Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Hi Folks

Browsing again through Revelation last night, I thought about this part of scripture in particular:

"And I saw another strong angel descending from heaven, arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as the sun, and his feet were as fiery pillars, and he had in his hand a little scroll opened. And he set his right foot upon the sea, but his left one upon the earth, and he cried out with a loud voice just as when a lion roars. And when he cried out, the seven thunders uttered their own voices." (Rev 10:1-3)

Now, I noticed that, a few chapters later, two wild beasts emerge from those very same places upon which this angel placed his feet:

"And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea..." (Rev 13:1)

"And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth..." (Rev 13:11)

Are the two therefore linked? If so, how?

The picture of the angel in Revelation 10 also reminded me of Nebuchadnezzar's statue image, in Daniel 2... particularly in the feet:

"You, O king, happened to be beholding, and, look! a certain immense image. That image, which was large and the brightness of which was extraordinary... its legs were of iron, its feet were partly of iron and partly of molded clay." (Dan 2:31-33)

After giving this some thought, I think that while the strong angel does NOT represent Nebuchadnezzar image, I think the word picture is alluding to it. pointing forward to the fact that the two wild beasts about to be revealed (in Rev 13) are, in fact, the two "feet" of Nebuchadnezzar's image.

In Nebuchadnezzar's image, the feet are part of the "fourth kingdom", originating from the legs of iron. The feet represent this same fourth kingdom in its divided state, with the feet made partly of iron, and partly of molded clay.

This fits perfectly with the descriptions of the two wild beasts in Revelation. The first beast arises from the sea, and acts very much like the kingdom of "iron" in Daniel.

The other reason this makes sense to me, is that the strong angel holds "a little scroll opened". While John is told to seal up the seven thunders, the contents of the opened scroll ARE revealed, and in fact John is told to gobble it down and that "You must prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings." (Rev 10:11)

So this vivid word picture suggests that John would be revealing prophecy with regard to "peoples and nations and tongues and many kings"... and only a few chapters later, he's talking about two wild beasts, Babylon the Great, ten kings and so on!

But he alludes to LOTS of Daniel in-between - such as the "time, times and half a time" (Daniel 11, 12), Michael arising (as in Daniel 12), and a blasphemous entity blaspheming God (Daniel 7, 11).

So I would tentatively suggest that the strong angel's feet as fiery pillars may be alluding to the feet of the statue in Daniel 2.

Another thing that also occurred to me is that the pillars could also be alluding to the pillar of fire and cloud that led the Hebrews out of Egypt and across the Red Sea. That's certainly true of Rev 15, where those who come off victorious from the wild beast stand by a "glassy sea" and sing the "Song of Moses"!

Wow... Revelation is a rich tapestry of symbology, allusions, metaphors and word pictures.

By the way, in case anyone's wondering... my take on the first and second wild beasts is that the first wild beast represents Daniel's kingdom of iron as it stood around 70AD... namely, the all-powerful Roman empire, master of all the inhabited earth (compare Luke 2:1 for reference) that had just recovered from its deadly wound (the fall of the Julio-Claudian line and the civil war in Rome which historians call the "Year Of The Four Emperors", i.e. 69AD), trampled upon the holy city for 42 months (between 70AD when Titus breached its walls, and 73AD when Masada was captured and the Jewish war came to an end).

The second wild beast was the Papal kingdom which arose out of the former, and fashioned an image of the former, namely the "Holy Roman Empire" under the Pope, with all its inhabitants subject to the CROSS (the "taw", the Hebrew letter corresponding to the English letter T, which in Ezekiel 9:4 was an ancient cross mark, i.e. X).

It is this kingdom that misled the inhabited earth with signs and wonders, pretended to exclusively represent God on earth, persecuted and tortured millions in the name of Christ, terrified and assassinated kings, and forbade trade with those who did not bear its mark. The period of its reign is generally known by historians as the "Dark Ages".

Interpretum,

I think that is indeed a profound discernment.

You could also extend it further to the seven thunders and the seven heads.

When I look past all the preterist stuff there is still value in reading your posts.

Relating it back to Daniel seems a necessary thing to do considering that is where we encounter so many wild beasts.

My futurist view of the beasts connects the symbols to Gods actual kingdom rather than pagan nations.

Future is probably a misnomer when I actually think it is present.

