Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Since so many here appear to be ex JW's (some with a large axe to grind,) I would just like to mention something that is perfectly clear to me.

The major difference between being humble and being humiliated is that one is what you do to yourself and it feels good. The other is done by someone else and it feels awful and there is often a need to "get even".

When you cut yourself off from Jehovah's congregation, (either because you have been stumbled or because you have been disciplined) you cut yourself off from Jehovah. He in turn cuts himself off from you. (1 Chron. 28:9) I know that you have all talked yourselves out of believing that, but it is a fact that I see reinforced by the depth of ill feeling (or outright hatred) expressed by many who were once faithful servants of Jehovah. The identifying mark of a true Christian is LOVE not HATE.
Many have become members of the "evil slave" and keep beating up their former brothers...some with terrible hostility. Why the need to do this? To warn others of the dangers of this "cult"? No, it has more to do with vindicating self and blaming others for what is essentially a refusal to humbly acknowledge the truth.
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

I know many feel that they have suffered injustice...they were wronged by the organization; misunderstood by the judicial committee; badly treated by the congregation....but the plain fact is that the 'perceived injustice' has become a catalyst for retribution and vindication. Neither of these facilitates a reconciliation with Jehovah.

Injustice will occur from time to time among imperfect humans. How we handle that injustice is determined by who we think is the most important person in all of this. Is it us or is it Jehovah?

Paul said that "covetousness is idolatry" and those who "covet" their personal vindication are essentially worshiping self. "Hurtful desire" follows.They put this vindication of self ahead of Jehovah's vindication and want those whom they deem responsible for their situation, to pay. It becomes their focus...a personal vendetta. (Col. 3:5) Who's their father now?

'Birds of a feather flock together' as the saying goes....you can make each other feel better by airing your collective grievances, but the sad fact remains that you not have the 'credentials' even with the great numbers of you who post on 'hate' sites all around the world. You all say such negative things and it is very clear that you are in "no man's land", spiritually speaking. All the whining in the world will not get you out of there.
Remember the occasion when Jesus said some shocking things to his audience and they were so offended that they left in disgust? The apostles were offended too, but they did not abandon him. He asked them if they wanted to go too, since he could see that they were also disgusted at what they heard.
Peter's words echo down through the centuries...“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68, 69) Jehovah has a 'people' today just as he had a 'people' throughout mankind's history. Even in the times of the Patriarchs, he had pockets of his people who were instructing their families in Jehovah's ways.
His 'faithful slave' is still doing that today.

He has told his "people" to get out of Babylon the Great.

It saddens me to see that some have returned there,...not a good place to be found this close to the end.
How do you unlearn the truth? How does the bathed sow return to roll in the mud?

Humility requires us to climb down from our high horse, acknowledge that we just may have been wrong (we get more "right" with the passage of time it seems) and express some humility and seek reinstatement. (Luke 15:17-24) Even if there was a miscarriage of justice, you only punish yourself by abandoning Jehovah. (who is where his spirit is evident)
There is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"...not many. There are no' loners' since we are encouraged to meet together for worship.
There are only two roads and we are on either one or the other. There are only "sheep" and "goats"...we are either one or the other. That is the reality and all the hate-mongering in the world will not alter that.

A humble person cannot be humiliated by anyone. Why? Because a humble person doesn't always believe they are right. When others tell us that something is amiss, or that we are on a wrong course, self examination has to be made without seeking to justify or downplay our actions. It requires honesty...something that a 'treacherous heart' can falsify. Emotion then takes over and common sense goes out the window. We lose sight of what or WHO is really important.

Where is Jehovah's spirit operative today?
I cannot see the blessing of Jehovah anywhere but with those who are the only people on earth to carry out the assignment that Jesus gave his followers just before his return to heaven...that of of "preaching the good news in all the inhabited earth." There is no other global body of Christ's followers, collectively preaching one united message "as a witness to all nations", in existence today....NOT ONE.
Nowhere is the 'love among themselves' more evident than among Jehovah's people, no matter how many 'hate' stories are told. We live it.

So who have you gone away to? You have left "the people for his name" who are faithfully serving their Father down to the end by following the teachings of the Christ as best they can. Do we always do things perfectly? Did the apostles? Does God expect perfection from us?

Realistically we all have choices to make. I have made mine and I hope all here will make their choices based on what Jehovah wants of us in the last moments of this dying system of things. It's crunch time.

I do not want people to respond to this. I am not interested in hearing excuses or horror stories...save them for Jesus; he is the judge.
I am not asking questions except for individuals to answer in their own hearts. I am only trying to prompt some honest self examination.
Time is running out and there is no fence to sit on.

