Paradise Cafe Discussions - A Place For Bible Research And Christian Encouragement

Good morning all ... :giverose::grouphug:

I have started this thread in response to a new member, Jemima, and comment they made on the welcome thread regarding John 17:3 ...

3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

The comment made was ...

Jesus said " This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you the only true God and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3) He didn't say one gained everlasting life solely on the basis of what one 'feels'.

Knowledge is the thing that allows us to evaluate what we take in from God's word; we meditate on it and analyse how we feel about what it says.
The first 'port of call' is the mind, then it gets down to the heart and then we are motivated to act.

Those who only take emotions into consideration are wide open to manipulation. Without logic, the heart can run away, without heart, we cannot feel the love of God...so both are important. But Jesus said 'knowledge' leads to life.

(sorry for taking so long ... company popped in and I had to go downstairs ... :blush: )

My thoughts ...:love::thinking:

I enjoyed seeing how you are striving, as we all here, to find the correct BALANCE in some of our Biblical reasoning ...

For without the MIND :thinking: one cannot even hope to begin on the journey toward a spiritual connection to our heavenly Father and his Son and our vast heavenly family :innocent: ... and without the HEART :heartbeat: we could NEVER get there at all ...:(

However, and I say this totally respectfully without any idea of sounding contradictory, :love: I personally, through reading through God's Word for most of my life, think it may be the HEART that is the 'port of call' in the BEGINNING of our spiritual journey rather than the 'mind' ...

For as you said above ... it is the HEART that MOTIVATES :happyheart::heartbeat: us to do what we do in life is it not ... and is it not the HEART that our God and his Son 'searches' and 'examines' ...?

I also noted another point you mentioned on the 'heart' that caused you concern about its 'reliability' ...

I don't go for the emotional stuff really. I see some getting all carried away with emotion...tears and outbursts...clapping of hands and expletives, but their faith has little to do with knowledge. Emotions can blind people to the truth. Appealing to the emotions is ok up to a point, (as Jesus illustrated in his teachings) but that's not what he said would gain us life. We actually need to be careful of that 'treacherous' heart. (Jer 17:9, 10)

You know, when I read this I felt kind of sad because we NEED the 'emotional stuff' ... indeed was it not EMOTION on our heavenly Father's part and his Son's that lead them to find a way to reclaim what was lost?

It was their loving hearts :heartbeat: for mankind that prompted their 'minds' to find a way to make redemption for man possible wouldn't you agree?

Was it not our Lord's HEART :heartbeat: that prompted his HEALING of people when he came to earth, his hearts COMPASSION that kept motivating him to speak and teach the saying that would bring life to those who listened ... and would it not be the binding of these hearts in that unbreakable cord that would ensure our remaining faithful to the end?

Once our hearts are involved then our minds begin to want to learn and grow in LOVE for our God ... for is not LOVE the GREATEST thing there is in our worship of our Father? And does not this 'love' come from the HEART and not just the MIND ... for lack of a better word that I can't come up with right now ... 'verification' of the sureness, logicalness, and proofs that this love is REAL and NECESSARY to have in our lives?

Love or 'emotion' need NOT overshadow reasoning ... for in my years of lif'es experience I have tended to find quite the OPPOSITE ...

When we let 'intellect' or 'reasoning' become the focus or main drive of something it is THAT 'logical' type of reasoning that can overshadow the HEART and cause whatever we are seeking to learn about to somehow become barren and cold and clinical ... losing therefore the WARMTH, the CLOSENESS, the DEPTH, the HEIGHTH and the BREADTH of all that our relationship with our heavenly Father and his Son can bring us! :friends::heartbeat:

It is in KNOWING, not just 'having knowledge' of our Father and his Son that will give us ETERNAL LIFE!!

