06-03-2010, 09:26 AM
Dear AnjaAndreas
May I kindly recommend you to take a deep breathe :giverose:
I will try, in a last attempt to explain for you, that I read the Scriptures and understand it this way:
It is like a King or Emperor which has a person he trust, as His right hand, I belive that God also have such a one today; Jesus Christ sitting at His right hand (as his right hand, so to speak) and are following his commandments and decissions, since he is obedient and who He also have chosen as His Judge.
I would like to se a King or an Emporer that wil send his own litteral right arm, or that the Scriptures will give us such an illustration of the relation between God and Jesus Christ :eat:
May I kindly encourage you, to forget The Watchtower Society as soon as you hear somerthing that conforms to what they teach or have maked of doctrines, e.g when a King say it is forbidden to steal, then I observe, that you immediately states that it is a Watchtower doctrine or teachings :help:
Ps. May I kindly ask, is there some background for that you are double posting, in every thread you post :thinking:
May I kindly recommend you to take a deep breathe :giverose:
I will try, in a last attempt to explain for you, that I read the Scriptures and understand it this way:
It is like a King or Emperor which has a person he trust, as His right hand, I belive that God also have such a one today; Jesus Christ sitting at His right hand (as his right hand, so to speak) and are following his commandments and decissions, since he is obedient and who He also have chosen as His Judge.
I would like to se a King or an Emporer that wil send his own litteral right arm, or that the Scriptures will give us such an illustration of the relation between God and Jesus Christ :eat:
May I kindly encourage you, to forget The Watchtower Society as soon as you hear somerthing that conforms to what they teach or have maked of doctrines, e.g when a King say it is forbidden to steal, then I observe, that you immediately states that it is a Watchtower doctrine or teachings :help:
Ps. May I kindly ask, is there some background for that you are double posting, in every thread you post :thinking:
anjaandreas Wrote:
He talkactive you say : I agree with you, that Satan is real and not only in the mind of God.
But why then do you not believe in the Right arm of YHVH ?
John 12:38
YHVH his right arm is real for we did see it,s flesh , and not just a supposed strength of work as the watchtower did teach you.:blush::confused:
But why then do you not believe in the Right arm of YHVH ?
John 12:38
YHVH his right arm is real for we did see it,s flesh , and not just a supposed strength of work as the watchtower did teach you.:blush::confused:
Lost thread Wrote:
Posted by anjaandreas - Today 11:11 AM
Well i believe that the one who is talking to Abraham is one of the three men ,they are sitting and eating and drinking before Abraham.
Then all 3 of them are standing up ,but one is still standing before Abraham as the other 2 wend down to Sodom,and now Abraham is standing before one of the three angels as he called up on him the name YHVH ?
The angel did not correct Abraham for doing so as we see the angel did with John in Revelation , why not ?
For it says in Gen 18:
1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby.
When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them AND BOW LOW TO THE GROUND .
3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my Lord, do not pass your servant by.
4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.
5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant."
"Very well," they answered, "do as you say."
Let,s read the scripture what Abraham is saying in furder on in Gen18:22,33.
22: The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD (YHVH).
33:When the LORD(YHVH) had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Abraham did understand who is talking to him ,and i understand to whom Abraham is talking .(John 1:18)
It is the I,Am ,
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AMâ€; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ â€
15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
And Jesus did say it is his name :
"Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one". (John17;11)
And now I can understand why Yeshua says in John 8:56
“Your father Abraham was glad that he should see My day, and he saw it and did rejoice.â€
57 The jews, therefore, said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?â€
58 Yeshua said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, " I am.â€
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Yeshua was hidden and went out of the Set-apart Place, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Anja says: as it say in the scripture “for us there is one Elohim(יהוה), the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master( יהושע ) Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live.†(1Cor8:6)
Compare this to Mal 2:10 and Eph 4:5,6
Posted by anjaandreas - Today 10:58 AM
Talkactive Wrote:
Dear Ozymandias
First of all I like to thank you for a sober and very nice presentation, with evidence of the Biblical meaning of Logos.
May I kindly ask you, in hope that you would like develop and describe the background for, what you believe and have come to this conclusion... a joining of the two:
Quote:
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
At the same time I agree with you, that Satan is real and not only in the mind of God, Jesus Christ and us Humans, where one of my references is, what comes fort in Ezekiel chapter 28 versus 13 to 15:
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ozymandias Wrote:
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
He talkactive you say : I agree with you, that Satan is real and not only in the mind of God.
But why then do you not believe in the Right arm of YHVH ?
John 12:38
YHVH his right arm is real for we did see it,s flesh , and not just a supposed strength of work as the watchtower did teach you.
Posted by Talkactive - Today 10:03 AM
Dear Ozymandias
First of all I like to thank you for a sober and very nice presentation, with evidence of the Biblical meaning of Logos.
May I kindly ask you, in hope that you would like develop and describe the background for, what you believe and have come to this conclusion... a joining of the two:
Quote:
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
At the same time I agree with you, that Satan and Jesus are real stand alone deities, like the sons of God as described in Genesis 6:1-4, not only in the mind of God, where it was Satan that tempted Eve and also Jesus Christ and continue to do it aginst us Humans, where one of my references is, what comes fort in Ezekiel chapter 28 versus 13 to 15:
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ozymandias Wrote:
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
Posted by isomam - Yesterday 10:25 AM
Ozymandias Wrote:
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
hi ozy thanks for your reply.
"labels and mental associations only obscure truth" -- i couldn't agree more.
"facts are facts" -- once again, i agree; however, often it is in the perception and/or interpretation of facts that things can get confusing. for example, as gogh previously quoted john 17:5, i will merely reiterate what it says here:
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (niv)
the fact of what the verse says is clear. yet, is it possible that you and i have different perceptions as to what it means?
i truly appreciate the respectful tone in which your presentations are made.
iso...
Posted by gogh - Yesterday 03:50 AM
Hi Oz
Thanks for responding, you state your position/belief regarding our Lords glory yet our Lord makes a statement regarding place...
