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Okay to start off this post I'm going to warn that if you are easily offended or simply to self righteous to listen and step outside of what you already think you know then stop reading now.

In this essay you will find no scriptures, nor references; not because I don't want to research them but because in this post they will not matter. From what I see on this board, many people seem to have fallen back on the bible as a crutch. Lots have turned away from organized religion and decided to rely purely on the bible. The main problem with this kind of thinking, is that none of you can prove where the bible came from. Now I'm not talking about where in history or calling in to question whether or not it was inspired but instead who/what it was inspired by. To Illustrate this point I will use a number of examples from not only the bible. (From historical stand point)
But from things that people already know in every day life.

To start out I'd like to talk about other religions, be them Christian, Pagan, Muslim, Buddhism or what ever one you can think of. They all share a major problem. One problem that some people have already figured out. That is that they are "organized religion" What I want to look at here will apply to all of them. So to be CLEAR I am not attacking "God", "Faith" or "Spirituality". But all of these religions claim to have it right.

But I don't think any of them do. Also I have come to realize that the problem is not the organization of religion but the organization of faith. (In this case I will focus on the Christian beliefs and the bible because this is a Christian discussion board.) What I mean by this is that the bible it self is a way of organizing ones faith. In fact in the long run it is not necessary and useless beyond a certain point.

Here we go now with some examples that illustrates this. In Moses' absence while retrieving the 10 commandments the Israelites made a golden calf. They said to Aaron (and I'm paraphrasing) Let us build a golden calf so that we may bow down to it And an so we can make sacrifices to it. So Aaron thinking he was doing the right thing made one or at least he was talked into it. Now lets look at this story. They were punished for what they did. (More on this later) The thing we need to look at is why? Was it because of there idolatry? Sure. What it because of the fact they were screwing like rabbits. Maybe. Drinking and frolicking about and all the other things they were doing Yes yes and yes. However People tend to not look at what and why they made the calf in the first place. They in fact were not worshiping a false god. likely out of habit due to the fact the Egyptians used SO MANY Statues and Idols to represent their gods they wanted one of there own. Something tangible they could see touch and look upon. They had not yet even gotten the commandment to not worship these sorts of things as moses smashed upon arrival and had to go back. (Strange god did not protect the commandments he wrote with his own hand?) The thing is that the calf was suppose to represent a channel to god. In a way to be close to him have something to hold on to. In fact this is the very same mentality we show the bible today. When we need a book to reaffirm that which we should already feel in our hearts is that not a problem? when we title a book "THE HOLY BIBLE" Is that not making it an idol to? If god did not protect the laws he put literally in stone what is protecting the words in the bible from being twisted of the years? Nothing.

I will however not deny the value of the bibles message. It teaches us many useful things. Like to love one another. Not to steal. Not to Kill. (and for the Scottish not to love sheep. :sheepy: ) Not to mention that Noah was a drunk, and Jesus turn water to wine. Go figure.
let us also look at another great teacher of our time. One who teaches us all of these things. Not to steal to accept each other for who we are. In fact most of the things the bible dose teach. "Barney" Yes the big purple Dino. Quite possibly as annoying as someone knocking on your door to convert you. His message is still clearly a good one. Does the source of this things really matter. I don't think so. According to the example set in the bible nether did Jesus. He used only the world around him and illustrations to teach people telling them to be good people regardless of the old testament in fact he replaced it. Yes Gods son changed god's law.

Jesus did not need a bible... or holy documents. He had old laws and and things from the past but quoting them was NOT what he was remembered for. No it was for the things he did and said on his own that he was remembered for. So as far as I'm concerned The bible should ONLY be a starting point, and only for some as most other "Holy Books" also contain the same positive messages at there core. Which would indicate that it is better to learn from what you have and teach from what you experience.

Next I'd Like to talk about the harmony of the bible itself. People say it is the most harmonious book in the world. I agree it is for the most part. However is lacking in one major place and that is its depiction of god in the old testament they paint him to be a angry, vengeful, child killing, jealous and unforgiving deity. (:rant:) Not that the say that is all he is. In fact he was also very loving as well. The real change comes in the New Testament where he is painted to be a All knowing, loving, forgiving understanding being of companion that tells us if we try we will be saved. If were good at heart in the end his spirit will pour down and let us know truth. :thumbsup: This is fine at first glance however if god is "Perfect" Why did he change his style? If he knew best from the beginning why change for a bunch of imperfect sinners? It really dose not make sense.