Just having 'knowledge' of someone doesn't mean we REALLY KNOW them. There is much much more as I know you would agree! :thumbsup:

Hopefully I said this ok ... kind of lost my train of thought when company came, actually they are still here but I wanted to get something down since I started it ... :post: :redface: Now I have to run downstairs and have visit but will check back later ... :hibye:

May our God and his Son richly bless you ... :present: :happyheart:

Your sis, BR :sheepy::bouncyhearts:

PS ... changed the name of thread at the last minutes so I will correct it on the welcome page ... ;)

Hello BR sweetheart, how are you?

I think there should be a balance of emotion and reasoning within all our relationships, not only the most important, the one we have with God.

I have a friend sucked into an abusive relationship. Her emotion and love for her partner overrule the reasoning that should tell her her partner is manipulative and cruel. Being threatened with her partner committing suicide should she leave, being told where to go, who to see, how to dress, being told she is feeble and weak - if her reasoning had not been set aside because of her (often conflicting) emotions, she would see this.

Many christians live similarly. Being familiar with the pentecostal side of christianity I see how emotion really can overrule everything else, even manipulative churches. The emotional services also conceal the lack of real change and fruit in peoples' lives.

However, a relationship cannot be built on our reasoning only. I love my husband with all of my emotions. However, my reasoning tells me he loves me back, he provides for me and our children, he spends time with us, he gives up his own wants for ours, he speaks to me with love and respect. IN this relationship, there is a balance of emotion and reason.

We are told the greatest commandment is to Love the Lord our God with all our hearts and soul and minds. With everything we are. That love cannot be unemotional in nature. It is reasonable to love God because of who He is and what he is done, but, as we get to know him properly, as we spend time in his presence, we love him with our hearts too, because He creates in us a new heart, one that is turned to Him.

I remember my first few meetings as a Christian after the synagogue, the church was a small pentecostal group that met in a hired room in a sports centre. One sunday there was a football match and people were getting excited and cheering loudly. And the pastor said "We should be so much more excited about God than a group of people could be about a ball game."

And he was right. It is reasonable to want to be emotionally connected to our God as much as to any human family member. I love to worship in a place where people are free to be demonstrative, but I am also wary not to be carried away by emotion that is not merely a part of a deep, proper relationship with the living God.

Balance, balance, balance. Loving the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and mind. Thats everything. We can't be scared to be emotional with our God either. Loving someone with all our hearts is pretty overwhelming, but is balanced out by all of our souls and all of our minds. Our logical parts, and our emotional parts. When we truly know God there will be no imbalance anyway.

I can't fault that at-all Malkah, balance to avoid emotion or knowledge leading us astray.

I'm always a little concerned by the use some faiths make of John 17:3. Here Jesus is addressing our Father at the last supper, shortly after the penny had dropped with the apostles that he was going back to Him. Thus the words:


"THEIR [the apostles] taking in knowledge"

His words - in their hearing, to Almighty God Himself - would have been an incredible support to them! With their lord about to be executed for blasphemy and they themselves to be hunted on the same grounds, their faith could easily have been extinguished - a few years of their lives spent following a preacher before returning to their families and their proper jobs. Where would we be if the apostles had treated his death as the end? if they hadn't exercised that faith? where would the Greek scriptures be, where would our lives be? But just understanding that Jesus' short time with them was only the beginning would really strengthen them.

My concern though is that reason becomes a joust - often a quest to be right - where every tiny thing has to be considered and proved or disproved. All very scientific, but when we approach our Heavenly Friends and our spirit simply smiles toward Them, do we really have any proofs of anything in our minds? Any doctrine at-all?! Perhaps the excesses of emotion from some is partly a kind of "more faithful and logic-less rebuttal" to the endless Christian discussions which can be seen as a wearing-down assault to our faith at times. It's little wonder that some see reasoning on the scriptures as a ploy by the adversary, no matter how well-meant. I think we would all be less defensive and all be more reasonable if we had that balance.