"What if you saw the Son of Man going up to the place where he was before?"
How does your concept of "impersonal personification" explain Jesus' reference to location/place?
thanks,
gogh
Posted by Ozymandias - Yesterday 03:43 AM
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
Posted by isomam - Yesterday 02:54 AM
hi ozy, my brother,
since much of what you are presenting as your beliefs/teachings parallels (more or less) the beliefs of christadelphians, i am just wondering if that is your particular belief system.
do you believe that the devil, whom the bible names as satan, actually tempted jesus at the end of his forty-day sojourn in the wilderness? do you believe satan the devil is an actual spirit person who set himself in opposition to the sovereign creator?
i'm only trying to get a better feel for what it is you are proposing. nothing more, nothing less.
if you choose to answer, thanks in advance.
your friend and brother in christ, ... isomam
ps: this little blurb from wiki summarizes some of the basic teachings of christadelphians. please comment, if you wish.
Christadelphians state that their beliefs[84] are based wholly on the Bible,[85] and they accept no other texts as inspired by God.[86] They believe that God is the creator of all things and the father of true believers,[87] that he is a separate being from his son, Jesus Christ,[88][89] and that the Holy Spirit is the power of God used in creation and for salvation.[90] They also believe that the phrase Holy Spirit sometimes refers to God's character/mind, depending on the context in which the phrase appears,[91] but reject the orthodox Christian view that we need strength, guidance and power from the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life, believing instead that the spirit a believer needs within themselves is the mind/character of God, which is developed in a believer by their reading of the Bible and trying to live by what it says during the events of their lives which God uses to help shape their character.
Christadelphian Hall in Bath, United KingdomChristadelphians believe that Jesus is the promised Jewish Messiah, in whom the prophecies and promises of the Old Testament find their fulfilment.[89][92][93] They believe he is the Son of Man, in that he inherited sinful human nature from his mother, and the Son of God by virtue of his miraculous conception by the power of God.[89][92][94] Although he was tempted, Jesus committed no sin, and was therefore a perfect representative sacrifice to bring salvation to sinful humankind.[89][92][94] They believe that God raised Jesus from death and gave him immortality, and he ascended to Heaven, God's dwelling place.[92] Christadelphians believe that he will return to the earth in person to set up the Kingdom of God in fulfilment of the promises made to Abraham and David.[95][96] This includes the belief that the coming Kingdom will be the restoration of God's first Kingdom of Israel, which was under David and Solomon.[97][98][99] For Christadelphians, this is the focal point of the gospel taught by Jesus and the apostles.
Christadelphians believe that people are separated from God because of their sins, but can be reconciled to him by becoming disciples of Jesus Christ.[100][101] This is by belief in correct doctrine, through repentance, and through baptism by total immersion in water.[101][102] They do not believe we can be sure of being saved believing instead that salvation comes as a result of a life of obedience to the commands of Christ [103] After death, believers are in a state of non-existence, knowing nothing until the Resurrection at the return of Christ.[104] Following the judgement at that time, the accepted receive the gift of immortality, and live with Christ on a restored Earth, assisting him to establish the Kingdom of God and to rule over the mortal population for a thousand years (the Millennium).[105] Christadelphians believe that the Kingdom will be centred upon Israel, but Jesus Christ will also reign over all the other nations on the earth.[106] Some believe that the Kingdom itself is not worldwide but limited to the land of Israel promised to Abraham and ruled over in the past by David, with a worldwide empire.[107]
Christadelphians reject a number of doctrines held by many other Christians, notably the immortality of the soul, trinitarianism,[88][91] the pre-existence of Christ,[89][91] the baptism of infants,[102] the personhood of the Holy Spirit[88][89][90][91] and the present-day possession of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.[90][91][92] They believe that the word devil is a reference to sin and human nature in opposition to God while the word satan is merely a reference to an adversary (be it good or bad). According to Christadelphians, these terms are used in reference to specific political systems or individuals in opposition or conflict. Hell is understood to refer to death and the grave, rather than being a place of eternal torment.[94][108] Christadelphians do not believe that anyone can go to Heaven. Instead, they believe that only Christ Jesus went to Heaven, and when Christ Jesus comes back to the earth the true believers will live in the Land of Israel which will be the Kingdom of God on Earth. Christadelphians believe the doctrines they reject were introduced into Christendom after the 1st century,[109] and cannot be demonstrated from the Bible.[88][89][91]
Marriage and family life are important.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians
Posted by Ozymandias - Yesterday 02:19 AM
Gogh I commented on that verse in the other thread, we will both agree Jesus wasn't glorifyed before he was born literally, he was after and for the joy set before him he endured a torture stake etc, he had glory with the Father before the world was in as the lamb slain before the founding of the world and plan and purpose of God,God before through the prophets prophesied About him and the glory he would have, we as believers are also spoken of as having glory with God before the founding of the world, read my response in the other thread.
as far as impersonal personification I'm talking about personification how did the Jews understand wisdom? As a person or as a personification of Gods wisdom, you can't read a Jewish document through gentile lenses, the Jews were Gods people yes they got some things wrong however they were set apart from the nations with Gods truth, if something in the old testament contradicts an understanding that the pagans had during those times, and later they come along and say the Jews were wrong does that mean the pagans were right? That's fishy to me , the Jews awaited their messiah born from not through the line of David if you all want to see actual evidence concerning every verse you can concieve go to
http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk
Posted by isomam - Yesterday 01:47 AM
"...of verse 14 may well be that it marks ... the transition from impersonal personification to actual person."
"impersonal personification." now there's a dandy oxymoron if i ever heard one.
Posted by gogh - Yesterday 12:16 AM
Greetings and howdy Ozy
If I am understanding you as you would intend to be understood....I have ? re:
"...of verse 14 may well be that it marks . . . the transition from impersonal personification to actual person."
How could impersonal personification have glory; such as our Lord did before becoming the human Jesus?