I believe the mountain that breaks those feet relates to Jesus Christ returning with his angels and throwing the lawless ones out of his kingdom and into the fiery furnace. see Mathew 13.

If lawless ones and righteous ones are in Jesus Christs kingdom then it makes sense that they will not stick together like iron and clay.

After all, the kingdom is supposed to be about justice and righteousness!

The lawless ones will expel the righteous and imagine they have done a sacred service to God. They will not stick together inside the kingdom.

I think the little scroll being both sweet and bitter has everything to do with the quality of worship in Jesus Christs Kingdom as the end approaches.

Measuring that quality is the first task given in the next chapter, 11.

What you said here is sweet:

If you go to Deuteronomy and read the words to Moses Song they are a bitter pill to swallow.

I think the kings mentioned in "peoples and nations and tongues and many kings" are not pagan kings but the saints, the kings of the earth identified as the audience, right at the start of the Book of Revelation.

If God had a message for the future to give, it certainly should be some guidance for those same anointed kings.

In amongst those kings the 12 sons of Jacob should be the most significant. (see Genesis 49:1) Perhaps represented as the twelve stars over the womans head.

When I run across scriptures which say the stars of heaven are going to fall to the ground I often think it means these anointed saints.

Makes my belly bitter thinking about it.

If you examine the 20th Century history, it looks like one enormous blood bath.

The 20th Century make the so called "dark ages" look like a cakewalk.

The name "dark ages" has already been used for a different period of time. Perhaps an inventive historian in the future will think of a name for the 20th Century ages which will put it in the most deserving pigeon hole.


In Christ

abe

just a thought

what if the kingdom has more to do with religion/beliefs then the power of the kingdom.

maybe the feet are the last becuase they are made from a jewish/christian structure.

to me that would in fact make musch sense. "well of course you say" you thought of it"

ok besides that I thougt of it.
if we relate the materials to how the kingdoms were held together I wonder if it matches up better.?

i would say the romans were like iron both in military might as well as religous rule.

and as for the earth and the sea, we have gone over this many times the earth could be the jewish peoples while the sea could be the gentiles.

just some more thoughts

Hi ABM

:D

Keep in mind though, that in regard to Revelation I'm not a Preterist, strictly speaking. I take a similar view of Revelation as most see Daniel, i.e. a book of prophecies that unfold over hundreds - even thousands - of years. Only the events contained in the "seven seals" and "seven trumpets" are pre-73AD... after that, the wild beasts span hundreds of years, like Daniel's beasts... in my opinion, of course.

How do you see the Daniel 2 statue unfolding in history and / or future? To me, it seems to set out the outline for later prophecies... namely Babylon (the head), Medo-Persia, Greece (belly and thighs), Rome (legs of iron), divided Rome (feet of iron and clay), fragmented Roman kingdoms (toes)... finally being crushed by the kingdom of God.

This seems to follow the historical pattern and match up with the later beasts of Daniel, but I'm curious to know how you view the various parts of the Daniel 2 statue.

Maybe, but keep in mind that this is a Jewish idiom first used in Ezekiel. It simply meant Ezekiel had to deliver a bitter message.

It's not entirely clear what is contained in the opened scroll - whether it is the message of Revelation itself, or of an earlier prophecy (i.e. Daniel).

Sure, I agree with you... did you know that I view (at least tentatively) many of the major events in the 20th century as a partial fulfillment of Revelation 16? Much of the bloodshed happened in the heart of the "wild beast", if you go with the historical interpretation (namely, the first wild beast being the Roman empire).. World Wars I and II were fragments of that empire warring with each other.

The reason I'm no longer a "Futurist" is because, to say that Jesus Christ inspired his revelation, yet completely ignored his followers or gave them any prophetic guidance for the 1,900 years between John's day and "our day" is absurd.

Christians on the watch throughout history have used the books of Daniel and Revelation to accurately predict the dividing and fall of the Roman empire, and recognized a later corruption of Christianity into a religious / political system (fulfilling all the qualities of antichrist), as implied by Revelation 13.

In Daniel, God provided the Jews with the details... through hundreds of years of prophecy... which would lead to the downfall of their city.

Why would God not do the same for Christians? He has... in Revelation. It outlines 2,000 years of major political / religious development... and then 1,000 years of restoration (in beautiful symmetry).