IMHO

Acts5v29

The emotional, intellectual and spiritual....and the full wholeness of ourselves as humans....finds its common focal point in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This pretty much puts it in a nutshell. Thank you Derek. Very concise and to the point. :yes:

All I would add is "the full wholeness of ourselves as humans....finds its common focal point in the Lord Jesus Christ".....to the glory of God the Father.

Emotion has its place, but it should not overshadow the all important knowledge. WHAT we believe matters more than THAT we believe. (James 2:19)

Beliefs can be hijacked by emotion. Feelings are powerful...the heart can overrule the head, which is why Jeremiah said it was "treacherous". :happyheart:

Justification for wrong beliefs or actions come out of the heart.
Sadly, more Christians succumb to moral sin because of this "partner in crime" that is beating in our chest, than for any other reason. :cry:

The word for knowledge in Greek is gnosis and strongs says this:

G1108
γνῶσις
gnōsis
gno'-sis
From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.

The word translated knowledge in John 17:3 is not gnosis but ginōskō and strongs says this:

G1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
ghin-oce'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

Notice that one of the meaning this word has is `feel` and another is `known`. Unfortunately the NWT renders the verse in a very clinical way thus:


Joh 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.


Notice the `of you` part! If I wanted to know about some long dead historical figure I would take in knowledge `of them` and about them. I would never get to to know them themselves. I would know of them but not know them. See the difference? The WT has a vested interest is obscuring direct relationship with Jesus as we all know, for the purpose of governing body direct control. So they render the verse in this clinical way, which would be OK if the underling Greek word was knosis but it isn't. Of course the verse itself is spoken as if addressing God and Jesus directly and personally and this is to get over the idea of intimacy even though Jesus is referring to himself. This is in line with the intended meaning of the verse, not in some distant abstract fashion. Notice how the ISV translates the same verse.


Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent-Jesus Christ.

Relationship with the Father and Son is what is being talked about here. Its knowing a person, all about them, not knowing of them.

See the verses here at the end of Jesus` prayer in the same chapter:

Joh 17:25 "Righteous Father, the world has never known you. Yet I have known you, and these men have known that you sent me.

Joh 17:26 I made your name known to them, and will continue to make it known, so that the love you have for me may be in them and I myself may be in them."

The name being made known in these verse, and word for known here is the same word as in verse 3, is not Jehovah in the sense of just a name, as that would have taken five seconds to make known, and being Jewish they would have all known it already. Knowing the name here is about what it means and who it means, who the person is and actually having a relationship with them as Jesus says he knows his Father. He connects the word love with this type of knowing. Feelings are definitely involved in this word, and at the same time intellectual type knowledge. Both are needed for any two way relationship. If such a relationship really exists between us and Jesus and his Father, our hearts will not get misled by over emotional unstableness and its treacherous side because God can actually tell us and we will hear a rebuke. Thats the whole point of relationship. Its a two way thing and that is what Jesus is talking about in John 17:3, both mind and heart united together via a relationship with God. No separation between the two:

Joh 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, so that they may be one, just as we are one.

Dear BruisedReed,

I appreciated your thoughts very much. Our hearts cannot be removed from the process of discovering the Eternal Father. When our hearts are involved there is something that we cannot quite pinpoint. We feel something deep in our hearts and in our souls. There is a stirring in our hearts that moves us to the core.

It is when we go within to discover the Father within that we discover the Eternal Father for the first time. Since we are finite creatures, the Infinite Father solved that problem by sending pieces of Himself to live in our minds. True knowledge comes from accessing this divine gift. You could say that this gift is pre-mind or pre-human mind.

When we discover this divine gift we are born of the spirit. We "know" that when we die we will continue on and work hard at becoming more and more like the Eternal Father. But even now this "knowingness" helps us to live this life as human beings. Our Master showed us by the way that he lived his life the best way to be a human being. That said, each one of us is unique. The way that we live our lives is a fresh and new approach.

Our Master also had a piece of the Eternal Father dwelling within his mind when he was here on our planet. He chose to listen to this divine gift. He loved His Eternal Father so much that his will and the will of the Father were one. As we progress in "knowledge" of the Infinite Father we are moved to align our will with His will. We are so touched by His unconditional love that we desire to become one with Him.

