransigent stand concerning this date.

I attempted to arrive at the 607 date using scripture only and found I could manage to do so only if I cherry picked scriptures, i.e. using only those verses that gave the desired result and ignoring others.

My understanding is that 537 BCE is a pivotal date from secular sources used as an anchor by the society for counting backwards and forwards. The society then simple added 70 years to arrive at 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem. Unfortunately the same secular source dates the destruction of Jerusalem round 587 BCE, some 20 years later, which of course puts 1914 and the subsequent appointment of the FDS completely out of kilter. No wonder the brothers rejected it out of hand, the credibility of the organization’s claim to appointment was at stake.

If you are interested in dates the following is a teaser. Using 607 BCE as the date when Nebuchadnezzar first attacked Israel, Dan. 1:1; Jer. 25:1-12 and
587 BCE when Jerusalem under Zedekiah was destroyed yields the following.

Using the society’s reckoning of 7 times, but instead of converting it to lunar years let’s convert the 7 times (7 X 360 day lunar years = 2520 yrs) to solar years, 7 X 365=2555yrs. Add this to 607 BCE and we arrive at 1948

At midnight on May 14, 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed a new State of Israel. On that same date, the United States, in the person of President Truman, recognized the provisional Jewish government as de facto authority of the Jewish state (de jure recognition was extended on January 31, 1949).

Do the same sum with 587 BCE (Jerusalem’s destruction) and we arrive at 1968, which was after the six day war, when Jews reclaimed Jerusalem.

Recalling its resolutions 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968 and 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969 and the earlier General Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July 1967, respectively, concerning measures and action by Israel affecting the status of the City of Jerusalem.

I do not claim that these dates have any prophetic significance whatsoever, but they are interesting nonetheless.

1975 also has an interesting outcome. If we accept the brothers counted the years from Adam correctly and if we accept that there may have been a 360 day year prior to the seventh/eighth century BCE, and convert all the years between then and 1975 to a 360 day year.
700 + 1975 = 2675 yrs X 365 = 976,375 / 360 = 2712 yrs (360 day years). Add the difference 2712 – 2675 = 37 yrs. to 1975 + 37yrs and we arrive at 2012

For research on Calender changes the link below it useful.
http://www.bethelcog.org/church/worldwid...w-calender
Using the society’s reckoning of 7 times, but instead of converting it to lunar years let’s convert the 7 times (7 X 360 day lunar years = 2520 yrs) to solar years, 7 X 365=2555yrs. Add this to 607 BCE and we arrive at 1948

To clarify the above, we cannot get an accurate measure of time by superimposing lunar years over solar years. That would be like using a yard stick to measure 5 meters and saying 5 yards is 5 meters. We know that is simply not true. To get an accurate measure we must first convert everything to metric (solar years) or everything to feet and inches (lunar years) before counting.

If this applies then 1914 is simply wrong.
Nice Coccus! I wonder, is 537ce really a pivotal year, and if it is, is that Solar or Lunar?
Re: "...is 537ce really a pivotal year,"...What happened in 537ce EM?

I was wondering about 539 BC being a pivotal year?? ("MENE, MENE, TE´KEL and PARSIN.") What date system did Jews use prior to the arrival of Messiah...( as they were expecting Messiah based on Daniels prophecy, correct?)

:coffeeread:

e-magine Wrote:
Nice Coccus! I wonder, is 537ce really a pivotal year, and if it is, is that Solar or Lunar?


Re 537 BC being a pivotal year, I'm only going by memory, let me do a bit of research and get back to you. It would be a 365 day (solar year) as it is now thought the solar year reckoning applied after the 7th century BC.

Quote:
[I was wondering about 539 BC being a pivotal year?? ("MENE, MENE, TE´KEL and PARSIN.") What date system did Jews use prior to the arrival of Messiah...( as they were expecting Messiah based on Daniels prophecy, correct?)

:coffeeread:

I stand corrected, 539 BC was the pivotol year both secular history and the Bible can agree on as the date of the overthrow of Babylon.

True, Daniel says he discerned from the Jeremiah's prophecy the desolation of Jerusalem for 70 years (Dan 9:1&2), yet Jeremiah(Jer.25) concerns himself with all the land 'all this land must become a devastated/desolate place, an object of astonishment and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years (vs's 1,2 9-11). Notice he does not single our Jerusalem. If Daniel was taken in the first wave of those deported from Jerusalem Dan. 1:1-4 then indeed Jerusalem was desolate and serving the king of Babylon from that time forward.

