Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Salvete!

Dicisne Latinam, mi amici? Una lingua numquam satis est.

Valete,

Matthaeus

In case you're curious, I am wondering if anyone here knows Latin. I am starting to study it a bit. It is likely that no one here does, but I thought I'd give it a try.

Salve Mavos. (note I'm speaking to you personally and not everyone, hehehehe)

My goodness, my Latin is horrifically rusty. I'm sure you'll enjoy studying it though.

Here in Chester (Deva) we have an obsession with all things roman. The men who dress as Roman soldiers to give tours are always heard shouting "Sin, Dex, Sin, Dex" (left right, left right - the latin word for left, sin, has given rise to the english word "sinister" since its connected to the "left hand path" and thus, evil. Wheras we gain the word "dextrerous" from "dex".

Our motto is ANTIQUI COLANT ANTIQUUM DIERUM - the ancients will praise the ancient of days.

I always remember Hinc spes effulget - hence hope shines forth - for some reason.

You'll find its links with English fascinating, you really will.

I'm going to have to go and dig out my latin texts now, you've reminded me what a lovely sounding language it is.

Vale

XXX

Malkah Wrote:

Salve Mavos. (note I'm speaking to you personally and not everyone, hehehehe)

My goodness, my Latin is horrifically rusty. I'm sure you'll enjoy studying it though.

Here in Chester (Deva) we have an obsession with all things roman. The men who dress as Roman soldiers to give tours are always heard shouting "Sin, Dex, Sin, Dex" (left right, left right - the latin word for left, sin, has given rise to the english word "sinister" since its connected to the "left hand path" and thus, evil. Wheras we gain the word "dextrerous" from "dex".

Our motto is ANTIQUI COLANT ANTIQUUM DIERUM - the ancients will praise the ancient of days.

I always remember Hinc spes effulget - hence hope shines forth - for some reason.

You'll find its links with English fascinating, you really will.

I'm going to have to go and dig out my latin texts now, you've reminded me what a lovely sounding language it is.

Vale

XXX

It's such a cool language.

I don't just want to be able to read it, but I want to be able to speak it and think in Latin. I want to be fluent in it. :D

My favorite verses in Latin are first from 2 Chronicles and then from John 18, Jesus and his interaction with Pilate.

"Domine Deus Israhel patris nostri ab aeterno in aeternum tua est Domine magnificentia et potentia et gloria atque victoria et tibi laus cuncta enim quae in caelo sunt et in terra tua sunt tuum Domine regnum et tu es super omnes principes tuae divitiae et tua est gloria tu dominaris omnium in manu tua virtus et potentia in manu tua magnitudo et imperium omnium nunc igitur Deus noster confitemur tibi et laudamus nomen tuum inclitum." - II Paralipomenon XXIX:X-XIII

"Introivit ergo iterum in praetorium Pilatus et vocavit Iesum et dixit, "Ei tu es rex Iudaeorum?" Et respondit Iesus, "A temet ipso hoc dicis an alii tibi dixerunt de me?" Respondit Pilatus, "Numquid ego Iudaeus sum gens tua et pontifices tradiderunt te mihi. Quid fecisti?" Respondit Iesus, "Regnum meum non est de mundo hoc si ex hoc mundo esset regnum meum ministri mei decertarent ut non traderer Iudaeis nunc autem meum regnum non est hinc." Dixit itaque ei Pilatus, "Ergo rex es tu?" Respondit Iesus, "Tu dicis quia rex sum ego ego in hoc natus sum et ad hoc veni in mundum ut testimonium perhibeam veritati omnis qui est ex veritate audit meam vocem." Dicit ei Pilatus, "Quid est veritas?" et cum hoc dixisset iterum exivit ad Iudaeos et dicit eis ego nullam invenio in eo causam." - Iohannes XVIII:XXXIII-XXXVIII

You can also watch/hear this exchange (though it isn't exactly the same) in Latin between Jesus and Pilate and some more Latin between Pilate and his wife in the video below:

Good stuff!

Do you speak any other Languages Mavos?

There was a television series in the early eighties on BBC TV about women in POW camps in the war. I remember the commander (played by the wonderful Burt Kwok) asked one of the multi-lingual women (half british/half chinese) in which language did she dream?

I dream in a mixture of English and Hebrew, but I've never become profficent enough in any other language to dream in it.

I can just about read what you posted but not fluently, I have to think about it the way I have to think about Greek.

Are you self-teaching or attending a course? I had a fantastic classics teacher at uni.

Malkah Wrote:

Do you speak any other Languages Mavos?

There was a television series in the early eighties on BBC TV about women in POW camps in the war. I remember the commander (played by the wonderful Burt Kwok) asked one of the multi-lingual women (half british/half chinese) in which language did she dream?