The key to "knowledge" is a personal relationship with our Eternal Father. This is not an external kingdom. Jesus used an illustration to help his first century compatriots understand how they could come to know our Heavenly Father. Each of us come to know our Eternal Father as we go within. The knowledge that leads to everlasting life starts with a relationship. It is when we discover that we are precious and loved children of God. We stand before the Father in freedom as a son of God or a daughter of God. Our ascent into eternity begins when we desire to unite with our Eternal Father.

Each day our "knowledge" grows as we make the effort to love just one more person. If the Father of us all loves us all equally, can we love just one more person that is hard to love? The world at large will change when each individual recognizes that we are not separate from each other. Each person has a piece of the Eternal Father living within them. If that is the case then we should try to love them just as the Father loves us. Imagine if the whole world were to begin thinking like that. We would be living on a paradise on earth.

The left side of our brains contain our intellectual side. The frontal cortex is where our emotions are located. The right side of our brains contains our creativity. We need all these facets of our mind. But intellect alone is not enough to "know" the Father. You can imagine that the mind of the Son is unimaginable. But what connects us to him is his deeply compassionate heart. We are moved to become like him, not due to his intellect, but due to his heart, filled with love and compassion unimaginable.

If we were just to have head knowledge of the Father that would not be enough. As we develop our relationship with the Father within we become to "know" the Eternal Father as we live a life that reflects that knowledge. The "knowing" is in the living. When we live a life in actuality that reflects the love of the Father is when we are actually coming to "know" the Eternal Father.

Your words, BruisedReed, were like music spoken to my heart. It is like our strings were vibrating on the same frequency. That is the way that it is with the Father within. It is like His voice is singing to our hearts. We respond to this "music' in the deepest parts of our souls. It is that feeling that you get when you hear an indescribably beautiful piece of music. It touches your heart and your soul in a way that cannot be described in words. When we discover the Father within and build a relationship with Him it is like we are responding to a beautiful piece of music that is singing to our souls.

Amen!

Love,
Paul

Good evening all ...:hibye:

Thanks for the Greek words Seraphim! I too noticed that there was a DIFFERENCE of Greek word used myself ... and I too focused in on the 'feeling' part of the definition.

For to me just having 'knowledge' of something is just not enough ... and as dear Malkah said a striving for BALANCE between heart and mind is completely necessary in regards to our having FAITH ...

For when you come right down to it ... I think that is one reason why it can be stifling and confining if we 'intellectualize' (a word?... if not I like it anyway ... :P) everything.

Faith for instance is not really some that can be explained through intellect alone ... for it involves something much deeper and stystemic about our inner selves ... our connection to the invisible and the unexplainable things does it not ...?

It is soooo beautiful though when we FEEL it ... when we HAVE it ... and NOTHING and NOONE can take it away from us if we don't allow them to!

When it comes to 'just' knowledge perhaps this illustration may fit ...

We may have a 'knowledge', even an extensive one for example of our neighbour ...

We know his name, when he was born, if he is married, has children, their names and the name of his wife, we may know the time he goes to work and comes home, what kind of flowers he likes from the garden he has, what kinds of foods he may cook on his barbeque, we may even say hello everyday and ask about the weather and his job and family and the list could go on and on ...

But does all this 'knowledge' help us to really 'know' ... to 'understand' this person on a PERSONAL and INTIMATE level ...?

How can it when we haven't been MOTIVATED to go beyond what we 'see' ... to get to 'feel' FOR the person ... to 'connect' on deeper issues and have experiences together that would help to mesh and bind each other into a RELATIONSHIP ...

Now we are speaking of something totally different aren't we ... for now we go BEYOND just being 'neighbours' ... and become FRIENDS ...

I think that is the same way we may need to feel about our heavenly father and his son ...

They need to go beyond just being our God and Examplar, Redeemer, Savior etc ...