John 6:62...
"What if you saw the Son of Man going up to the place where he was before?
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
But there are some among you who do not believe."
John 17:5...
"So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed."
Christian love,
gogh
Posted by Ozymandias - 06-01-2010 10:54 PM
What is Meant by “The Word was God�
If John says that the logos was...
pros ton theos
...meaning that the logos was with God (by which he confirms that the logos was not literally the person of God, Who in this passage is obviously the Father) and then goes on to say that...
theos en ton logos
...the logos was divine, we cannot interpret “theos en ton logos†as a literal reference to God Himself without presenting Christianity with (a) two separate Gods, or (B) Modalism (an ancient heresy which taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same person.) We must therefore understand that “theos en ton logos†is a purely qualitative statement - it refers to the fact that the logos (being the reason, purpose and plan of God) was divine.
Even Trinitarians will agree with the fact that “the logos was divine†is a proper translation of the text, because they read John 1:1 as “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God the Son, and God the Son was with God the Father.†So we are perfectly justified in reading “theos en ton logos†as “the logos was divine.â€
This form of language is by no means unique to the classical world. Even today, we speak of “a religious ethic†or “A godly man†or “a divine ideal†or “the divine hierarchy†(as in the case of I Corinthians 11:1-3.) In the same way, we make mention of “secular philosophyâ€, “contemporary thoughtâ€, “atheistic reasoningâ€, "a nihilistic conceptâ€, or “the antiquarian mind.†These are qualitative statements; they refer to the source and disposition of abstract ideas - not to literal entities.
With this understood, we can now see that the Original New Testament (published 1985) gives a clear reading of the passage in question, without resorting to theological bias:
In the Beginning was the Word.
And the Word was with God.
So the Word was divine.
It was in the Beginning with God.
By it everything had being.
And without it nothing had being ...
In his own New Testament translation, William Barclay (a former professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University) makes the following note:
Logos has two meanings, which no one English word can express. Logos means word, and Logos means mind. A word is the expression of thought. Therefore Jesus is the expression of the thought of God. Or to take the other meaning, in Jesus we see the mind of God.
[...]
In Jesus the mind of God becomes a person.
Again, in his Gospel of John, Barclay writes:
In Greek logos means two things: it means 'word' and it means 'reason.'
[...]
The Logos of God, the mind of God, is responsible for the majestic order of the world.
[...]
He (John) said to the Greeks, "All your lives you have been fascinated by this great, guiding, controlling mind of God. The mind of God has come to earth in the man Jesus. Look at him and you will see what the mind and thought of God are like.
[...]
By calling Jesus the logos, John said two things about Jesus:
(a) Jesus is the creating power of God come to men. He does not only speak the word of knowledge; he is the word of power. He did not come so much to say things to us, as to do things for us.
(b) Jesus is the incarnate mind of God. We might well translate John's words, 'The mind of God became a man'. A word is always 'the expression of a thought' and Jesus is the perfect expression of God's thoughts for men.
A Paraphrase of John 1:1-18
In the beginning, there was a pattern for everything.
The pattern was God’s; the pattern was divine.
The pattern was God’s from the beginning.
Everything that exists, came from that pattern. There is nothing that exists now, which did not first exist in the mind of God.
The pattern is both the source of new life and the meaning of life.
It is a way of life in opposition to death, and death cannot overcome it.
God sent a man named John to tell people about this new way of life so that everybody would trust the agent of God, through whom new life would come.
John was not this agent, but he taught people how to recognise the one who was.
The agent of new life was coming into the world.
To some people, however, this new life is unrecognisable.
Some who could be expected to embrace this new life, select death instead.
Others embrace the new life. They trust what God has to offer; and He accepts them as His children.
God made this offer to His entire creation. Its source is heavenly, not earthly.
God is not only the source, but also the meaning of life itself.
God’s divine pattern was embodied in a man who lived among us.
No man has seen God literally – but they have seen His only-begotten Son Jesus – the agent of new life, and the representative of God.
There is no argument for the deity of Christ here. Indeed, such a concept would serve no purpose in the context of John's prologue.
Posted by Ozymandias - 06-01-2010 10:51 PM
Is the Logos of John 1 a "He" or an "It"?
A Review of Protestant Bibles Before the KJV:
The Geneva Bible – 1560
In the beginning was the Worde, and the Worde was with God and that Worde was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by , & without it was made nothing that was made.
Tyndale’s Bible – 1525
In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God: and God was that Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing: that made it.
Tyndale’s New Testament – 1530
In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God.
All thinges were made by it, and with out it, was made nothinge, that was made.
Matthew’s Bible – 1537
Used it instead of "him" in John 1:3-4.
Coverdale’s Bible – 1539 & 1540
In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was ye worde. The same was in the begynnynge with God.
All thinges were made by the same, and without the same was made nothinge that was made.
The Great Bibleof 1539
Used it instead of him in John 1:3-4.
The Bishop’s Bible – 1568
Used it instead of him in John 1:3-4.
There is no justification for seeing the logos as a "he" instead of an "it." The sheer consistency of the OT and NT militates against such a proposal.
One can easily get in too deep when a debate effectively says my experts are better than yours and then go on to besmirch the character of Tyndale.
This can easily be avoided I discovered by letting virtually all the versions speak the truth for themselves!
Phrase autos ho logos in the Greek
logos("saying") is rendered neuter ("it") in these following versions
Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? DR
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? KJV
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" NKJ
Many therefore of his disciples, when the heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? ASV
Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" RSV
After hearing it, many of his followers said, "This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?" JB
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "this is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" NIV
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?†ESV
Then many of his disciples, when they heard these things, said, “This is a difficult saying! Who can understand it?†NET
The saying here of course is the word(logos) of Jesus
The masculine word logos is here rendered neuter.