I dream in a mixture of English and Hebrew, but I've never become profficent enough in any other language to dream in it.

I can just about read what you posted but not fluently, I have to think about it the way I have to think about Greek.

Are you self-teaching or attending a course? I had a fantastic classics teacher at uni.

As regards other languages,

I can hold a basic conversation in Spanish. Pero, necesito mas practica.

As regards Latin:

Well I checked out the local university and they do offer Latin courses, and have a full Classics program, but they are all during the day and I work during the day. They don't offer night courses. So I am going to have to attempt to do it on my own. I bought the text book, "Wheelock's Latin", and plan on going through that. I would have preferred the classroom. I'd love to get my 3 year BA in Classics, but I can't just stop working for three years either. :crybaby:

Matt

Mavos Wrote:

Well I checked out the local university and they do offer Latin courses, and have a full Classics program, but they are all during the day and I work during the day. They don't offer night courses. So I am going to have to attempt to do it on my own. I bought the text book, "Wheelock's Latin", and plan on going through that. I would have preferred the classroom. I'd love to get my 3 year BA in Classics, but I can't just stop working for three years either. :crybaby:

Matt

Matt, If you go to the Well Trained Minds Boards, they have a forum for high school & adult studies. They would be able to recommend on line lessons/audio/video instruction for all the classic studies.
Blithe

Is botanical Latin real Latin? For instance, I just transplanted some Juglans nigra, stachys byzantina and mentha spicata into pots to hopefully sell at a garage sale. :D

:peace:

Willa Wrote:

Is botanical Latin real Latin? For instance, I just transplanted some Juglans nigra, stachys byzantina and mentha spicata into pots to hopefully sell at a garage sale. :D

:peace:

Yes, botanical latin is real latin, its usually a description. I don't know the Latin names for things, but, for example, I can work out that Juglans nigra must be black walnut or something similar. Nigra is "black" and Juglans, if I remember properly, is derived from "Jupiter's acorn" - i.e, a nut fit for a God.

Mavos, if you're determined and motivated there's no reason why you can't teach yourself Latin. My advice would be make certain you have access to audio texts of some sort, hearing a language is absolutely essential. I know someone who self-taught themselves Hebrew, he could write it pretty well, but when he spoke, it really was unintelligable because no amount of being told how one pronounces certain sounds really matches hearing it spoken.

But go for it. After all, even if it takes years, those years are going to pass whether you learn it or not, so you might as well be a latin scholar by the time you're thirty-four, because you're going to be thirty-four in ten years anyway.......(that's my reasoning when I'm lining up to do a marathon too, "these three-and-a-half hours are going to pass whether I run or not, so I might as well have a nice shiny medal as not...")

Malkah Wrote:

Willa Wrote:

Is botanical Latin real Latin? For instance, I just transplanted some Juglans nigra, stachys byzantina and mentha spicata into pots to hopefully sell at a garage sale. :D

:peace:

Yes, botanical latin is real latin, its usually a description. I don't know the Latin names for things, but, for example, I can work out that Juglans nigra must be black walnut or something similar. Nigra is "black" and Juglans, if I remember properly, is derived from "Jupiter's acorn" - i.e, a nut fit for a God.

Mavos, if you're determined and motivated there's no reason why you can't teach yourself Latin. My advice would be make certain you have access to audio texts of some sort, hearing a language is absolutely essential. I know someone who self-taught themselves Hebrew, he could write it pretty well, but when he spoke, it really was unintelligable because no amount of being told how one pronounces certain sounds really matches hearing it spoken.

But go for it. After all, even if it takes years, those years are going to pass whether you learn it or not, so you might as well be a latin scholar by the time you're thirty-four, because you're going to be thirty-four in ten years anyway.......(that's my reasoning when I'm lining up to do a marathon too, "these three-and-a-half hours are going to pass whether I run or not, so I might as well have a nice shiny medal as not...")

Thanks for that encouragement.

I also have a question you may be able to answer.

How good of a translation is the Vulgate? Seeing that there are many similarities between Latin and Greek, and the ancients were adept at translating between the two, I'm thinking it must be pretty good. I think that how good of a translation it is can be shown by the fact that most translators and textual critics will use it as a source alongside the actual Greek text. I can see why Latin would be a much better language to render the Greek in than English. English really has no inflections anymore, whereas Latin and Greek are both very inflectional.

The example I can think of, with my limited knowledge of both languages is John 1:1...

In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum

En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos

I looks to me that Deum would be accusative and Deus nomative. The same would be in Greek. Theon is accusative, theos is nominative. This doesn't really show or translate into English, but it does in Latin. I actually have a copy of the Vulgate at home and I am really looking forward to reading it. That's why I really hope it is a good translation.