We have to go byond just being a 'follower', 'servant' or even 'worshipper' and become a PART of the whole spiritual family in HEAVEN and here on earth!

I found this definition of 'knowledge' ...

Knowledge is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as (i) expertise, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject; (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information; or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation. Knowledge acquisition involves complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning. The term knowledge is also used to mean the confident understanding of a subject with the ability to use it for a specific purpose if appropriate.

Now, when I looked up the definition for 'know or knowing' I found it to be a wee bit more 'emtional' in nature IMHO ...

• know how to do or perform something
• be aware of the truth of something; have a belief or faith in something; regard as true beyond any doubt;
• be familiar or acquainted with a person or an object;
• have firsthand knowledge of states, situations, emotions, or sensations; "I know the feeling!";
• acknowledge: accept (someone) to be what is claimed or accept his power and authority;
• have fixed in the mind;
• know the nature or character of;
• perceive as familiar; "I know this voice!"

I kind of liked that last one as it reminded me of Jesus' words where he said his 'sheep would KNOW his voice ... they would recognize it was he and thus truth!:giverose:

So, to me the word ... KNOW for this verse in John 17:3 really gets to the MEANING of what is meant ...:read: it goes beyond just the 'legalistic or letter law' like thinking (Pharisaical) and get to the SPIRIT of the law or meaning of what will gain us life ...

Not just the knowledge that our Father and his Son live in heaven, that they are to honored, revered, woshipped, and loved, that they are spirit beings, that they want the best for us and will do what they must to make it happen, that they will reward us for doing good, that they will punish in justice those who deserve it, and so and so on ...

Yes, we can gain much 'knowledge' from just reading the Bible can we not?

Ah but KNOWING our Father and his Son, Christ Jesus, takes us on a much DEEPER spirtual journey ... and one that is so beautiful and so heart-stirring that indeed our hearts SHOULD well up in us ... our faith SHOULD overflow from all of our being ... our love for everyone SHOULD emcompass all we say and do ... our hope SHOULD stir in us a fervor of security and peace that will only make our 'mind' ... our 'intellect' grow more sure of what we will come KNOW!

Oh my, sorry for rambling on so ... its been a very long day for me and I probably haven't made much sense ...

But we are told by Christ to worship our God with our whole ...

HEART
SOUL
MIND

Matt. 22:37 ...

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

Darby Bible Translation
And he said to him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy understanding.

And notice what Jesus put FIRST on the list!;):P:siskiss::whistle::happyheart:

Well, gotta run off to bed :jogging:

Love to all ... BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Hi Paul,

I just read your post after I posted mine ...

Beau ... teee ... full ... :rose: :rose::rose:

Amen my bro! :thumbsup:

Luv me :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

Re: "It is that feeling that you get when you hear an indescribably beautiful piece of music. It touches your heart and your soul in a way that cannot be described in words. When we discover the Father within and build a relationship with Him it is like we are responding to a beautiful piece of music that is singing to our souls."

Here's some :coolmusic: ...(imo)...

O sole mio (enrico caruso)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1QJwHWvgP8

:coolmusic:

Hi Jemima if you are reading here,

Yes, I do aree the heart can be treacherous for an ignorant and disobedient heart is evil.

Proverbs 3:5 ''Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding". It will become good when its possessor learns how to do the will of God. When it says that the heart is 'bad from youth up' I believe it means that we are born with sin and need to work to resist the temptations that our emotions may lead us to.

Our mind and its logic can lead us away from God too. It's interesting that Romans 8:7 says "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot".

Further on our mind I found a quote from Theologian J.I. Packer: - "Man's mind becomes free only when its thoughts are brought into captivity to Christ and His Word; till then, it is at the mercy of sinful prejudice and dishonest mental habits within, and of popular opinion, organized propaganda and unquestioned commonplaces without. Tossed about by every wing of intellectual fashion and carried to and fro by the cross-currents of reaction, man without God is not free for truth; he is for ever mastered by the things he takes for granted, the victim of a hopeless and everlasting relativism."