John’s Prologue – Jewish Language; Jewish Concepts
Patristic theology of whatever school abused these texts by taking them out of context and giving them a meaning which John never intended. Functional language about the Son and the Spirit being sent into the world by the Father was transposed into that of eternal and internal relationships between Persons in the Godhead and words like "generation" and "procession" made into technical terms, which New Testament usage simply will not substantiate… John is a typical representative of the New Testament, not the anomalous exception, with one foot in the world of Greek philosophy, that he is so often presented.
Robinson, J.A.T. (1984), Twelve More New Testament Studies.
Dr Robinson was a former Bishop of the Anglican Church in Woolwich during the 1960s
The opening sentences of John's Gospel, which might sound like the philosophy of Philo, could be understood by an educated Jew or Christian without any reference to Philo. Therefore we should not argue from Philo's meaning of "word" as a hypostasis that John also meant by "word" a pre-existing personality. In the remainder of the Gospel and in I John, "word" is never to be understood in a personal sense...
It means rather the "revelation" of God which had earlier been given to Israel (10:35), had come to the Jews in Holy Scripture (5:38) and which had been entrusted to Jesus and committed by him to his disciples (8:55; 12:48; 17:6; 8, 14, 17; 1 John 1:1) and which would now be preserved by them (1 John 1:10; 2:5, 14.)
The slightly personifying way in which the word is spoken of as into the world (1:9-14) is typical of the personifying style of the Old Testament references to the word (Isa. 55:11; Psa. 107:20; 147:15. cp. 2 Thess. 3:1.) It cannot be proved that the author of the prologue thought of the word as a real person. Only the historical Jesus and not the original word is said to be the Son (John 1:14, 18.) But in this Son there dwelt and worked the eternal revelation of God.
Wendt, Hans (1907), System der Christlichen Lehre.
Dr Wendt was a former Professor of Systematic Theology at the University of Jena in Germany.
John’s Prologue – Pre-existence in the Jewish Mind
That any expression or vehicle of God's will for the world, His saving counsel and purpose, was present in His mind, or His 'Word' from the beginning is a natural way of saying that it is not fortuitous, but the due unfolding and expression of God’s own being. This attribution of pre-existence indicates religious importance of the highest order.
Rabbinic theology speaks of the Law, of God's throne of glory, of Israel and of other important objects of faith, as things which had been created by God, and were already present with Him, before the creation of the world. The same is also true of the Messiah. It is said that his name was present with God in heaven beforehand, that it was created before the world, and that it is eternal.
But the reference here is not to genuine pre-existence in the strict and literal sense. This is clear from the fact that Israel is included among these pre-existent entities. This does not mean that either the nation Israel or its ancestor existed long ago in heaven, but that the community Israel, the people of God, had been from all eternity in the mind of God, as a factor in His purpose.
Mowinckel, S. (1954), He Who Cometh.
The importance of setting these texts within the historical context of meaning and of recognizing conceptuality in transition is indicated by the correlative recognition that these developments in earliest Christology took place within and as an expression of Jewish-Christian monotheism. In contrast, the too quick resort to the 'obvious' or 'plain' meaning actually becomes in some cases a resort to a form of bitheism or tritheism.
Dunn, James D. G. (1989), Christology in the Making (2nd edition), foreword.
Posted by Ozymandias - 06-01-2010 10:47 PM
God’s Word in the Old and New Testaments – Dabar and Logos
Dabar – from the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
Speech, word, speaking, thing.
Speech.
Saying, utterance.
Word, words.
Business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension.)
Logos – from the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek Lexicon:
Logos; logos, ho: (A) the word or that by which the inward thought is expressed (Latin: oratio), and, (B) the inward thought itself (Latin: ratio.)
Latin: vox, oratio, that which is said or spoken.
Latin: ratio, thought, reason.
Ho LOGOS, the Logos or Word, comprising both senses of Thought and Word. (New Testament.)
The logos is God's reason, purpose, and plan. It is what is what we call the "Word of God", whether spoken, written or conceived in His mind. The Old Testament uses the Hebrew word dabar in the same way that the New Testament uses the Greek word logos.
The Biblical Use of Dabar
The Words of Men and Women:
Genesis 44:2.
And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the dabar that Joseph had spoken
God’s Law and commandments:
Deuteronomy 4:2.
Ye shall not add unto the dabar which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
God’s creative work:
Genesis 1:3, 6, 14-15.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light... And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters... And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Psalm 33:6.
By the dabar of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
God’s purpose, as expressed through prophecy and fulfilled in world events:
Jeremiah 32:8.
So Hanameel mine uncle's son came to me in the court of the prison according to the dabar of the LORD, and said unto me, Buy my field, I pray thee, that is in Anathoth, which is in the country of Benjamin: for the right of inheritance is thine, and the redemption is thine; buy it for thyself. Then I knew that this was the dabar of the LORD.
Matthew 13:19.
When any one heareth the logos of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
John 5:24.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my logos, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 8:51.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my logos, he shall never see death.
John 15:3.
Now ye are clean through the logos which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:25.
But [this cometh to pass], that the logos might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:20.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their logos.
Acts 2:41.
Then they that gladly received his logos were baptized and the same day there were added about three thousand souls.
Acts 4:4.
Howbeit many of them which heard the logos believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Acts 4:29.
And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy logos.
The Logos – Pre-existent Christ, or Personification of God’s Word?
The conclusion which seems to emerge from our analysis thus far is that it is only with verse 14 that we can begin to speak of the personal logos. The poem uses rather impersonal language (“became fleshâ€), but no Christian would fail to recognize here a reference to Jesus – the word became not flesh in general but Jesus the Christ.
Prior to verse 14 we are in the same realm as pre-Christian talk of wisdom and logos, the same language that we find in the wisdom tradition and in Philo, where as we have seen we are dealing with personifications rather than persons, personified actions of God rather than an individual divine being as such. The point is obscured by the fact that we have to translate the masculine "logos" as "He" throughout the poem.