To try and compress the whole of Revelation into some future 3.5 or 7 year period is... nuts if you really think about it :D

Hi Totaldismay

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yes... and historically, once Christianity became the state religion, this moderated some of its hardness (at least for a while) and made it more fragile, which was why (in my opinion) the statue in Daniel 2 has molded clay mixed in with it... and the second wild beast in Revelation comes from the earth.

This is the effect of Christianity being mingled in with the Roman state, eventually leading to what we call Christendom, and later the Papal kingdoms with "God on earth", as one of the Pope's many titles.

:priest:

Interpretum,

I presently don't have a cemented view of the statue.

The first view I ever had is entirely based on the Watchtower.

My entire view of the Book of Revelation is now very different to what the Watchtower teaches. Having reached that conclusion in regard to Revelation I now question all of their interpretations including the statue.

The statue does seem to represent a slow decline of power structures through from Nebuchadnezzar to the end.

In Nebuchadnezzars time no one would question his authority. This does indeed seem to be as a result of Gods blessings on him.

If you consider how people regard the most recent Presidents of the United States then it is easy to see how ruler-ship on the earth has declined.

Most of the recent Presidents are treated as buffoons and it may well be deserved.

If there really is a world ruling power right now then it does not have many patriots.

I often wonder if the iron and molded clay are God fearing as opposed to Atheists.

There are countries whose state is their religion and other countries where state has nothing to do with religion.

Or perhaps it is dictatorships and democracies, iron and clay.

I do believe that the democratic election of rulers is something relatively new when I measure against history going back to Babylon.

Probably starting around the time of Oliver Cromwell and still spreading around the world in our very recent history.

Democracy definitely divides the idea of appointed rulers by God and elected rulers by men.

Nebuchadnezzars claim to fame is that he had Gods total backing.(except for a small 7 year period.)

It could also be righteous and lawless, iron and clay as I said above.

Malachi does say that we will see a distinction as the end approaches.

I still have not cemented my opinion and so none of this is conviction except that Jesus Christs return described in Matthew Ch13 is what will crush those feet.

If I do have an opinion then it is that what the Watchtower teaches is probably designed to mislead.

My thoughts regarding the later beasts of Daniel however, have been adjusted in recent years in ways which completely depart from popular opinion.

I have already discussed these opinions on other threads.

For example compare the fourth and last beast of Daniel Chapter 7 to a scripture in Micah Chapter 3.


Daniel 7:7
“After this I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! a fourth beast, fearsome and terrible and unusually strong. And it had teeth of iron, big ones. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it was treading down with its feet. And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns

Micah 3:1-3
And I proceeded to say: “Hear, please, YOU heads of Jacob and YOU commanders of the house of Israel. Is it not YOUR business to know justice? 2 YOU haters of what is good and lovers of badness, tearing off their skin from people and their organism from off their bones; 3 YOU the ones who have also eaten the organism of my people, and have stripped their very skin from off them, and smashed to pieces their very bones, and crushed [them] to pieces like what is in a widemouthed pot and like flesh in the midst of a cooking pot.5 “This is what Jehovah has said against the prophets that are causing my people to wander, that are biting with their teeth


Do you see the very similar expressions used to describe the beast and also the condemnation of the rulers of Gods people?

For this reason I have departed from the popular view that the beasts represent pagan nations.

I now believe they represent the evolution of Gods people.

Chapter 7: from Judaism to the end.
Chapter 8: from Christianity to the end

I have not reconciled all the detail of Chapter 7 however, feel comfortable with the beasts in Chapter 8.


In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

I think the future bitter sweet message was also something that Jesus Christ alluded to when he said this:

John 16
For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him to YOU. 8 And when that one arrives he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: 9 in the first place, concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; 10 then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will behold me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU.


when that one arrives: FUTURE!
concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me: BITTER!
then concerning righteousness: SWEET!
then concerning judgment: BITTER/SWEET
YOU are not able to bear them at present: BITTER!


In Christ

abe

Interpretum,

This is where you sneak in a bunch of preterist stuff?

I think Daniel provided the Jews and Christians with the details which stretch right up to the end.

Many will go roving about and the true knowledge become known.

My personal view of the 70 weeks prophecy cements my conviction that it stretches out to a still future event.

Consider this:

Daniel 9
“There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite.


The future event that will accomplish this?

Matthew 13
Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.


Daniel: terminate the transgression
Matthew: all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness

Daniel: to bring in righteousness for times indefinite
Matthew: At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father
.