As to the methods of dating used by the Jews this is highly debatable and one could devote a complete thread on its own to the subject and still not reach a conclusive answer.

I suggest you do your own research. the link given in my article is a useful starting point. Another essay I read on the subject pinpoints 696 BC as the date when most nations changed their dating systems to the solar year. I looked through my stuff but for the life of me couldn't find the article. Velikovsky (a Jew), in his book 'Worlds in Collision' uses a very even-handed approach in discussing the subject (look up the chpt. 'The Year of 360 Days).

As to Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy (Dan (9:24-27) and its application to the timing Jesus' death and the destruction of Jerusalem, I shouldn't think it would be affected by solar or lunar reckoning. The WTBTS simply said 7 times 70 weeks is 490 days and applied the, 'a day for a year' formula. I personally feel the prophecy may yet have a future application, but I have nothing concrete to support this notion.
Thanks for your query, it's a great help.
coccus ilicis

I am glad to see you back.
This post was generated by you.......


http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...php?tid=71


The final allonge is that when Jonah wanted the Ninevites to die, he went and sulked under a gourd tree.

It was a Towlah, or Coccus Ilisis (worm) that ate that tree and the tree died.

The death sentence that was passed on the Ninevites had been removed.

This was symbolised by the Towlah, which removes us from our comfortable position of condemning others. Instead the uncomfortable condition under the full light of day makes us look to ourselves.

As I said, glad you are back.

vicky

man hu Wrote:
I am glad to see you back.
This post was generated by you.......


http://www.paradisecafediscussions.net/s...php?tid=71


The final allonge is that when Jonah wanted the Ninevites to die, he went and sulked under a gourd tree.

Quote:
It was a Towlah, or Coccus Ilisis (worm) that ate that tree and the tree died.

The death sentence that was passed on the Ninevites had been removed.

This was symbolised by the Towlah, which removes us from our comfortable position of condemning others. Instead the uncomfortable condition under the full light of day makes us look to ourselves.

As I said, glad you are back.

vicky


You're close but not quite what I have in mind.
I will send you a private message with a copy of a post that has more clues.
Cheers, coccus illicis

Hi there :hibye: and welcome back :thumbsup: coccus ilicis!

As to your 'name' ... I was thinking along the line of ...

A small European evergreen oak on which the kermes insect (Kermes ilices, formerly Coccus ilicis) feeds.

The insect being describes as ...

The dried bodies of the females of a scale insect (Kermes ilices formerly Coccus ilicis), allied to the cochineal insect, and found on several species of oak near the Mediterranean; also, the dye obtained from them. They are round, about the size of a pea, contain coloring matter analogous to carmine, and are used in dyeing. They were anciently thought to be of a vegetable nature, and were used in medicine.

Now back to topic at hand ... ;)

Isn't it amazing how one can use dates and 'times' (literal or figurative) and come up with more dates!! :P:whistle:

It is enough to make one's head spin isn't it! :shocked::confused:

When I discovered the REAL time of Jerusalem fall was NOT 607 as we had been taught ... but seems to be what secular history has said all along, that of it being in 539 ... all I could say was ... halleluyah that I didn't have to try to figure out and remember the 'formula' of how to reach 1914 any longer!! :cheer::cheer:

Since we are NO SUPPOSED TO KNOW the date ... then why does the society set such store in doing so ... it seem it can only mean that they then can claim to have the 'authority' and 'power' that they have TAKEN and 'begin ruling as kings' as Paul says ... :(

Thank goodness we will know when it is time to know ... and until then we must surely keep awake and on the watch!!

Thanks so much for your research ...

Christian love, BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:
HI bruisedreed, nice to be back.

Quote:
color=#800080]A small European evergreen oak on which the kermes insect (Kermes ilices, formerly Coccus ilicis) feeds.
[/color]

Regards kermes insect, thanks for your research, had to check, but it looks like it's the same thing.

Quote:
When I discovered the REAL time of Jerusalem fall was NOT 607 as we had been taught ... but seems to be what secular history has said all along, that of it being in 539 ...