But if we translated "logos" as "God's utterance" instead, it would become clearer that the poem did not necessarily intend the "logos" in verses 1-13 to be thought of as a personal divine being. In other words the revolutionary significance of verse 14 may well be that it marks . . . the transition from impersonal personification to actual person.
Dunn, James D. G. (1980), Christology in the Making.
Notice the point that Dunn is making - the logos became Christ. He correctly observes that verse 14 involves “the transition from impersonal personification to actual person.†Until this happened, Christ did not literally exist. As an expression of the logos, he too, is a part of God’s creation – and by extension, he too, is a part of God’s self-expression.
This is amply demonstrated by the words of Isaiah 55:11, which prefigure the successful mission of Christ as the pinnacle of God’s logos:
So shall my dabar be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
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Well i believe that the one who is talking to Abraham is one of the three men ,they are sitting and eating and drinking before Abraham.
Then all 3 of them are standing up ,but one is still standing before Abraham as the other 2 wend down to Sodom,and now Abraham is standing before one of the three angels as he called up on him the name YHVH ?
The angel did not correct Abraham for doing so as we see the angel did with John in Revelation , why not ?
For it says in Gen 18:
1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby.
When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them AND BOW LOW TO THE GROUND .
3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my Lord, do not pass your servant by.
4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.
5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant."
"Very well," they answered, "do as you say."
Let,s read the scripture what Abraham is saying in furder on in Gen18:22,33.
22: The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD (YHVH).
33:When the LORD(YHVH) had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Abraham did understand who is talking to him ,and i understand to whom Abraham is talking .(John 1:18)
It is the I,Am ,
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AMâ€; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ â€
15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
And Jesus did say it is his name :
"Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one". (John17;11)
And now I can understand why Yeshua says in John 8:56
“Your father Abraham was glad that he should see My day, and he saw it and did rejoice.â€
57 The jews, therefore, said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?â€
58 Yeshua said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, " I am.â€
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Yeshua was hidden and went out of the Set-apart Place, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Anja says: as it say in the scripture “for us there is one Elohim(יהוה), the Father, from whom all came and for whom we live, and one Master( יהושע ) Messiah, through whom all came and through whom we live.†(1Cor8:6)
Compare this to Mal 2:10 and Eph 4:5,6
Posted by anjaandreas - Today 10:58 AM
Talkactive Wrote:
Dear Ozymandias
First of all I like to thank you for a sober and very nice presentation, with evidence of the Biblical meaning of Logos.
May I kindly ask you, in hope that you would like develop and describe the background for, what you believe and have come to this conclusion... a joining of the two:
Quote:
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
At the same time I agree with you, that Satan is real and not only in the mind of God, Jesus Christ and us Humans, where one of my references is, what comes fort in Ezekiel chapter 28 versus 13 to 15:
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ozymandias Wrote:
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
He talkactive you say : I agree with you, that Satan is real and not only in the mind of God.
But why then do you not believe in the Right arm of YHVH ?
John 12:38
YHVH his right arm is real for we did see it,s flesh , and not just a supposed strength of work as the watchtower did teach you.
Posted by Talkactive - Today 10:03 AM
Dear Ozymandias
First of all I like to thank you for a sober and very nice presentation, with evidence of the Biblical meaning of Logos.
May I kindly ask you, in hope that you would like develop and describe the background for, what you believe and have come to this conclusion... a joining of the two:
Quote:
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
At the same time I agree with you, that Satan and Jesus are real stand alone deities, like the sons of God as described in Genesis 6:1-4, not only in the mind of God, where it was Satan that tempted Eve and also Jesus Christ and continue to do it aginst us Humans, where one of my references is, what comes fort in Ezekiel chapter 28 versus 13 to 15:
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ozymandias Wrote:
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
Posted by isomam - Yesterday 10:25 AM
Ozymandias Wrote:
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
hi ozy thanks for your reply.
"labels and mental associations only obscure truth" -- i couldn't agree more.
"facts are facts" -- once again, i agree; however, often it is in the perception and/or interpretation of facts that things can get confusing. for example, as gogh previously quoted john 17:5, i will merely reiterate what it says here:
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (niv)
the fact of what the verse says is clear. yet, is it possible that you and i have different perceptions as to what it means?
i truly appreciate the respectful tone in which your presentations are made.
iso...
Posted by gogh - Yesterday 03:50 AM
Hi Oz
Thanks for responding, you state your position/belief regarding our Lords glory yet our Lord makes a statement regarding place...
"What if you saw the Son of Man going up to the place where he was before?"
How does your concept of "impersonal personification" explain Jesus' reference to location/place?
thanks,
gogh
Posted by Ozymandias - Yesterday 03:43 AM
Coggc is not christedelphian I believe in the devil and demons I believe in surety of salvation, the christedelphians overlook the "hasatan" the definite article I posted this thread about the meaning of davar and logos as plan or purpose and that is all, the scriptures cited show as much, there are many socinian christians and there have been from the very beginning, I'm associated with the restorationfellowship Jesus was born of a virgin is perfect the last Adam without sin everything the bible says, and he will return "heaven must hold him UNTIL" to set up the kingdom upon the new earth.
Read my previous post with the scriptures, this is not some offshoot of christidelphianism the roots go back further, labels and mental associations only obscure truth, let's tackle one subejct at a time facts are facts and in a world where plato believed in a secondary creator God the Jews were told God created things by himself with his own hands, the Jewish understanding reconciles everything and it all makes perfect harmonious sense.
I believe Jesus was fully human perfect without sin born of a virgin, and the prototype of the new creation and kingdom, we will be like him, I don't believe in an earthly or heavenly hope but in a joining of the two.
Posted by isomam - Yesterday 02:54 AM
hi ozy, my brother,
since much of what you are presenting as your beliefs/teachings parallels (more or less) the beliefs of christadelphians, i am just wondering if that is your particular belief system.
do you believe that the devil, whom the bible names as satan, actually tempted jesus at the end of his forty-day sojourn in the wilderness? do you believe satan the devil is an actual spirit person who set himself in opposition to the sovereign creator?
i'm only trying to get a better feel for what it is you are proposing. nothing more, nothing less.
if you choose to answer, thanks in advance.
your friend and brother in christ, ... isomam
ps: this little blurb from wiki summarizes some of the basic teachings of christadelphians. please comment, if you wish.