Are we 'sheep' or are we 'goats'? Our choices determine the answer.

Hebrew 13:13
Hence Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Let us, then, go forth to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach he bore, 14 for we do not have here a city that continues, but we are earnestly seeking the one to come.


Luke 21:8
He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.

Do not go after them
Do not go after them
Do not go after them
Do not go after them


Revelation 14:4
These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.


In Christ

abe

Since so many here appear to be ex JW's (some with a large axe to grind,) I would just like to mention something that is perfectly clear to me.

The major difference between being humble and being humiliated is that one is what you do to yourself and it feels good. The other is done by someone else and it feels awful and there is often a need to "get even".

You say Jemima that you don’t want a response to this post:
Words betray as to who you are, let us examine what you are:
According to you we the board members all have our ‘axe to grind’.

When you cut yourself off from Jehovah's congregation, (either because you have been stumbled or because you have been disciplined) you cut yourself off from Jehovah. He in turn cuts himself off from you. (1 Chron. 28:9)

According to you Jehovah is so cold hearted and vindictive that unlike a real daddy he would let his children simmer in their own juices.


I know that you have all talked yourselves out of believing that, but it is a fact that I see reinforced by the depth of ill feeling (or outright hatred) expressed by many who were once faithful servants of Jehovah. The identifying mark of a true Christian is LOVE not HATE.


You say we have talked ourselves out of that leaving the organization equates leaving Almighty God. Even Jesus never made such a cruel remark, though at times he can be cruel indeed in His language.

Many have become members of the "evil slave" and keep beating up their former brothers...some with terrible hostility.
You call us member of the “evil slave”

Why the need to do this? To warn others of the dangers of this "cult"? No, it has more to do with vindicating self and blaming others for what is essentially a refusal to humbly acknowledge the truth.
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

You accuse of us of coming up for excuses for our actions.
You call us hypocrites: “No, it has more to do with vindicating self and blaming others for what is essentially a refusal to humbly acknowledge the truth.”

A few days back I got offended by someone like you and huffed and puffed walking away from the board.

I now know what a safe haven this place is and how vicious and mean the Watchtower training can be as you have just showed your true colors.

Thanks to you Jemima I am back again with my people. You have made me realize what a treasure we have in Paradise café this our association.

And also how much we are saved from person like yourself and talkative. Compared to the loveless lot (the WT) and the kind of person you are a typical member of this board seems like a brother of Christ.

Thank you so much for shaking me out of my self-centered approach in shunning my beloved brothers and sisters of the paradise café.
And by the way you have been prescribing the collective maladies we all suffer here, my advice to you is that why don’t you take your own medicine for a change and see how it feels:clap:

Farhat Zubair

Lets be loving towards Jemima. I don`t agree with her of course. She is wrong on many points and its a shame she doesn't want a response. I remember though a time when I would have done the same as her in the not to distant past. We know why this sister doesn't want a response and it is because of the whole apostate stance the WT has. However she has acted out of love for those she believes are lost and in that respect is going beyond in love in a way most JWs would not permit themselves to do with those they think of as apostates. I feel for her because for her a response would be a compromise of her faith. We all know how this works if we think back. She has already gone beyond what she should have done in the WTs eyes, but that is due to her love. The advice might be floored and we can probably all see holes in the arguments but I think it took courage for her to deal with us at all. If she were to read even this it would probably make her feel defensive or threatened. We have all been there! If we respond to her with anything other than love it will be perceived by her an exoneration of the reasoning she has received by the WT. This is a tactic not of our sister, as she is ignorant of it, but by the WT. It works like this:

Apostates reject the WTs claim on exclusive truth or worse. The spirit of hate and of the world rejects truth, and so hateful angry comments are expected by apostates and are of themselves proof of apostate minds. `Don`t get to close to them or their sickness might infect you.`

Of course this means the WT are protected from those they think of as truth rejectors and liars so that the average JW wont listen to them as the devil is a liar and a truth rejector. So talking to an apostate as they call us is also talking to the devil, or as close to it as its possible to get. It means she wont listen to our side and when we react that reaction is seen as further proof that she is right in what the WT has taught her.

The only way to deal with her is with love and mildness. She is still our sister and we don`t need to react negatively or defensively towards her, even though its painful to suppress our anger in the face of a type of reasoning that has murdered the souls of so many of us in the past, it is not her fault though. Its what she has been given and she doesn't know the truth about it. Lets not fall for the WTs stereotype of the vengeful and angry demon awaiting destruction. We have the spirit of grace and mercy and truth. Truth being the real reason why the WT cannot allow its followers to listen to those who left. We already have Gods love as she does also. Thats not even up for debate and so we can relax. God is not going to pounce on us if we have love for one another. Of course showing love to our enemies is what Jesus taught and what will save us and her. Jemima has done that to us a little bit and more than the WT would allow, but if she did it more she would be compelled to enter into dialog with us. Thats hard for her, but we are not limited in the love we can show her.