The bible is often called spiritual food, and people say that if you open your heart to it and god you will be saved. Isn't that the same reasoning that ensnared Eve in the garden of Eden with the Tree of Good and Evil? Did not the devil say Eat this and you will be like god? How is this any different from us saying read this and you will be saved? Is not the devil said to make himself out like a angel of light? Do we have any way of knowing that we're not being deceived into using books like the bible and others to be Holy or the word of God when that is not the intent originally. Or that it was exactly what was intended, however, not by god?

This brings me to my next point. It is said that the bible is inspired by god. What real proof of this do we have. It sure dose seem inspired though. but who by? This is the devils world so could he not have inspired it himself? Or at least changed it over the years? How do we know that it is real? Is it the feeling we get? Many people "feel" for other faiths as well so that is nothing special on it own. What does this mean? Maybe that the reason they "FEEL" something is not because of the bible but because the are learning to have faith in something. Don't we all want to believe in something? Isn't that the real first step? If it will be put into our hearts in the end. Isn't it enough to be a good person and to be a spiritual one as long as you do believe and are open to truth?

In closing I want to again make clear that in no way am I attacking god. But trying to say that the single most important thing in life when talking about faith and spirituality is that we have it. that we are open and do our best to see and spreed the good that is in the world. WITH or WITHOUT the bible or ANY OTHER HOLY BOOKS. They are the Epicenter of Organized religion. With out the bible and similar documents there would be much less to fight over. Good would still exist without them and so would are belief in god. As soon as this collection of story's went from historical documentation that may or may not be 100% right to a holy book that contains the indisputable word of god they became a problem. The way we treat the book today IS idolatry. The lessons that can be learned can be learned in most places and that we can not prove no matter how hard we try that it was in fact inspired by god and not someone else as the devil can influence as well. the fact the bible follows the same religious format as most other religion means it dose not stand out. It dose not mean god is not out there. I just don't think there is any need for any thing other than the feeling and connection with god that we all carry in our hearts in our own unique and personal way. As soon as we get snared by reasoning on scripture and prophecy on bible and religion it takes away from the time we could spend out in the world doing good and learning about each other. When we do this we are the blind leading the blind. When we treat the bible this way it to becomes a snare and a racket.

Vision
I do agree with you Vision, the Bible has become a crutch for too many a person, whereas for every question, they find a scripture within the Bible. I actually brought this up quite a while back when I first joined the discussion board. In the end it becomes the end all and be all, and people will argue back and forth about the "truth" rather than look within. Jesus didn't use any books. He came as he was and people followed him because in their hearts they knew. Which is why anyone follows any belief structure for the most part.

Bravo Vision for having the courage to come out and show us the way people have perverted the word, if indeed it is of God, into something that has become an earthly idol holding knowledge.
:read:
Howdy Vision

Please consider these scriptures:

Psalm 119:151...

"You are near, O Jehovah, And all your commandments are truth.

Psalm 119:160...

" The substance of your word is truth, And every righteous judicial decision of yours is to time indefinite."

They are music to the ears...:coolmusic:


gogh
How can you use scripture to reply to a post that brings the validity of the scriptures into question? Isn't that circular logic?
Maybe it is a facetious way to question the validity of your questioning of the scriptures? :bubblegum:
As the holy book of the Christians, shouldn't the bible be a guide (like a map) that shows how a Christian is to lead his or her life, interact with others and get closer to God? Guidance by the bible is through the numerous illustrations of Jesus, and the accounts of his ministry. Guidance can also be from the stories of the OT which we can draw morals out of.

The bible shows us how to get closer to God, how to follow Jesus's lead and example and what God wants of us. Using the bible, we learn to view the world and react to it as followers of Christs who aim to please God, we attain a bible-trained conscience by learning what is acceptable and unacceptable to God, and by knowing how to be Christ-like.