Christadelphians state that their beliefs[84] are based wholly on the Bible,[85] and they accept no other texts as inspired by God.[86] They believe that God is the creator of all things and the father of true believers,[87] that he is a separate being from his son, Jesus Christ,[88][89] and that the Holy Spirit is the power of God used in creation and for salvation.[90] They also believe that the phrase Holy Spirit sometimes refers to God's character/mind, depending on the context in which the phrase appears,[91] but reject the orthodox Christian view that we need strength, guidance and power from the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life, believing instead that the spirit a believer needs within themselves is the mind/character of God, which is developed in a believer by their reading of the Bible and trying to live by what it says during the events of their lives which God uses to help shape their character.
Christadelphian Hall in Bath, United KingdomChristadelphians believe that Jesus is the promised Jewish Messiah, in whom the prophecies and promises of the Old Testament find their fulfilment.[89][92][93] They believe he is the Son of Man, in that he inherited sinful human nature from his mother, and the Son of God by virtue of his miraculous conception by the power of God.[89][92][94] Although he was tempted, Jesus committed no sin, and was therefore a perfect representative sacrifice to bring salvation to sinful humankind.[89][92][94] They believe that God raised Jesus from death and gave him immortality, and he ascended to Heaven, God's dwelling place.[92] Christadelphians believe that he will return to the earth in person to set up the Kingdom of God in fulfilment of the promises made to Abraham and David.[95][96] This includes the belief that the coming Kingdom will be the restoration of God's first Kingdom of Israel, which was under David and Solomon.[97][98][99] For Christadelphians, this is the focal point of the gospel taught by Jesus and the apostles.
Christadelphians believe that people are separated from God because of their sins, but can be reconciled to him by becoming disciples of Jesus Christ.[100][101] This is by belief in correct doctrine, through repentance, and through baptism by total immersion in water.[101][102] They do not believe we can be sure of being saved believing instead that salvation comes as a result of a life of obedience to the commands of Christ [103] After death, believers are in a state of non-existence, knowing nothing until the Resurrection at the return of Christ.[104] Following the judgement at that time, the accepted receive the gift of immortality, and live with Christ on a restored Earth, assisting him to establish the Kingdom of God and to rule over the mortal population for a thousand years (the Millennium).[105] Christadelphians believe that the Kingdom will be centred upon Israel, but Jesus Christ will also reign over all the other nations on the earth.[106] Some believe that the Kingdom itself is not worldwide but limited to the land of Israel promised to Abraham and ruled over in the past by David, with a worldwide empire.[107]
Christadelphians reject a number of doctrines held by many other Christians, notably the immortality of the soul, trinitarianism,[88][91] the pre-existence of Christ,[89][91] the baptism of infants,[102] the personhood of the Holy Spirit[88][89][90][91] and the present-day possession of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.[90][91][92] They believe that the word devil is a reference to sin and human nature in opposition to God while the word satan is merely a reference to an adversary (be it good or bad). According to Christadelphians, these terms are used in reference to specific political systems or individuals in opposition or conflict. Hell is understood to refer to death and the grave, rather than being a place of eternal torment.[94][108] Christadelphians do not believe that anyone can go to Heaven. Instead, they believe that only Christ Jesus went to Heaven, and when Christ Jesus comes back to the earth the true believers will live in the Land of Israel which will be the Kingdom of God on Earth. Christadelphians believe the doctrines they reject were introduced into Christendom after the 1st century,[109] and cannot be demonstrated from the Bible.[88][89][91]
Marriage and family life are important.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christadelphians
Posted by Ozymandias - Yesterday 02:19 AM
Gogh I commented on that verse in the other thread, we will both agree Jesus wasn't glorifyed before he was born literally, he was after and for the joy set before him he endured a torture stake etc, he had glory with the Father before the world was in as the lamb slain before the founding of the world and plan and purpose of God,God before through the prophets prophesied About him and the glory he would have, we as believers are also spoken of as having glory with God before the founding of the world, read my response in the other thread.
as far as impersonal personification I'm talking about personification how did the Jews understand wisdom? As a person or as a personification of Gods wisdom, you can't read a Jewish document through gentile lenses, the Jews were Gods people yes they got some things wrong however they were set apart from the nations with Gods truth, if something in the old testament contradicts an understanding that the pagans had during those times, and later they come along and say the Jews were wrong does that mean the pagans were right? That's fishy to me , the Jews awaited their messiah born from not through the line of David if you all want to see actual evidence concerning every verse you can concieve go to
http://www.biblicaltruthseekers.co.uk
Posted by isomam - Yesterday 01:47 AM
"...of verse 14 may well be that it marks ... the transition from impersonal personification to actual person."
"impersonal personification." now there's a dandy oxymoron if i ever heard one.
Posted by gogh - Yesterday 12:16 AM
Greetings and howdy Ozy
If I am understanding you as you would intend to be understood....I have ? re:
"...of verse 14 may well be that it marks . . . the transition from impersonal personification to actual person."
How could impersonal personification have glory; such as our Lord did before becoming the human Jesus?
John 6:62...
"What if you saw the Son of Man going up to the place where he was before?
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
But there are some among you who do not believe."
John 17:5...
"So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed."
Christian love,
gogh
Posted by Ozymandias - 06-01-2010 10:54 PM
What is Meant by “The Word was God�
If John says that the logos was...
pros ton theos
...meaning that the logos was with God (by which he confirms that the logos was not literally the person of God, Who in this passage is obviously the Father) and then goes on to say that...
theos en ton logos
...the logos was divine, we cannot interpret “theos en ton logos†as a literal reference to God Himself without presenting Christianity with (a) two separate Gods, or (B) Modalism (an ancient heresy which taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same person.) We must therefore understand that “theos en ton logos†is a purely qualitative statement - it refers to the fact that the logos (being the reason, purpose and plan of God) was divine.