Of course its a problem, but remember we were all like her once and no words would have made a difference. How could they when its not based on logic or truth. Love is the only thing that has any hope of penetrating the amour. If we react we reinforce her idealogical stance the WT gave her.

Yes, you are correct about this too....no amount of words from people who were something "other" than a JW can ease the insecurities....there is so much that goes through a persons mind - it is positively daunting!


Its easy for me to forget these things when I am riding on my high horse! :funnyface:


Thanks, bro! :friends::friends::friends:

I do sympathize Beau though with you. My immediate internal reaction was to react. This verse is very wise:

Jas 1:4 But you must let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.

Thanks Brian -- I remember when my grandmother was last here, over from New Zealand about 2 months ago -- she is a JW, auxillary pioneer - and I love her to bits....but she can be a real battle axe with the Watchtower inspired one-liners that come out of her mouth!...in particular during the last visit -- she really let it rip, Organisation this, faithful and discreet slave that, this surely is the truth -- ya know...all that stuff -- but it really got to me this time, as my wife and I were both subjected to a good 2 hours of Organisation worship - and basically told that we were good for nothing and have no hope outside of the Organisation.

Its funny, because it really welled up inside me...for the first time in a long time.....but I did manage to not react or reply - and it bloody hurt alright! - I thought about it - but what good does it do - all you do is strengthen their resolve and prove just how much they are in the right and you are in the wrong....so, its easy to forget the "HOW" when responding to a JW! :funnyface:


So, thanks for the "wake-up and smell the coffee" alert! :thumbsup:


Cheers mate! :friends::friends::friends:

Digital Punk and Seraphim,

You guys are making me look like a Jerk:blush:

And I do feel like one:D


But I needed my re-entry visa into the paradise cafe;) and the stepping stones provided by Jemima were such a bait.

Though in Spirit I agree with both of you, but I do stand my grounds on this one.

Farhat Zubair

Hey Jemima!!:hibye:

How are ya Sister?

Reading your diatribe brings back "fond" memories of what it's like to be under Watchtower mind-control!

It's sad, but totally expected, for you to believe that everything outside the Watchtower is part of Babylon the Great. Unfortunately, one cannot partake of the table of Jehovah and the table of demons. Do you know, that the people who funded (pedophile and Satanist) Chuckie Russell (of the Russell Illuminati crime family) are the same people who founded, among other things, the SKULL AND BONES SECRET SOCIETY.....

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/newworldo...der03.html

.....and are the same people who have been controlling the world's money for at least 500 years, while planning a Satanic New World Order? Did you know that the Watchtower owns half the stock of the largest warfare technology company on earth?

http://www.randytv.com/wtandpolitics.htm

Is it any wonder why the Great Whore got caught in bed with the UN?

Check this out:

SECRETS OF THE WATCHTOWER

Part 1- http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/har...ecrets.htm

Part 2- http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/har...ts_pt2.htm

There's lots more, but I don't have 6 months free at the moment!

Puleeeeez, we don't need old coots with bad breath to save us. God is Love, elders are cold-blooded Nazis. Case closed!

You may not believe this, but WE LOVE YOU!! Get out of the Great Whore while you can!

Now ya got me in the mood for some pancakes! :)

Love and Peace!
Jimmy C.

I know I said it via PM but I'll say it again.

Welcome back.:cheekkiss: You have been missed.

Yep, Brian and Beau (sounds like a good name from a double-act) are being very tolerant bunnies today. I think we should poke them with a big stick until they react a bit more.......:funnyface:

Love you guys

(oh boy, "guys" that sounded like an Americanism. Bad girl Malkah.)

Love you jolly fine splendid chaps then. XXXXXX

Your not a Jerk. LOL Glad your back by the way.

Your reasoning is sound. I hope Jemima can give herself permission to hear. In her mind her life depends on believing and obeying the WT. If she loses she loses big time. Unless she givers herself permission to investigate for herself the facts, she wont listen.

This is what we call a trial. A trial to have our relationship with God called into question and a trial to not react in the face of that trial. What Jesus did in front of the Sanhedrin and then the Roman court says it all really.

Heb 12:2 looking off to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jas 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when you are involved in various trials,
Jas 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
Jas 1:4 But you must let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.

That would be "yous guys", Malkah.:D

BF