Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Nope. :hug::friends:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Romans 3:19 NKJV)

Also, consider the fact that Jesus says that hatred of someone else is committing murder in your heart. There is no one alive who has not hated someone else at some point in their life. Therefore, all are guilty.

The verses I showed earlier also are clear: We are all guilty. Else, why would we need a savior?

Amen!

Matt

Hi Matt,
Yep, its glib.

This happened two days ago down the coast, not far from our home!

I wrote this on another site:
This is too close to home.. and it has ruined peoples tranquility and spoiled for them a place of relative peace.

Our friends here in our small village saw the solicitor, who was killed, last week about a legal matter. He was a good fishing friend of my wife's, friend's, brother.

The guy started by killing his twin brother and then the family solicitor, then work colleagues...he then shot at random; someone cutting a hedge, riding a bike.. even a young estate agent in a car driving along...he shot most in the face with a shot gun at close range after calling them across to his car. He apparently had money worries and it is said the family Will, unhinged him.


He was a member of a shooting club and had a license for a shotgun and a hunting rifle...he had both weapons with him.
The police in the UK do not carry guns...... Hand guns are banned in the UK and only c. 1 in 100 people have a gun license...there are more up here because it is a farming community and sadly there is lot of hunting of wild creatures.

There is no response one can really make other than empathy for the families and friends concerned and hope the injured make a full recovery.

Are we all as blood guilty as the Cumbrian killer?

Balance, Matt...use your brain.

Derek - I've been following this story and thinking of you. This sort of thing still shocks and numbs us all.

When we sin in any shape or form, our blood shall be upon our own head. God will require our blood of us. So bare minimum and common to all people everywhere, our blood shall be upon our own head. Our blood shall be required of us. In that sense, we are very blood guilty. For some, like the Cumbrian killer, not only will they have their own blood required of them, but also the blood of others shall be required of them and be on their head. I never meant to say that everyone is like the Cumbrian killer, just that in some sense, we are all blood guilty.

Jesus, who being innocent and without sin, decided to become blood-guilty in our place. Our blood was required of him. How awesome is that?!

Matt

Hi Matt,
I am afraid I do not live in a two tone monochromatic universe! :)

Luke 12:47...

"That servant who knew what his master wanted but didn't prepare himself or do what was wanted will receive a severe beating.
But the servant who did things that deserved a beating without knowing it will receive a light beating...."

:coffeeread:

Yeah, indeed gogh! I was just trying to point out that there is a beating either way.

Matt

Dear All

First of all what does it mean to be blodguilty, in accordance to what comes forth in the Scriptures, when it is a question of physical injury. Lets have a look at Deuteronomy chapter 22 verse 8

8 When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

When it comes to situations where a person is passive and due to that sombody dies, then we can also end up in a situation of blodguilt, in the eyes of Jehovah as describe in Ezekiel chapter 3 versus 18 to 21:

18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

It can be seen here, that we can end up in a situation of blodguilt if somebody dies, even that we do not are directly responsible but also indirectly due to our acts, like with Judas but also in question of a group or nation in Jehovahs eyes.

There has not to be scredded any physical blood to end up in a situation of bloodguilt, sice a kriminal that kill the victim with poison doesn't scred any physical blood, but will anyway be bloodguilty.

In Matthew chapter 27 verse 4 and 5 we find Judas, who indirectly was the reason for that inocent blood was pured out, he anyway ended up to be blodguilty:

4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].

5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

When we look at Paul in Acts chapter 18 verse 6, it comes forth that they rejected his message and therefore said that their blod should come upon their own heads, was it physical blood, no beu a reason for that somebody die:

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook [his] raiment, and said unto them, Your blood [be] upon your own heads; I [am] clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

It comes furthermore forward in Acts chapter 20 versus 25 and 26 that Paul he spread the Gospel and also was clean of blood, simply because he have tried to warn and save them.

25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men].

Above few passages in the Scriptures indicate clearly for me that we can end up in being blodguilty, if we build a physical or religious house without a parapet and somebody dies a premature death, E.g as the Catholic Church and The Watchotower Society have done, where their doctrines of men directly or indirectly have sent 10th thousands and other thousands persons into a premature death.

It can also happen in a situation where we are aware of that there is a physical or Scriptual danger and we don't warn people that can be hurt and suffer later on, whether it is directly as indirectly and thats why Paul he declares himsef free for anybodys blood.

Regarding Paul, somebody will maybe then reply that he was indirectly guilty for Stephens and many of the first Christians got killed by the Authorities.

Here we have to remeber that he got baptized and through this, hís former sins was forgiven him and hereafter he continue to follow Jesus Christ and preaching warnings and a lifegiving Gospel.