What do you think Malkah?

Matt

Mavos Wrote:

Malkah Wrote:

Willa Wrote:

Is botanical Latin real Latin? For instance, I just transplanted some Juglans nigra, stachys byzantina and mentha spicata into pots to hopefully sell at a garage sale. :D

:peace:

Yes, botanical latin is real latin, its usually a description. I don't know the Latin names for things, but, for example, I can work out that Juglans nigra must be black walnut or something similar. Nigra is "black" and Juglans, if I remember properly, is derived from "Jupiter's acorn" - i.e, a nut fit for a God.

Mavos, if you're determined and motivated there's no reason why you can't teach yourself Latin. My advice would be make certain you have access to audio texts of some sort, hearing a language is absolutely essential. I know someone who self-taught themselves Hebrew, he could write it pretty well, but when he spoke, it really was unintelligable because no amount of being told how one pronounces certain sounds really matches hearing it spoken.

But go for it. After all, even if it takes years, those years are going to pass whether you learn it or not, so you might as well be a latin scholar by the time you're thirty-four, because you're going to be thirty-four in ten years anyway.......(that's my reasoning when I'm lining up to do a marathon too, "these three-and-a-half hours are going to pass whether I run or not, so I might as well have a nice shiny medal as not...")

Thanks for that encouragement.

I also have a question you may be able to answer.

How good of a translation is the Vulgate? Seeing that there are many similarities between Latin and Greek, and the ancients were adept at translating between the two, I'm thinking it must be pretty good. I think that how good of a translation it is can be shown by the fact that most translators and textual critics will use it as a source alongside the actual Greek text. I can see why Latin would be a much better language to render the Greek in than English. English really has no inflections anymore, whereas Latin and Greek are both very inflectional.

The example I can think of, with my limited knowledge of both languages is John 1:1...

In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum

En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos

I looks to me that Deum would be accusative and Deus nomative. The same would be in Greek. Theon is accusative, theos is nominative. This doesn't really show or translate into English, but it does in Latin. I actually have a copy of the Vulgate at home and I am really looking forward to reading it. That's why I really hope it is a good translation.

What do you think Malkah?

Matt

Mavos - that's not a question that can be answered in less than about ten thousand words.

The vulgate is absolutely unique, Jereome had a monumemtal task on his hands. I think the vulgate is credited as the first to translate directly from the Hebrew rather than the septuagint. It was translated from the best manuscripts available at the time (We have texts today that Jerome didn't have, but we don't actually know just how many resources he hade that have now been lost to us) but, like any translation, it has its critics and critictisms. (try Desiderius Erasmus) From a histrorical viewpoint there's nothing else like it - and it directly inluenced the Lindisfarne gospels and Wycliffe amongst others.

But whether or not its a good translation is partially subjective, but its stood the test of time - also, which edition do you have, for interest? its been updated many, many times. My Latin is nowhere near good enough just to sit and read it, but its handy for study. (As you read it you'll spot lots of words that have been brought almost directly into the English language, its like Shakespeare in the influence its had on modern English.)

Structually, yes, Latin is closer to Greek than English. In Latin, every noun belongs to one of five declensions that have six cases, - nominative, vocative, genitive, dative, accusative and ablative. (sp?)

So take Deus. It can be nominative as a subject of a sentence (Deus, which corresponds to the Greek Theos), or in the accusative as a direct object (Deum, which corresponds to the Greek Theon) or in the genitive(Dei) dative(Deo) ablative(Deo) as an indirect object, or the vocative (Deus) to indicate the person/thing being addressed. Like you point out, all of this is lost in English.

I would definately agree that its easier to translate Greek to Latin accurately (I actually find English better for Hebrew because its less word-specific) but I've never studied the Vulgate in depth. I know the place it has in the history of the church, and I can't not respect it for that.

Malkah Wrote:

Mavos Wrote:

Malkah Wrote:

Willa Wrote:

Is botanical Latin real Latin? For instance, I just transplanted some Juglans nigra, stachys byzantina and mentha spicata into pots to hopefully sell at a garage sale. :D

:peace:

Yes, botanical latin is real latin, its usually a description. I don't know the Latin names for things, but, for example, I can work out that Juglans nigra must be black walnut or something similar. Nigra is "black" and Juglans, if I remember properly, is derived from "Jupiter's acorn" - i.e, a nut fit for a God.

Mavos, if you're determined and motivated there's no reason why you can't teach yourself Latin. My advice would be make certain you have access to audio texts of some sort, hearing a language is absolutely essential. I know someone who self-taught themselves Hebrew, he could write it pretty well, but when he spoke, it really was unintelligable because no amount of being told how one pronounces certain sounds really matches hearing it spoken.