Back to the heart...the condition of our heart is one's greatest concern. It determines every aspect of life and ultimately determines our love for God and for others. It determines who we are and what we do particularly in regard to our worship. If we withhold our heart from our Father and give out only logic, Isaiah 29:13 comes to my mind.


:heartbeat:Tessa

Good morning all! :giverose:

What beautiful heart and faith stirring comments! :rose: :heartbeat:

You know I was thinking on this topic most of yesterday as I was shopping and doing chores and stuff and I come back this morning and lo and behold I find even more wonderful things to reflect upon.

Thanks so much guys and gals, my dears bros and sis's! :grouphug:

Dearest Tessa ...

When I read over your words this morninga and got to the end where you cited Isa. 29:13 I was already thinking of a scripture that I wanted to put up ... and wouldn't ya know it ... well I'll put yours up and then mind and see if we are 'fitly united in the same line of thought' ... ;):siskiss::whistle::friends:

By the by there were such a number of ways of saying this verse to really drive home the point and message of the DANGER of just being in our 'heads' ... just having KNOWLEDGE that I thought I would post a few translations ... :love:

Isa. 29:13 ...

New International Version (©1984)
The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And so the Lord says, "These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Lord says, "These people worship me with their mouths and honor me with their lips. But their hearts are far from me, and their worship of me is [based on] rules made by humans.

King James Bible
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Bible in Basic English
And the Lord said, because this people come near to me with their mouths, and give honour to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, and their fear of me is false, a rule given them by the teaching of men;

Webster's Bible Translation
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of men:

I was thinking of this scripture ... and Jesus was thinking of yours ... :read:

Matt. 15:8 ...

New International Version (©1984)
"'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

Yes, the Scribes and Pharisees were very well versed in the law were they not? The had a deep and vast KNOWLEDGE of the writings and spouted them off each and every day to the people, telling them HOW they had to worship their heavenly Father, and WHAT they were to believe the written word according to THEIR 'intrepretation' of it ...

And yet ...

JESUS SAID THEIR "KNOWLEDGE" DID THEM NO GOOD!!!!!!!

They had 'lost' something in the translation ... :(

their :heartbeat: HEARTS :heartbeat:

What was one of the things that our Lord tried to UNDO while he walked among us thankful humans (although most back then sadly were not so 'thankful' ...

Was it not SHOW what our Lord and his Father showed ... was it not to FEEL what they felt ...? :dontknow:

It is our ACTS of kindness, love, worship and so on ... and not only the ACTS by the MOTIVE behind these acts as well ...

And while going out speaking about our God and his Son is indeed very important and not to minimized ... it is by our showing PRACTICAL LOVING ACTS toward anyone we can when our circumstances permit (and sometimes even when they don't)

Dear Jem ... since we were in sin our hearts can and does at times mislead us in a direction that can steer us in the wrong direction ...

However, that is not to say as has been said that we can TEACH it ... TRAIN it ... NURTURE it ... STEER it in the right direction and then rely on it to MOVE us in the right direction ...

Don't be AFRAID of your heart ...

And now here I know you will say you are not ... but your very words seem to say that you need to stick in your head since your heart cannot be relied upon since it is treacherous ...

Passion is necessary for us to have if want to be ZEALOUS ... and where does 'passion' come from ...

Titus 2:14 ..

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

International Standard Version (©2008)
He gave himself for us to set us free from every wrong and to cleanse us so that we could be his special people who are enthusiastic about doing good deeds.

What does the meaning of being 'zealous' mean ...?

G2207 ζηλωτής

zēlōtēs dzay-lo-tace'

From G2206; a “zealot”: - zealous.

G2206 ζηλόω

zēloō dzay-lo'-o

From G2205; to have warmth of feeling for or against: - affect, covet (earnestly), (have) desire, (move with) envy, be jealous over, (be) zealous (-ly affect).