When it comes to and wheter a person is blodguilty, e.g the Jews killing of the prophets and Jesus Christ and the Germans they are as individuals not bloodguilty, even when we look at their heritage and if, they have in any case all a possibility to flie and repent, like Paul and all others of us, by so to speak get our sins reset, due to Jesus Christ blood.

So when it comes to newborn or childen in general, will they carry at bloodguilt as a heritage or because of their father or mothers wrongdoings.

No not at all since we have the principle in the law that a son or daughter shall not carry the responsibility for a father or mothers wrongdoings.

Indirectly they can suffer from leak of financial assets and food etc, but in the eyes of Jehovah and the Society they are not and can't be responsible for others wrongdoings in juridical sense.

In question of attending a religious or political Church or Organisation that carry at bloodguilt, what about this.

It is clear for me that when we become members and support them with our time and finacial assets, we will put ourselves in a risky situation against Jehovah, since we are suppporting something that He dislike and we will show by our attitude, that we accept what they have committed and stands for indirectly, wheter it is in the past or now, where persons have been sent into a premature death.

It doesn't matter, whether it has been in the past or in present time, we indicate clearly that we accept what they stands for by our association, which both Jehova and His son Jesus Christ hates.

How does that come. It is very simply to explain when it comes to join the nationalsocialist party or not, which policy during the Hitler Germany was responsible for that approximate 55 million people was sent into a premature death.

This organisation carry at bloodguilt and by become a member we send signals that we accept what have happend and we will be responsible against Jehovah, since we doesn't follow His sons directives and what about the Society, even here we will be utterly seen, but when it comes to Churches and religious organisations, people can't se that it is exactly the same situation, but it doen't sounds negative in the same manner as being a member of the Nationalsocialist party, even that there is no difference in the eyes of Jehovah.

It is therefore my sincerely hope that we all can se now and understand what I mean by joining a political or religious organisation that carry at bloodgulilt, we simply hang Jesus Christ again at the Cross and there will be no more sacrifice or mediator valid for us, to be able geting into a god relation with God.

In question of our position to Jehovah and His son Jesus Christ, what do we have for an obligation as individuals, when we are members of and belong to a Church or Organisation that carry at bloodguilt.

We have the same obligation as the Jews to flie out and in proper time make a clear distinct distance, so we don't become a part of them and this world, where they are associated to and get full use of.

Therefore we are warned by James in chapter 4 verse 4;

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

In 2 Chorinthians chapter 6 verse 17 and 18 we are further warned if we like to be sons and daughters to Jehovah:

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

At last we also have warnings in Revelations chapter 6 verse 10 and chapter 20 verse 4, where it comes forth what will happen with those who are responsible and parttakers with those men or organisations that are bloodguilty and responsible for killing of peolpe, which means being bloodguilty:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

We as humans can understand this as said ealier, when it comes to be a menber of the Nationalsocialist Party but when it comes to be a member of any Church or organisation that also carry at bloodguilt, then we lower our guards, since it has a shine of Jehovah or Jesus Christ but are rejecting theirs commandments and force as described in 2 Thimothy chapter 3 verse 5:

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The question to all of us is, do we like to be in company with Jesus Christ, if yes, then we have a responsibility to turn away from bloodguilty Churches and Organisations, whether they are political or religious?

It is quite clear that it is a personal responsibility, but I accordance to my best knowledge in the Scriptures, I have maked my position clear, I reject to have any company with any of them and their acts, which doesn't mean that we hall avoid their members, which we have a responsibility against as Christians, in the same manner as Jesus he did and show of examples.

This was my two cents ;)

Ps. Jesus Christ was not bloodguilty, this is a pure fantacy and nonsense and he could not be responsible for his own dead as a Jew, like the Jews, unless ones will make him bloodguilty due to the killings of the Prophets in fomer times and anyway he show us how to get rid of any sin, by getting bapticed and what it means.

Talkactive,

There does indeed seem to be some past and future blood guilt that will be avenged in the future.


Revelation 6
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.


Seems that the sentiment being sold or justified in this thread is that it might be ok to continue associating with a church or organization that has been blood guilty in the past.


Revelation 18
24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”


So could there be some innocent persons suffer repercussions simply due to their associations?


The voice that said this seems to think so:


Revelation 18
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues





In Christ

abe

Once again the Society's interpretations rears it's ugly head.

Where abe does Babylon the Great mean Christendom?

Yannis,

Babylon the Great is responsible for the death of Holy Ones.

If you want to make Babylon the Great be anything you want then go ahead.

It might be a good idea to make Babylon the Great mean something convenient to your own circumstance.

Or, maybe not.


In Christ

abe

Dear Yannis

It seems obviously that you do not like to understand, that it is a question of being responsible for that persons have or are going to be sent into a premature death.

Let me ask you a question do you think it is Ok with the inquisition, like and when the Nazis gased the Jews. I belive that there is no difference in question of bloodguilt in Jahwehs eyes.