For this reason I think Daniel is extremely relevant for Christians living in the end, the very final days.

The preterist viewpoint undermines this sentiment which in my opinion will not be advantageous to the wannabe Christian.


The Watchtower also undermine this sentiment with their interpretation.

It seems they don't want people to think there would be any lawlessness inside Jesus Christs TRUE Kingdom when he finally does arrive with his angels.

I understand why it is to their own selfish advantage to lead their congregations away from this sentiment.



In Christ

abe

Hi ABM

But why not apply that logic to Revelation as well, which I do? I think Revelation also provided the Jews and Christians with the details which stretch right up to the end.

OK, but please read the following scripture carefully, the words of the prophet John the Baptist, which is directly relevant to Jesus' words:

"When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “YOU offspring of vipers, who has intimated to YOU to flee from the coming wrath? So then produce fruit that befits repentance; and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire. His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.” (Mathew 3:7-12)

Please note that John uses very similar language to Jesus, but he directly applies it to the scribes and Pharisees, warning THEM that "already the ax is lying at the root of the trees".

Are you absolutely sure that Jesus' words in Mathew 13 are future, given that John applies them to the scribes and Pharisees? If John and Jesus were really talking about events 2,000 years in their future, why would the scribes and Pharisees care?

Incidentally, note also John the Baptist's phrase: "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." The only way of applying this without ANY spin is to take him as his word - near means near.

I would suggest the "conclusion of the system of things" referred to by Jesus happened in 70AD, and that Jesus chopped down the tree and gathered his wheat, around 70AD.

This is only because there is a very clear match up of Daniel's prophecies with historical events. Besides, my viewpoint is supported by the angel, who as I've pointed out before, tells us what the Daniel 9 prophecy refers to:

"There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city..."

It is hardly "spin" to recognize that Daniel's people were Jews, and Daniel's holy city was Jerusalem... this is precisely what Daniel was praying about!

The book of Daniel is predominantly a book of prophecies pertaining to THE JEWS. But, of course, it's still relevant to Christians, because their Messiah is also our Messiah.

Howdy InterP

Re: "...Jesus chopped down the tree and gathered his wheat, around 70AD."

Is Jesus continuing to "gather his wheat"?

Was this been fulfilled around 70AD .... “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people........ And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence." ?

Was Satan abyssed around 70AD as well?

???

Interpretum,

We have already had the preterist, futurist discussion regarding these same issues several times on this forum.

I would rather move ahead and discuss the possibilities of your earth, sea discernments.

Exploring that idea is something new and might be exciting.

There are also other people on this forum who could add value.

Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.


In Christ

abe

Howdy Gogh

Great questions.

In a sense, yes. If we look at the illustration Jesus gave of the marriage feast, the gathering to the feast continued AFTER the king came and destroyed the city. I have highlighted the particularly significant parts, although I'd suggest you read the entire illustration to get the context:

So here we have an initial invitation to the king's marriage feast sent out, but they begged off... or worse, treated the kings slaves insolently, and even killed them... so the king destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

This part of the illustration is an analogy representing Jesus Christ and his followers inviting the Jews to the Kingdom, but they rejected him and treated his followers insolently, with Jerusalem eventually destroyed.

AFTER the destruction of the city, they "go to the roads leading out of the city, and anyone YOU find invite to the marriage feast". So I would suggest this refers to a continual invitation, after 70AD.

I would suggest that the gathering of the wheat and the burning of the weeds in 70AD was an INITIAL harvest... "firstfruits" as Revelation calls it. If we think about it, the apostles and disciples of Jesus were literally firstfruits of the Kingdom!

But certainly after 70AD, people have been invited to the marriage feast, and as we both I'm sure agree, Revelation 19 depicts the evening meal of the marriage feast, which hasn't happened yet.

I wrote a thread on this board showing that Daniel 11 goes from the kings of Greece right through to Nero, the one who was disturbed from reports out of the north (Gaul) and sunrising (east, Judea) of his empire, until he committed suicide... so everything tracked, which forced me to conclude that your quoted passage must also have been fulfilled around that time.

Certainly Michael could have stood up at this time... the prince on behalf of Daniel's people the Jews. We know historically that lots of interesting stuff happened during this period (66-73AD), i.e. the Romans withdrawing unexpectedly for no apparent reason in 66AD, allowing Jewish Christians to flee.