G2205 ζῆλος

zēlos dzay'-los

From G2204; properly heat, that is, (figuratively) “zeal” (in a favorable sense, ardor; in an unfavorable one, jealousy, as of a husband [figuratively of God], or an enemy, malice): - emulation, envy (-ing), fervent mind, indignation, jealousy, zeal.

G2204 ζέω

zeō dzeh'-o

A primary verb; to be hot (boil, of liquids; or glow, of solids), that is, (figuratively) be fervid (earnest): - be fervent.

Yes, it is our HEARTS that cause us to be 'zealous' ... to make us 'aglow with the spirt' ... to keep us from becoming 'lukewarm' in our worship (and we know where lukewarm will get us) :shocked: ...

And just one last point ... for now ... :P

We can have all the knowledge in the world, and even have the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of God, but if we do not let this knowledge motivate us, stir us, empassion us, then what good is it ...? :dontknow:

It is good for nothing ...

So, I say to our hearts ...

Burn baby burn!! :heartbeat::happyheart::hug:

Luv as always, BR :sheepy: :bouncyhearts:

An old friend of mine has a great saying "God doesn't do His deep work in shallow places " the shallow places referring to our emotions.



Being a book publishing Organization the WTBTS sells special Knowledge as the only way to God. They promote themselves as the only one with "the Truth " and " to come to " Jehovah's Organization for Salvation ".

So why not re-write the Scriptures to reflect that.

First a look at the verse in another translation.

3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


Now the NWT
3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.


First " is " gets changed to "means" This is and this means are 2 very different things.

Imagine a driving class and the instructer shows the student a sign and says "this means" there is a bend in the road. Now they go for a ride and the instructer points to a hair pin turn and says this is the bend in the road as you can see you really gotta slow down.


We also see in John 5 that it isn't taking in knowledge that brings Eternal life.

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.


The Jewish religious leaders had taken in lots of knowledge. There problem was they wouldn't come to Jesus in order to receive Eternal Life.

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”


So here we have the diff not taking in knowledge but in Jesus knowing " His Sheep" in having a personal day to day relationship with Him as Saviour.


I put it this way there are 2 guys who show up at the home of Wayne Gretzkey (world famous hockey player ). Joe knows everything you can about Wayne. All his game scores,every team he played on and for how long. He has all kinds of "knowledge" taken in about Wayne,the only problem is he doesn't actually know him.


The other guy Chris has been Wayne's best friend from grade school on they have shared many wonderful intimate things in life together.

Joe shows up at Wayne's house at 2AM knock on the door and Wayne answers. Then Wayne says hey man go away I don't know you come here again and I'll have the police haul you away.


Now Chris on the other hand shows up and Wayne answers the door calling Him by name " Chris " man so good to see you come on in it is so good to see you!


This is why in the NT Jesus doesn't call anyone by first name that is not one of His Sheep. ( not Judas,Caiphas,etc )


Look at Luke 16

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXsiWoyjw60

BB:happyheart::heartbeat::happyheart:

That's interesting BB, thanks for that. XXX


Agree with your point about knowing someone/knowing about them. In this hidious, celeb-obsessed world it becomes more amd more normal to know vast amounts of information about a person without ever having met them. People talk about celebrities as if they're best friends

(there's a woman called Katie Price/Jordan who never seems to be out of the British papers, and its not uncommon to hear people speaking about her life as if they are sharing it - but, like you said, if they turn up on her doorstep she wouldn't know them. Its actually a pretty scary phenomenon, its very deceptive, believing you know a person when you don't, and in these days of too much information its easy to immerse oneself in details of someone elses' life and really come to believe you have a relationship with that person.)

Many Christians are the same, knowing a lot about Jesus without ever having met him, spent time with him and listened to his voice. One of the things I tell people when speaking at churches is that the most important aspect of any Christian's life is time spent with Jesus. If we are his sheep, we know him and He knows us.