Babylon was overthrown in 539 BC

Quote:
... then why does the society set such store in doing so ... it seem it can only mean that they then can claim to have the 'authority' and 'power' that they have TAKEN and 'begin ruling as kings' as Paul says ... :(

Precisely my thought, without 1914 the governing body of WTBTS has no claim to appointment.

If you are interested as to why I use coccus ilicis, it has to do with Jonah 4:6,7&10.
Jonah is a quaint little story that seems to be a little out of place in scripture so I asked myself,
1.Why did Jehovah concern himself with Nineveh and why was the account recorded and preserved for our day? After all Nineveh was a pagan city built by Nimrod who had also built Babel (Babylon).
2.Why might Jehovah appoint a bottle-gourd plant to shade Jonah only to destroy it?
3. What might the bottle-gourd plant represent and when was the worm (female towla/coccus ilics) appointed to destroy this 'growth of the night?'
4. Does the account have a deeper meaning or application?

Like those magic pictures that at first are meaningless squiggles then turn into 3 dimensional images with a change in focus, so too Jonah reveals a completely differrent picture with a change in focus. What it reveals is very pertinent for our time.
To change your focus compare how the word shade (tsel, Jon 4:5,6) is used in these scripture, Isa 30:3; Hos 14:7; Ps 91:1; Jdgs 9:14’15; Dan 4:9; note that Babylon/Babel means gate of God in Assyrian; see what towla (coccus ilicis) refers to in:Job 25:6;Isa41:14;Ex16.:20;Isa66:24;Isa14:11;Ps22:6.
Remember to see the 3 dimensional image a change of focus is needed, that means you must see beyond the surface story.

Hello coccus ilicis,

Sorry to be so thick in the head here, but the greater mystery for me anyway is who you were before you came back as coccus ilicis? It's not that I am in dispute of anything. I'm just a little slow on this mystery tour of the "will the original coccus ilicis please stand up and be identified.":dontknow::confused::dontknow:

I guess when that's done I'll get into the 3-D view of Jonah.:thumbsup: Looking forward to your revelations!
:heartbeat:
sw

Quote:
It's not that I am in dispute of anything. I'm just a little slow on this mystery tour of the "will the original coccus ilicis please stand up and be identified."


Hi Smoldering Wick
To find posts by the 'original' coccus ilicis you'd have to go back to this time 2005 when I posted few articles from June through to September.

Quote:
I guess when that's done I'll get into the 3-D view of Jonah.:thumbsup: Looking forward to your revelations!
:heartbeat:

Sorry for being so mysterious. With regard to the 3D view of Jonah I only posted this to stimulate interest and see if anyone else can see a picture beyond the surface squiggles.

Have you ever tried to explain to someone who can't see the 3 D picture under the squiggles how to see the picture? If you have, you will understand the change in focus is not something you can teach or explain.

Did you know that you can rekindle a fire with just a few embers. In the morning you open the flue and add twigs to the few remaining embers left from the night before. They will start to smolder and in time, when they are hot enough, will combust, but you can't hurry the process. Even if you run out of patience and put a match to to them during the smoldering stage the match will be snuffed out. So too with the time we are living in, Lu 12:49-51

coccus ilicis

coccus ilicis Wrote:
Have you ever tried to explain to someone who can't see the 3 D picture under the squiggles how to see the picture? If you have, you will understand the change in focus is not something you can teach or explain.

Did you know that you can rekindle a fire with just a few embers. In the morning you open the flue and add twigs to the few remaining embers left from the night before. They will start to smolder and in time, when they are hot enough, will combust, but you can't hurry the process. Even if you run out of patience and put a match to to them during the smoldering stage the match will be snuffed out. So too with the time we are living in, Lu 12:49-51

coccus ilicis

It's how I learn, coccus ilicis. I smolder until someone adds that which burns in my heart and ignites my constantly cross-referencing mind. It's how I live in conflict and division with family and friend dominated by false shepherds.:thumbup:

thx,
:heartbeat:
sw

Quote:
coccus ilicis wrote:
see what towla (coccus ilicis) refers to in:Job 25:6;Isa41:14;Ex16.:20;Isa66:24;Isa14:11;Ps22:6.
Remember to see the 3 dimensional image a change of focus is needed, that means you must see beyond the surface story.