The bit even I myself find most difficult to grasp is the concept that "there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up"... around 70AD?

Difficult to grasp, I freely admit, but if you think about it... what was Paul telling the Christians of his own day?

"For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence." (1 Cor 15:22,23)

If I'm correct in saying that Jesus' "presence" occurred around the destruction of Jerusalem, then Paul is talking about a resurrection during this time.

Also, consider Paul's words in the following passage... you'll be familiar with them, but IF there was a resurrection around 70AD, it puts this passage in an entirely new light:

"For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord." (1 Thess 4:15-17)

If you think about it, why was Paul convinced here that HE would be part of the LIVING who would be caught away with the RESURRECTED ONES to meet the Lord in the air?

Surely the only answer is that Paul was convinced that this resurrection (of dead ones) and changing (of living ones) would occur within his own lifetime.

That would be true if such a thing DID take place around 70AD or so... (although Paul did die earlier than this.)

Also, notice how Jesus talked about the resurrection:

“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:25-29)

In the first verse here he says, "The hour is coming, and it is now..." implying that Jesus himself was waking the "dead" so that those who have "given heed" will "live". He then says that God has given him authority to "do judging".

So it may be that the passage in Daniel (which Jesus seems to quote just afterwards) is first of all alluding to a spiritual resurrection and judgment, and their judgment was whether they heeded the words of the living Son of God who was doing miracles in their midst.

As I said, this is the most difficult part for me... but still, you have to admit that Jesus uses the present tense as well here... "the hour is coming, and IT IS NOW"... implying that such a waking from the dead in some sense was already taking place.

Is it inconceivable that Christ would have awoken some others from the dead, during the period around 70AD? I don't think so... and it would perfectly harmonize with Paul's own expectations.

I don't believe so. Revelation 12 is, in my opinion, the equivalent of Michael standing up, in Daniel 12. Satan is KICKED OUT OF HEAVEN around this period (possibly a little earlier than 70AD).

I now believe the "short period of time" he knew he had was in reference to the 3.5 year or 7 year WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY he had to destroy the seed.

This 7 year period was based on Daniel 9, the 70th week. Satan would no doubt be familiar with this prophecy, and would know that the 70th week had commenced around 66AD, with the Romans withdrawal. This was his window of opportunity to destroy the seed, and we know historically that Christians and particularly Jews were attacked viciously during this period, across the entire Roman empire.

Revelation 12 talks about the woman fleeing into the wilderness for 3.5 years - in my opinion, probably representing the fleeing of the Jewish Christians from Jerusalem.

In Revelation 13, we see the emergence of the first wild beast, with authority to "act forty-two months". This, in my opinion, was the SECOND HALF of this 7 year period (70-73AD) where the Romans trampled Jerusalem and the Temple, and completed their war against the Jews.

This period of 7 years (66-73AD) was, in my opinion, the "short period of time" the dragon knew he had, in order to wipe out the seed... which is why, immediately after we're told of this "short period of time", he launches his vicious war against the seed.

Satan does not get abyssed until Revelation 20, which has not yet happened.

Historically, the first wild beast (the Roman empire after its wounding and revival in 69AD under Vespasian) and the second wild beast (the Papal kingdom) were Satan's attempt to continue that war, although he no longer had the legal authority to act after that 66-73AD window.

Hi InterP

Thanks for your explanation of what you teach.

So...if according to you interpretation of Revelation chapter twelve, do you also teach that the last portion of Revelation chapter 11 has been fulfilled...namely those that have ruined/destroyed the earth have been ruined/destroyed?

Revelation 11:16...

"Then the twenty-four elders who were sitting on their thrones in God's presence fell on their faces and worshiped God.
They said, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to rule.
The nations were angry, but your wrath has come. It is time for the dead to be judged- to reward your servants, the prophets, the saints, and all who fear your name, both unimportant and important, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen inside his temple. There were flashes of lightning, noises, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. "

thanks,

gogh...:coffeeread:

Hi Gogh

Yes. However, allow me to explain that answer.