So for me, having the bible as a crutch is not an entirely a bad thing. Jesus did not use books but he knew all about the OT, he knew God well and did not need anyone or anything to teach him that. We on the other hand, need all the help we can get! :read:

Salaam, Lou :read::hibye:
John 17:17...

" Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth."

Paradise Cafe Discussions revolve around this scripture.
Hi Vision

First off, I'd like to say, Welcome to the forum! :thumbup:

To a certain extent I'd agree that the Bible can actually be a hinderance at times... a hinderance to developing a personal relationship with God. If we're not careful, we can turn the Bible into a rulebook.

The way I see it is: if we removed the Bible from existence, what would we know about God? God's invisible qualities are seen from creation, but not all people see it the same way. Some see creation and say, "Ah, that proves evolution."

What would we know about our origins? What would we know about our future? What would we know about why we suffer?

The Bible is not a necessity for a relationship with God. After all, Job seemed to do pretty well without it. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob seemed to "scrape through" without it, and even Moses managed to "cope" until he started writing it :read:

However, I personally find it very useful for understanding God.

Still, I'm acutely aware that while (in my opinion) the Bible is inspired by God, God is not confined in or to a book.

That's why it amuses me when people say, "God wouldn't do that, it's not in the Bible".

Errmmm... plaguing a country with ten plagues was not in the Bible... until Moses wrote about it!

God can think outside the box because He is the Box. ;)

Anyway, I'm waffling... thanks for sharing!
I'm not sure but I think you have missed the point completely. How do you know it is gods word. not a clever trick leading you into following certain things for the wrong reason. Not to say there is not good lessons. but to be so sure that EVERY word that the bible says is gods word is seems to be a great way to blindly fall into a trap. I could say I'm god and I'm right. would you believe me. No... I hope. So how can you be sure the bible is not doing just that. Every holy book claims to be some god or another's word that dose no make it true. Why not look for the truth of the world around you and inside of every one before following a 3000 year old book that you have NO way of proving came from god. It could have been made to confuse you just as easy. The point is if you follow your heart and do what you truly BELIEVE is right then if god is what the bible claims he is you will be judged accordingly. Also Interpretum I agree with you to a point but if we got rid of the bible the storys and passing on the knowledge of god in whatever form wouldn't stop. If we all seen things differently but did not question the differences in each other then we would have a unique relationship with god. The point I'm making is you can Absoutley due with out it. Not with out guidance at all. but guidance is every where if you look for it.
Hi vision,

Nice to see some thinking people are coming out to join in a spiritual search.

I like your opening disclaimer, My First question is Do you believe in God? As it is not clear that you do or don’t.. It is clear however that you belief in good and faith.

U wrote
His message is still clearly a good one. Does the source of this things really matter. I don't think so.

Me: okay that’s your opionion.. My opionion I needed to have a set of guidelines and a set that I perceive to have come from the true God. My family background would have produced another problem for this world.. not a blessing for it.. I put little value on man’s opionion due to my upbringing. I am not being disrespectfull.

U wrote
Jesus did not need a bible... or holy documents. He had old laws and and things from the past but quoting them was NOT what he was remembered for.

Me: He was taught and brought up in the synogoge from what I have read. And he was such a scholar of the bible he freely used the scripts to prove his teachings and his prupose.

U wrote
The bible should ONLY be a starting point, and only for some as most other "Holy Books" also contain the same positive messages at there core

Me: I agree other books have merit.. But IF u believe it was God’s guidance for us in this world then it would serve more of a purpose then just a starting point, for me it shows me how to finish successfully.

U wrote
Which would indicate that it is better to learn from what you have and teach from what you experience.

ME: uhh!! No way dude, Without God guidance in my life. My whole family would be in bad shape. Hind sight is 20/20. but a basic guidline of what not to do has made a tremendous impact on my life. I grew up like a wild boy “no rules” and no reason to believe anyone.

U wrote
its depiction of god in the old testament they paint him to be a angry, vengeful, child killing, jealous and unforgiving deity.

ME: yea it seems that way doesn’t it.. I have always thought that. And recently someone else brought that up. And I agreed. I have learned abit since it has taken me 25 years for God to let me understand why.. and I can’t quite put it in words yet.