But go for it. After all, even if it takes years, those years are going to pass whether you learn it or not, so you might as well be a latin scholar by the time you're thirty-four, because you're going to be thirty-four in ten years anyway.......(that's my reasoning when I'm lining up to do a marathon too, "these three-and-a-half hours are going to pass whether I run or not, so I might as well have a nice shiny medal as not...")

Thanks for that encouragement.

I also have a question you may be able to answer.

How good of a translation is the Vulgate? Seeing that there are many similarities between Latin and Greek, and the ancients were adept at translating between the two, I'm thinking it must be pretty good. I think that how good of a translation it is can be shown by the fact that most translators and textual critics will use it as a source alongside the actual Greek text. I can see why Latin would be a much better language to render the Greek in than English. English really has no inflections anymore, whereas Latin and Greek are both very inflectional.

The example I can think of, with my limited knowledge of both languages is John 1:1...

In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum

En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos

I looks to me that Deum would be accusative and Deus nomative. The same would be in Greek. Theon is accusative, theos is nominative. This doesn't really show or translate into English, but it does in Latin. I actually have a copy of the Vulgate at home and I am really looking forward to reading it. That's why I really hope it is a good translation.

What do you think Malkah?

Matt

Mavos - that's not a question that can be answered in less than about ten thousand words.

The vulgate is absolutely unique, Jereome had a monumemtal task on his hands. I think the vulgate is credited as the first to translate directly from the Hebrew rather than the septuagint. It was translated from the best manuscripts available at the time (We have texts today that Jerome didn't have, but we don't actually know just how many resources he hade that have now been lost to us) but, like any translation, it has its critics and critictisms. (try Desiderius Erasmus) From a histrorical viewpoint there's nothing else like it - and it directly inluenced the Lindisfarne gospels and Wycliffe amongst others.

But whether or not its a good translation is partially subjective, but its stood the test of time - also, which edition do you have, for interest? its been updated many, many times. My Latin is nowhere near good enough just to sit and read it, but its handy for study. (As you read it you'll spot lots of words that have been brought almost directly into the English language, its like Shakespeare in the influence its had on modern English.)

Structually, yes, Latin is closer to Greek than English. In Latin, every noun belongs to one of five declensions that have six cases, - nominative, vocative, genitive, dative, accusative and ablative. (sp?)

So take Deus. It can be nominative as a subject of a sentence (Deus, which corresponds to the Greek Theos), or in the accusative as a direct object (Deum, which corresponds to the Greek Theon) or in the genitive(Dei) dative(Deo) ablative(Deo) as an indirect object, or the vocative (Deus) to indicate the person/thing being addressed. Like you point out, all of this is lost in English.

I would definately agree that its easier to translate Greek to Latin accurately (I actually find English better for Hebrew because its less word-specific) but I've never studied the Vulgate in depth. I know the place it has in the history of the church, and I can't not respect it for that.

I have the Stuttgart Vulgate (Biblia Sacra iuxta vulgatam versionem). It is a critical attempt to restore the Vulgate to its original Latin text. It comes with a complete critical apparatus showing variant readings from the most important Latin manuscripts. This version attempts to reconstruct the experience of reading a medieval manuscript, so the spelling is medieval, which can be a problem for anyone used to the Clementina, and to anyone looking up words in a dictionary. The text also lacks punctuation: no commas, colons, periods, question marks, or quotation marks; this actually is not a major problem in Latin, which is so rich in conjunctions. The text is well cross referenced, and the typeface is modern and easy to read.

http://www.amazon.com/Biblia-Sacra-Vulga...=pd_cp_b_1

Mavos Wrote:

I have the Stuttgart Vulgate (Biblia Sacra iuxta vulgatam versionem). It is a critical attempt to restore the Vulgate to its original Latin text. It comes with a complete critical apparatus showing variant readings from the most important Latin manuscripts. This version attempts to reconstruct the experience of reading a medieval manuscript, so the spelling is medieval, which can be a problem for anyone used to the Clementina, and to anyone looking up words in a dictionary. The text also lacks punctuation: no commas, colons, periods, question marks, or quotation marks; this actually is not a major problem in Latin, which is so rich in conjunctions. The text is well cross referenced, and the typeface is modern and easy to read.

http://www.amazon.com/Biblia-Sacra-Vulga...=pd_cp_b_1

Yep, that's the one I've got. I think its by far the most widely used. It contains the prologues too doesn't it? I haven't read it for ages though. Its one of those books that gives me a little tingle of delight when I open it, I don't know why. I love books. I've got a complete dead sea scrolls that I enjoy too, and a seventeenth century bible that I can barely lift.

I still prefer a proper book to a computer.