I thought I saw a pattern emerging, but then I read all your "worm" references... and I guess I need to be told what the heck I'm looking for, lol.
These Scriptures seem to refer to actual worms ---


Exodus 16:19 Moses said to them, "Let no man leave any of it until morning." 20 But they did not listen to Moses, and some left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them. 21 They gathered it morning by morning, every man as much as he should eat; but when the sun grew hot, it would melt. 22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses, 23 then he said to them, "This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning." 24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.

Isaiah 14:9 "Sheol from beneath is excited over you(King of Babylon) to meet you when you come; it arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; it raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10 "They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, you have become like us. 11 'Your pomp and the music of your harps have been brought down to Sheol; maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you and worms are your covering.' 12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

Isaiah 66:23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD. 24 "Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me for their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

---and Jonah 4:6-10---

--- and these seem to be using "worm" symbolically for man/men of lowly/helpless demeanor(?) ---
Psalm 22:4 In You our fathers trusted; they trusted and You delivered them. 5 To You they cried out and were delivered; in You they trusted and were not disappointed. 6 But I am a worm and not a man, a reproach of men and despised by the people. 7 All who see me sneer at me; they separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying, 8 "Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."

Isaiah 41:13 "For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.'
14"Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel;
I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

Job 25:4 "How then can a man be just with God? Or how can he be clean who is born of woman? 5 "If even the moon has no brightness and the stars are not pure in His sight, 6 how much less man, that maggot, and the son of man, that worm!"

:help: I can see those optical illusion 'hidden pictures' usually, but I'm not seeing this picture yet - maybe I need to squint more! Tell me the point, please do! :yes:

(Sorry if this is off your original point of the years! :redface: )

:peace:

Quote:
I thought I saw a pattern emerging, but then I read all your "worm" references... and I guess I need to be told what the heck I'm looking for, lol.
These Scriptures seem to refer to actual worms ---


Hi Willa

Towlah 8438 (f)

Towla (masculine pl.) is translated worms (in manna) at Ex16:20 and crimson or scarlet stuff in numerours places.

Towlah (feminine) is translated as worm, grub, etc and on occasion crimson stuff. It is this female towlah that is often used metaphorically and forms part of my 3D image of Jon 4:7

According to one definition …when the species is ready to give birth to its young, the bug attaches itself to the trunk of a tree so firmly that it never leaves it again… The eggs deposited under the body are protected and the larvae are able to hatch in safety. When the mother dies, her body releases a crimson fluid which stains her body and the surrounding wood. The dead bodies of these bugs were used to make scarlet or crimson dye used in temple service.

So much for the squiggles; changing focus we find that the feminine towlah is used metaphorically to refer to
1.a vine/tree eating worm Deut 28:39; Jon 4:7
2. as devouring the dead Isa 14:1, 4,11 …and he will show mercy to Jacob, and he is yet certain to choose (literally among) Israel… how is the one driving others to work come to a stop…down to shoel your pride has been brought…beneath you maggots are spread and worms/towlah (feminine) are your covering.
3. yielding scarlet stuff Lev 14:4,6 + ; Num 19:6 and others, and a scarlet (towlah) covering for the showbread and drink offering and constant bread Num 4:7,8
4. a symbol of insignificance Isa 41:11,14 …look all those getting heated up against you will be humiliated… do not be afraid you worm (feminine) Jacob, you men of Israel. I myself will help you (feminine) …look I have made you (feminine) a threshing sledge, a new threshing instrument having a double edge. At Job 25:6 … and the son of man (adham) who is a worm (feminine).
Ps 22:1&6… My God, my God, why have you forsaken me (the last words Jesus uttered after they had nailed him to a tree)… But I am a worm (feminine). I understand Man hu has already posted something on this subject.

So we see this insignificant female worm fulfilling very significant roles in Jehovah’s purpose, she is even used to represent men as she fulfills her feminine role.

Does this help, at all? Squinting might help. Ask yourself what usually grows up round a prophet to shelter and shade him and how this growth of the night can replace his reliance on Jehovah as it grows and becomes his primary focus.

I will not attempt to describe the 3D picture Jonah evokes for me, as it reflects my knowledge base, which continues to grow. The picture forming in your mind may well reveal other details just as valid, even as Smolderingwick aptly put it.

It's how I learn, coccus ilicis. I smolder until someone adds that which burns in my heart and ignites my constantly cross-referencing mind.

coccus ilicis

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