Even Trinitarians will agree with the fact that “the logos was divine†is a proper translation of the text, because they read John 1:1 as “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God the Son, and God the Son was with God the Father.†So we are perfectly justified in reading “theos en ton logos†as “the logos was divine.â€
This form of language is by no means unique to the classical world. Even today, we speak of “a religious ethic†or “A godly man†or “a divine ideal†or “the divine hierarchy†(as in the case of I Corinthians 11:1-3.) In the same way, we make mention of “secular philosophyâ€, “contemporary thoughtâ€, “atheistic reasoningâ€, "a nihilistic conceptâ€, or “the antiquarian mind.†These are qualitative statements; they refer to the source and disposition of abstract ideas - not to literal entities.
With this understood, we can now see that the Original New Testament (published 1985) gives a clear reading of the passage in question, without resorting to theological bias:
In the Beginning was the Word.
And the Word was with God.
So the Word was divine.
It was in the Beginning with God.
By it everything had being.
And without it nothing had being ...
In his own New Testament translation, William Barclay (a former professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University) makes the following note:
Logos has two meanings, which no one English word can express. Logos means word, and Logos means mind. A word is the expression of thought. Therefore Jesus is the expression of the thought of God. Or to take the other meaning, in Jesus we see the mind of God.
[...]
In Jesus the mind of God becomes a person.
Again, in his Gospel of John, Barclay writes:
In Greek logos means two things: it means 'word' and it means 'reason.'
[...]
The Logos of God, the mind of God, is responsible for the majestic order of the world.
[...]
He (John) said to the Greeks, "All your lives you have been fascinated by this great, guiding, controlling mind of God. The mind of God has come to earth in the man Jesus. Look at him and you will see what the mind and thought of God are like.
[...]
By calling Jesus the logos, John said two things about Jesus:
(a) Jesus is the creating power of God come to men. He does not only speak the word of knowledge; he is the word of power. He did not come so much to say things to us, as to do things for us.
(b) Jesus is the incarnate mind of God. We might well translate John's words, 'The mind of God became a man'. A word is always 'the expression of a thought' and Jesus is the perfect expression of God's thoughts for men.
A Paraphrase of John 1:1-18
In the beginning, there was a pattern for everything.
The pattern was God’s; the pattern was divine.
The pattern was God’s from the beginning.
Everything that exists, came from that pattern. There is nothing that exists now, which did not first exist in the mind of God.
The pattern is both the source of new life and the meaning of life.
It is a way of life in opposition to death, and death cannot overcome it.
God sent a man named John to tell people about this new way of life so that everybody would trust the agent of God, through whom new life would come.
John was not this agent, but he taught people how to recognise the one who was.
The agent of new life was coming into the world.
To some people, however, this new life is unrecognisable.
Some who could be expected to embrace this new life, select death instead.
Others embrace the new life. They trust what God has to offer; and He accepts them as His children.
God made this offer to His entire creation. Its source is heavenly, not earthly.
God is not only the source, but also the meaning of life itself.
God’s divine pattern was embodied in a man who lived among us.
No man has seen God literally – but they have seen His only-begotten Son Jesus – the agent of new life, and the representative of God.
There is no argument for the deity of Christ here. Indeed, such a concept would serve no purpose in the context of John's prologue.
Posted by Ozymandias - 06-01-2010 10:51 PM
Is the Logos of John 1 a "He" or an "It"?
A Review of Protestant Bibles Before the KJV:
The Geneva Bible – 1560
In the beginning was the Worde, and the Worde was with God and that Worde was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by , & without it was made nothing that was made.
Tyndale’s Bible – 1525
In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God: and God was that Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing: that made it.
Tyndale’s New Testament – 1530
In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God.
All thinges were made by it, and with out it, was made nothinge, that was made.
Matthew’s Bible – 1537
Used it instead of "him" in John 1:3-4.
Coverdale’s Bible – 1539 & 1540
In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was ye worde. The same was in the begynnynge with God.
All thinges were made by the same, and without the same was made nothinge that was made.
The Great Bibleof 1539
Used it instead of him in John 1:3-4.
The Bishop’s Bible – 1568
Used it instead of him in John 1:3-4.
There is no justification for seeing the logos as a "he" instead of an "it." The sheer consistency of the OT and NT militates against such a proposal.
One can easily get in too deep when a debate effectively says my experts are better than yours and then go on to besmirch the character of Tyndale.
This can easily be avoided I discovered by letting virtually all the versions speak the truth for themselves!
Phrase autos ho logos in the Greek
logos("saying") is rendered neuter ("it") in these following versions
Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? DR
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? KJV
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" NKJ
Many therefore of his disciples, when the heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? ASV
Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" RSV
After hearing it, many of his followers said, "This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?" JB
On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "this is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" NIV
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?†ESV
Then many of his disciples, when they heard these things, said, “This is a difficult saying! Who can understand it?†NET
The saying here of course is the word(logos) of Jesus
The masculine word logos is here rendered neuter.
John’s Prologue – Jewish Language; Jewish Concepts
Patristic theology of whatever school abused these texts by taking them out of context and giving them a meaning which John never intended. Functional language about the Son and the Spirit being sent into the world by the Father was transposed into that of eternal and internal relationships between Persons in the Godhead and words like "generation" and "procession" made into technical terms, which New Testament usage simply will not substantiate… John is a typical representative of the New Testament, not the anomalous exception, with one foot in the world of Greek philosophy, that he is so often presented.
Robinson, J.A.T. (1984), Twelve More New Testament Studies.
Dr Robinson was a former Bishop of the Anglican Church in Woolwich during the 1960s
The opening sentences of John's Gospel, which might sound like the philosophy of Philo, could be understood by an educated Jew or Christian without any reference to Philo. Therefore we should not argue from Philo's meaning of "word" as a hypostasis that John also meant by "word" a pre-existing personality. In the remainder of the Gospel and in I John, "word" is never to be understood in a personal sense...