U wrote
This is fine at first glance however if god is "Perfect" Why did he change his style?
Maybe he didn’t change his style.. maybe he always wanted to just show how loving he is.. Yet the unruly would not listen and had to be stopped. And knowing his own plan to resurrect everyone to judgement putting them to sleep was saving there fellow humans from much trouble.. That is how I see it right now.

U wrote
The bible is often called spiritual food, and people say that if you open your heart to it and god you will be saved

You also say that is is an Idol

Me:Yes depending on how you look at things anything can become and idol. I think for some it may be.. But if u believe it is a guide book from God then it is the last word so to speak. And that apply’s only to my actions in life not my beliefs. For I don’t understand allot of it. So I try my best to not be to dogmatic about it.

Well that’s my take.
Hi Vision,

I read the whole post. First let me suggest possibly breaking up long complex posts in the future, because this post covers multiple topics, and it is hard to take in all at once.

Saying that, I do agree that many Christians use the Bible as a crutch.

Here's the thing: People can make the Bible say whatever they want. They can pull out words and lines to convince people of any number of things, but without knowing the spirit of what is written, they can turn the words into hate speech.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees for searching the scriptures for life. And today we can fall into the same trap by attributing divine power to the book itself, when it is really no more than words on pages handed down over thousands of years. Spirituality is a process, and it can't be contained inside written pages.

Don't get me wrong -- the book itself contains bounds of wisdom, and it can be truly refreshing reading the words of Christ picturing him speaking to us. I wonder though if the apostles ever thought every letter they sent out would later be considered as directly inspired by God, to be canonized in a "bible". Again, I treasure these letters and am so happy we have them, but in the same way, I treasure many of the words of you here -- as both follow very human people in their walk with God.

wots
You have some good points. And I'm not at all that people should not have something in front of them that acts as a guideline for what the should and should not do. But that dose not mean its gods word. It very well be his will or intent and he may agree that dose not mean he said it though. Also I do believe in god but it isn't a black and white. I don't think the bible or any other holy book of any kind has it right because as humans we CAN NOT understand or convey what or who god is. It is very true that there is alot of wisdom but I question the motive of the way it is presented. As people we tend to look into thing too far. Looking for more then what is there. Making what is simple into riddles. I think people need to look at it less as gods word and more as a record of how the generations of the past viewed god. If we do that then we can continue to grow spiritually.
Vision...Wecome....

you said if not for the bible there would not be so much arguing over it....well that might be true...but the bible itself says the condition of men/fallen flesh....so we know the reasons these things are taking place.....BECAUSE OF THE BIBLE.

The bible is a living thing....the bible is proven to be the inspired word of God...written by men under inspiration.....the bible ending was known from the beginning because God knows the end from the beginning...and put his thoughts into the hearts of men to pen to scrolls etc.

I feel bad that you can't look and peer into the word of God himself...speaking to us....what a comfort it is...and because ones disagree and argue does not make it any less Gods word.

There are three things I believe unquestioningly....in God...in Gods Son and in the sayings of God and His Son contained in the Bible....:ok:

Also I would like to add....my dad believed the bible wasn't written by men who were inspired of God.....after hearing that and trying to search for something to say to him and evidence it was written by men under inspiration of God.....helped to make me know even more it indeed was and is.

Take Care
There are those who may spend a lifetime looking through their Bible, and not going out to apply that word. I once had a minister who used to explain scripture for instance by quoting another scripture or even the same one! They spend a lifetime with their nose in the book, instead of looking around in the great world we have been provided. We cannot live by it, we can only remember the lessons and apply them. By going back again and again it can almost seem like an addiction,and no one can truly prove the Bible is the inspired word of God, it has been around for centuries, there has been so much lost in translation and though you should always believe in God and his Son, you cannot go in and prove that the Bible is truly the words of God. There's been too many hands in this pie to be to my liking honestly. :read:

Vision Wrote:
I think people need to look at it less as god's word and more as a record of how the generations of the past viewed god. If we do that then we can continue to grow spiritually.


I agree whole heartedly with this. :read:

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