There are many times in scripture where certain events are spoken in grand terms that are somewhat "exaggerated". For example, think of the authority God granted Nebuchadnezzar:

"You, O king, the king of kings, you to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the might, and the strength and the dignity, and into whose hand he has given, wherever the sons of mankind are dwelling, the beasts of the field and the winged creatures of the heavens, and whom he has made ruler over all of them, you yourself are the head of gold." (Daniel 2:36-38)

"The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong and the height of which finally reached the heavens and which was visible to all the earth, 21 and the foliage of which was fair, and the fruit of which was abundant, and on which there was food for all; under which the beasts of the field would dwell, and on the boughs of which the birds of the heavens would reside, it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth." (Daniel 4:20-22)

I doubt Nebuchadnezzar actually had physical control of all the winged creatures of the heavens, or actually reached to the heavens, or to the actual extremity of the earth. The vision exaggerated these things, presumably to make a point about Nebuchadnezzar's power, which was vast.

Similarly, look at Psalm 2, to which Revelation 11 seems to allude:

Why have the nations been in tumult
And the national groups themselves kept muttering an empty thing?
The kings of earth take their stand
And high officials themselves have massed together as one
Against Jehovah and against his anointed one,
[Saying:] “Let us tear their bands apart
And cast their cords away from us!”
The very One sitting in the heavens will laugh;
Jehovah himself will hold them in derision.
At that time he will speak to them in his anger
And in his hot displeasure he will disturb them,
[Saying:] “I, even I, have installed my king
Upon Zion, my holy mountain.”

This sounds like all the kings of the earth, but Peter shows this scripture applied to the gathering of Pontius Pilate and the Gentile kings against Jesus:

"Sovereign Lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them, and who through holy spirit said by the mouth of our forefather David, your servant, ‘Why did nations become tumultuous and peoples meditate upon empty things? The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers massed together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’ Even so, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with [men of] nations and with peoples of Israel were in actuality gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, in order to do what things your hand and counsel had foreordained to occur." (Acts 4:24-28)

My point is, the grand language of the Bible is often applied by us in the 21st century as apocalyptical and global, but its application is often more local or limited - as with the case of Psalm 2, of which the first half was fulfilled in Peter's day (or as with Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom, which really only stretched to the edge of his own kingdom).

In Revelation 11, the main theme is that of the Temple. It begins with a Temple that can be measured, and trampled... and ends with the unveiling of the heavenly Temple.

When the Temple in Jerusalem ceased to be in 70AD, it was "replaced", pictorially speaking, with the Temple in heaven. This is what I think Rev 11 is alluding to.

The other reason I brought up Nebuchadnezzar, is that I think a similar thing is going on in Rev 11. Nebuchadnezzar himself acknowledged that heaven ruled, and that it was God who gave him authority to rule:

"... seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it." (Daniel 4:25)

God is ultimately in control, and can appoint rulers when He so chooses. He did so with Nebuchadnezzar over Babylon, and I think Rev 11 is an indication He did so again around 70AD.

In fact, if you read Josephus, that Jewish historian was convinced that God HAD appointed Vespasian to be ruler of the Roman empire. Josephus himself had received a dream regarding both Vespasian and his son Titus, and this general did indeed become Roman emperor, preventing the fall of the empire after Nero died, and the civil war that followed in 69AD, the famous "Year Of The Four Emperors".

So I think Rev 11 symbolizes the destruction of the Jewish Temple (70AD), the trampling by the Romans on the holy city for 42 months (70-73AD until Masada was captured), and Vespasian's unexpected rise to become emperor... likely appointed by God over Rome, just as Nebuchadnezzar was appointed by God over Babylon. God had taken his great power and begun ruling as king.

Keep in mind, that some chapters earlier, the ones who were slaughtered were told to rest "a little while longer". (Rev 6:11) Imagine being a Christian in the 1st century reading those words... would YOU want to be the one to tell them those words don't apply to them, but to people 1,900 years in the future?

However, if Rev 6 commenced shortly after Jesus' death (33AD), and covered all of the slaughtered souls who were witnesses of Jesus, then IF they did receive some kind of reward around 70AD, it would indeed only have been "a little while longer" for them to wait, as promised.

I appreciate it might be hard to accept that even the latter part of Rev 11 happened around 70AD, because of its "kingdom of the world" apocalyptic language... but keep in mind, this is the very same kind of language Jesus used in his day (and John the Baptist), when he talked about the kingdom of God being NEAR.

thanks for your interpretational clarificationism(s).

So...according to your statement..."then IF they did receive some kind of reward around 70AD,...it seems you prefer to think the resurrection (of certain ones?) has already occurred?/is and will continue to occur?(of certain ones or all dead?)

???