It means rather the "revelation" of God which had earlier been given to Israel (10:35), had come to the Jews in Holy Scripture (5:38) and which had been entrusted to Jesus and committed by him to his disciples (8:55; 12:48; 17:6; 8, 14, 17; 1 John 1:1) and which would now be preserved by them (1 John 1:10; 2:5, 14.)
The slightly personifying way in which the word is spoken of as into the world (1:9-14) is typical of the personifying style of the Old Testament references to the word (Isa. 55:11; Psa. 107:20; 147:15. cp. 2 Thess. 3:1.) It cannot be proved that the author of the prologue thought of the word as a real person. Only the historical Jesus and not the original word is said to be the Son (John 1:14, 18.) But in this Son there dwelt and worked the eternal revelation of God.
Wendt, Hans (1907), System der Christlichen Lehre.
Dr Wendt was a former Professor of Systematic Theology at the University of Jena in Germany.
John’s Prologue – Pre-existence in the Jewish Mind
That any expression or vehicle of God's will for the world, His saving counsel and purpose, was present in His mind, or His 'Word' from the beginning is a natural way of saying that it is not fortuitous, but the due unfolding and expression of God’s own being. This attribution of pre-existence indicates religious importance of the highest order.
Rabbinic theology speaks of the Law, of God's throne of glory, of Israel and of other important objects of faith, as things which had been created by God, and were already present with Him, before the creation of the world. The same is also true of the Messiah. It is said that his name was present with God in heaven beforehand, that it was created before the world, and that it is eternal.
But the reference here is not to genuine pre-existence in the strict and literal sense. This is clear from the fact that Israel is included among these pre-existent entities. This does not mean that either the nation Israel or its ancestor existed long ago in heaven, but that the community Israel, the people of God, had been from all eternity in the mind of God, as a factor in His purpose.
Mowinckel, S. (1954), He Who Cometh.
The importance of setting these texts within the historical context of meaning and of recognizing conceptuality in transition is indicated by the correlative recognition that these developments in earliest Christology took place within and as an expression of Jewish-Christian monotheism. In contrast, the too quick resort to the 'obvious' or 'plain' meaning actually becomes in some cases a resort to a form of bitheism or tritheism.
Dunn, James D. G. (1989), Christology in the Making (2nd edition), foreword.
Posted by Ozymandias - 06-01-2010 10:47 PM
God’s Word in the Old and New Testaments – Dabar and Logos
Dabar – from the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:
Speech, word, speaking, thing.
Speech.
Saying, utterance.
Word, words.
Business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension.)
Logos – from the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek Lexicon:
Logos; logos, ho: (A) the word or that by which the inward thought is expressed (Latin: oratio), and, (B) the inward thought itself (Latin: ratio.)
Latin: vox, oratio, that which is said or spoken.
Latin: ratio, thought, reason.
Ho LOGOS, the Logos or Word, comprising both senses of Thought and Word. (New Testament.)
The logos is God's reason, purpose, and plan. It is what is what we call the "Word of God", whether spoken, written or conceived in His mind. The Old Testament uses the Hebrew word dabar in the same way that the New Testament uses the Greek word logos.
The Biblical Use of Dabar
The Words of Men and Women:
Genesis 44:2.
And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the dabar that Joseph had spoken
God’s Law and commandments:
Deuteronomy 4:2.
Ye shall not add unto the dabar which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
God’s creative work:
Genesis 1:3, 6, 14-15.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light... And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters... And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Psalm 33:6.
By the dabar of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
God’s purpose, as expressed through prophecy and fulfilled in world events:
Jeremiah 32:8.
So Hanameel mine uncle's son came to me in the court of the prison according to the dabar of the LORD, and said unto me, Buy my field, I pray thee, that is in Anathoth, which is in the country of Benjamin: for the right of inheritance is thine, and the redemption is thine; buy it for thyself. Then I knew that this was the dabar of the LORD.
Matthew 13:19.
When any one heareth the logos of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
John 5:24.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my logos, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 8:51.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my logos, he shall never see death.
John 15:3.
Now ye are clean through the logos which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:25.
But [this cometh to pass], that the logos might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
John 17:20.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their logos.
Acts 2:41.
Then they that gladly received his logos were baptized and the same day there were added about three thousand souls.
Acts 4:4.
Howbeit many of them which heard the logos believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Acts 4:29.
And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy logos.
The Logos – Pre-existent Christ, or Personification of God’s Word?
The conclusion which seems to emerge from our analysis thus far is that it is only with verse 14 that we can begin to speak of the personal logos. The poem uses rather impersonal language (“became fleshâ€), but no Christian would fail to recognize here a reference to Jesus – the word became not flesh in general but Jesus the Christ.
Prior to verse 14 we are in the same realm as pre-Christian talk of wisdom and logos, the same language that we find in the wisdom tradition and in Philo, where as we have seen we are dealing with personifications rather than persons, personified actions of God rather than an individual divine being as such. The point is obscured by the fact that we have to translate the masculine "logos" as "He" throughout the poem.
But if we translated "logos" as "God's utterance" instead, it would become clearer that the poem did not necessarily intend the "logos" in verses 1-13 to be thought of as a personal divine being. In other words the revolutionary significance of verse 14 may well be that it marks . . . the transition from impersonal personification to actual person.
Dunn, James D. G. (1980), Christology in the Making.
Notice the point that Dunn is making - the logos became Christ. He correctly observes that verse 14 involves “the transition from impersonal personification to actual person.†Until this happened, Christ did not literally exist. As an expression of the logos, he too, is a part of God’s creation – and by extension, he too, is a part of God’s self-expression.
This is amply demonstrated by the words of Isaiah 55:11, which prefigure the successful mission of Christ as the pinnacle of God’s logos:
So shall my dabar be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
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