It is exactly the same in Jehovahs eyes, with any organisation if they are responsible for that anybody die, they will be bloodguilty.

It has nothing to do with the individuals, since they can flee and disassociate and show clearly that they do not any longer wanna associate with this world and what it stands for but very clear follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ as individuals.

If you like to associate, its your choise, I can only speak for myself, that I don't like to associate with any organisation that carry at blodguilt, in the eyes of Jehovah and Jesus Christ.

You seems to be mentally hurt from your time within The Watchtower
Society, where you now se everthing to be Ok, even that the Scriptures tells us that we can't be a part of this world, if we like to go in the footsteps of Jesus Christ.

Maybe there is a possibility for getting the Catholic Church and political organisations baptized and approved by Jahweh as organisations. You show us :help:

You seems not to be willing to understand, that we do an active act, when we join and become members, give them our support, time and assets and will therefore associate and give our accept for, what they stand for and have done with all their members, icons and idolatry to be a member of UN :shocked:

I expect that you also will have the curtesy to answer my questions in the other thread.

Do you belive the body of Christ is any man made organisation or Church :help:

Well since the Bible is not explicit on the indentity of Babylon the Great then that means that my guess is just as good as yours doesnt it?

However, if we are on the subject of death of holy ones than that included Jerusalem and Rome at the time of John's writing the Book of Revelation now didnt it?

That is why some scholars feel that Babylon the Great was either Jerusalem or Rome under Nero.

Dear Talkactive, as i told you many times, Jesus' parable of the weeds and wheat will show you the way.

But by all means though follow your conscience and stay away from fine fellowship with members of the Body of Christ that are found in Christian Churches if you like. That is your perogative.

Dear Yannis and All others :hibye:

I can assure you that I know a lot of fine, loving, gentle and honest people, whether they belong to a political or religious organisation or not.

Jesus Christ was a Jew and was living in the Jewish system and he shows us that we could go to whoever we like to spread the Gospel to, which means in privacy and in public forums and among other religious groups, but that doesn't mean that we shall become members and suppport them with our time, assets and their man created doctrines, does it?

As I also have tried to tell you, none of us owns the right to judge anybody, but we have a personal responsibility to se whether the fruits conforms to what Jesus Christ he meant or not.

I believe therefore that we have a responsibility to keep us unspottet of the world, without beeing able to go out of the world.

This means for me that we can't join political or religious organisations that carry at much bloodguilt, since we by our associaten send clear signals, that we accept what they stands for and have committed.
So to speak give them our blueprint.

The big question is, can we join a political party, directly or indirectly through any organisation, whether it is political or humanitair and still be active and in good standing condition, as Christians?

What signals do we like to send to our naighbours and not to forget Jehovah and His son Jesus Christ and can we belong to the body of Christ with one leg in each camp?

It is of course personal questions each other has to deal with, but I believe that the Scriptures are very clear on this and it doesn't therefore make any difference, whether Babylon the Great are meant to be in former or newer times. (the inquisition wasn't so long ago, was it?) the message is very clear in the Scriptures, that we can't eat of Gods and demons tables at the same time and this means also that we have to do our best to get unspottet of this world, even that we are unperfect and make many mistakes and can't leave it :cry:

It is our positive acts that "jugde" or label us, which is to become active members of organisations, whether they are political or religious, it doesn't matter, since and when we do it liberally, it is worser than and when we by unawarenes commit anything that isn't in harmony with and what Jehovah and Jesus Christ likes to se from us, based at the principles of love in our non perfect situation.

So a human has a possibillity to repent, e.g like David, which is the result of Jehovahs and Jesus Christs grace, mercy and offer, not any Church or Organisation that has or are carrying at bloodguilt, which we join and like to asssociate with :help:

Maybe you mean also that it is Ok to be political active, by joining a Christian Political Party or a Church, that associates with and get full use of this world and then, just before Jesus Christ returns disassociate and hope that it will be sufficient?

Maybe you have been granted with a mental and spiritual awakeness that keeps you awake 24 hours a day, so the "thief" doesn't surprice you.

I have unfortunately not but will still try to be awake and make dicissions in the reality, which means that I try my best not to make any decission liberally, that will or have connection to this world, even that I sin every day, maybe not always in acts but everyday, at least in words.

So let us hope that the weeds and wheat will show us the way before it is too late, which in Scriptual sence means here and now, by looking at and compare their fruits as Jesus Christ mentioned, from and within the organisations we liberally join and like to be associated with :Help:

Are we really on your guard and can see what many Churches and Organisations stands for and do we have Pauls warning in mind, when you look at them and like to be members and associate, as stated in 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 5:

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Jahwehs opponent are also transforming himself to an Angel of light, why it can be difficult to see the differences :help: